Sunday, December 31, 2023

Being "Generated" means the individual jiva-souls are part and parcel of a category of living entities called the "marginal living entities" (marginal plane) who eternally exist as individual spiritual PERSONS and are beginningless and endless like Krsna.

The jiva-souls “generated” from the "marginal plane" does NOT mean the jiva-souls “originated” from a beginning source because the jiva-souls were NEVER created.

This also means the jiva-souls did NOT originate from the impersonal (inactive) brahmajyoti, tatastha-sakti or the Body of Maha-Visnu.

The jiva-souls NEVER appeared from anyone (including Krsna), or some source called tatastha-sakti because they were NEVER created, the jiva-souls are eternal like Krsna who has ALWAYS existed.

Furthermore, the jiva-souls NEVER originated from the impersonal (inactive) brahmajyoti or the Body of Maha-Visnu (both an already fallen condition the jiva-souls fall too Prabhupada explains)

Srila Prabhupada - "So this temporary material world is the taṭastha (materially conditioned) characteristics, and the spiritual world is the permanent (personal) characteristics. So our effort is to get out of this taṭastha (materially conditioned) characteristics and enter the permanent (personal)  characteristics. That is called spiritual elevation." (Lecture CC, Madhya-lila 20.354-358, New York City, Dec 28, 1966)

Srila Prabhupada - "Because the individual soul is apt to fall down sometimes under the clutches of māyā, it is called taṭastha śakti." (Lecture BG, Ch 7 Text 4-5 Bombay, March 30, 1971)

Maya or material energy does NOT exist in the spiritual world however, free will always exists and allows the jiva-souls to make their own decisions, offerings, contributions etc and even accept or reject Krsna if they choose. 

Srimad Bhagavatam explains the fall down of the marginal living entity (jiva-soul) from Vaikuntha into the material creation in the 4th Canto Chapter 28 text 53, where the Supreme Lord is disguised as a brahmana.

The brāhmaṇa said - "My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can't you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world." (SB, Canto 4 Ch 28 text 53)

The brahman effulgence (impersonal brahmajyoti), is a "fallen condition" the jiva-souls fall down too but can never remain in that "fallen condition" eternally. 

Eventually, they are forced to leave that dormant inactive condition because the nature of the jiva-souls is to always be "active" in the service of Krsna and NOT remain inactive. 

So, eventually the fallen jiva-souls leave the impersonal brahmajyoti and again take birth in the material world.

Revatīnandana dasa - "Srila Prabhupāda you very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the jiva-soul then goes into the brahmajyoti, he is considered still fallen. Still fallen. Does that means the whole brahmajyoti is composed of fallen souls? You see my question? If I go there, I'm a jīva-soul, and I go to the brahmajyoti I'm still fallen."

Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes."

Revatīnandana dasa - "That means all jīva-souls there in the impersonal Brahman (Brahmajyoti) are also fallen souls?"

Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes, existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition (Goloka-Vrindavana and Vaikuntha). The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness.'' (Letter to Revatinandana, LA 13 June, 1970 and 1971 London)

We are all "old souls" because the jiva-souls have always existed without any beginning point nor will they ever cease to be.

There was no beginning to the marginal living entities (jiva-souls) existence, nor will there be an end as Bhagavad Gita As It Is explains. 

The individual jiva-souls are eternal living PERSONS as a spiritual bodily  form, who can NEVER be destroyed, terminated, divided into pieces or extinguished, the jiva-souls are indestructible.

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - “Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.” (BG, Ch 2 text 12, 1983)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - “As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change." (BG, Ch 2 text 13)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - “O son of Kuntī, the nonpermanent appearance of happiness and distress, and their disappearance in due course, are like the appearance and disappearance of winter and summer seasons. They arise from sense perception, O scion of Bharata, and one must learn to tolerate them without being disturbed." (BG, Ch 2 text 14)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - “Those who are seers of the truth have concluded that of the nonexistent [the material body] there is no endurance and of the eternal [the soul] there is no change. This they have concluded by studying the nature of both." (BG, Ch 2 text 16)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - “That which pervades the entire body you should know to be indestructible. No one is able to destroy that imperishable soul." (BG, Ch 2 text 17)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - “Neither he who thinks the living entity the slayer nor he who thinks it slain is in knowledge, for the self slays not nor is slain." (BG, Ch 2 text 19)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." (BG, Ch 2 text 20 “corrected” 1983 edition)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "O Pārtha, how can a person who knows that the soul is indestructible, eternal, unborn and immutable kill anyone or cause anyone to kill?" (BG, Ch 2 text 21)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, the soul similarly accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones." (BG, Ch 2 text 22)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "The soul can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind." (BG, Ch 2 text 23)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same." (BG, Ch 2 text 24)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "It is said that the soul is invisible, inconceivable and immutable. Knowing this, you should not grieve for the body." (BG, Ch 2 text 25)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "One who has taken his birth is sure to die, and after death one is sure to take birth again. Therefore, in the unavoidable discharge of your duty, you should not lament."  (BG, Ch 2 text 27)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "Some look on the soul as amazing, some describe him as amazing, and some hear of him as amazing, while others, even after hearing about him, cannot understand him at all." (BG, Ch 2 text 29)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "O descendant of Bharata, he who dwells in the material body can never be slain. Therefore, you need not grieve for any living being." (BG, Ch 2 text 30)

All individual jīva-souls are ETERNAL persons therefore there are no new jiva-souls being created because they have ALWAYS existed meaning they are beginningless and endless.

Srila Prabhupada – "There are no new souls, new and old are due to this material body, but the jiva-soul is never born and never dies, so if there is no birth, how can there be new souls?" (Letter to Jagadisa dasa, 9 July 1970)

If the jiva-souls choose, they CAN stay in the temporary decaying material universe's cycles of birth and death and cycles of annihilation and creations for an almost infinity!

There is no origin to Krsna's marginal energy (an unlimited number of individual jiva-souls), who have existed for as long as Krsna has existed, which is eternity.

Also, there is no Maya or material temptations or energy in the spiritual world because Maya does not exist there, therefore Maya is NEVER the cause of fall down. 

However, there is ALWAYS "free will" in the spiritual world Prabhupada explained in his room in Melbourne Temple in 1972 that allows the jiva-souls to choose for themselves how to act which includes accepting or rejecting Krsna.

So, why does Krsna allow the jiva-souls to have the independent freedom to even leave the Vaikuntha planets or Goloka Vrindavan if they choose?

Devotee – "In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krsna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krsna did not want us to come, why are we here?” Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?"

Srila Prabhupada - "That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?" (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C)

Srila Prabhupada  - "Free will means that you can act wrongly. That is free will. Unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then? If I act only one sided, that means I have no free will. Because we act sometimes wrongly, that means free will."

Hayagriva dasa - "A man may know better but still act wrongly."

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, but that is free will but misuses his free will, just like a thief who knows he is stealing, it is bad, but still he does it. That is free will. He cannot check his greediness, so in spite of his knowing that he is doing wrong thing—he will be punished, he knows; he has seen another thief, he was punished, he was put into prison— everything he knows, but still he steals. Why? Misuse of free will. But unless there can be misuse of free will, then there is no question of free will." (Excerpt from: Philosophy Discussions on Rene Descartes)

Acyutananda – "In Bhagavad Gita Krsna says, once coming to the spiritual world, the jiva-soul never returns to the material world, so He can return?"

Srila Prabhupada – "If he likes he can return, that is voluntary."

Guru-kripa – "How is it that one can become envious of Krsna?"

Srila Prabhupada – "You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God. God has got full independence, but you have got independence too, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, so if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown." (Mayapur Feb 19, 1976)

Paramahamsa - "But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return?"

Srila Prabhupada - "There is return if one wants, that is voluntary, return is there."

Paramahamsa - "If we want."

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes."

Paramahamsa - "So we can come to the spiritual world and return?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes."

Paramahamsa - "Fall down?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, as soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go and enjoy the material world, otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, all right, you enjoy like this, just like some of our students sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will. Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, "Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here." He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that."

Paramahamsa - "So our desire to enjoy, we achieve these material bodies; and our desire to achieve Krsna brings us to our natural position."

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes." (Cheviot Hills, May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada – "So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force." (Mayapur, June 20, 1973) 

Syamasundara Das - "Can we predict returning back home back to Godhead will be permanent? Can we predict that? Just like many prisoners leave the prison, however some do come back?"

Srila Prabhupada - "No, there is no permanent effect because we have got little independence. There is nothing permanent because you can misuse your independence at any time otherwise there is no meaning to free will."

Syamasundara Das - "And some come back?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, otherwise there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do this, you can do that. "All right. Whatever you like."

Devotee - "Then he is so many times falling down, again and again, so will he eventually permanently come back?"

Srila Prabhupada - "He has got independence, therefore there is always the possibility he can misuse his independence, he CAN fall down. That's why when a man is released from the prison house, that does not mean permanently because he can come back again, the general law is NOT to come back, but if he likes, he can come back, otherwise what is the meaning of independence? Just like one becomes free from the prison house, naturally he should not go there again." (Talk with Syamasundara on Henri Bergson philosophy)

Even though Krsna has promised there is no return to the material creation once returning to the spiritual worlds, the fact is there IS return if the jiva-souls want to return as Prabhupada explains above.

Most jiva-souls (90%) do not fall down but many cannot understand why one would ever leave Goloka-Vrindavana.

However, not all jiva-souls feel that way because less than 10% of jiva-souls in the spiritual world DO fall down to the material world.

Generally the only cause of fall down in most cases is the "free will" to make one's own choice to live separate from Krsna.

Another rare cause is offending great devotees like the gate keepers of Vaikuntha, Jai and Vijay did when they offended the four Kumaras by not letting them in to Vaikuntha (story in Srimad Bhagavatam)

The jiva-souls have "free will" eternally in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana as part and parcel of their marginal constitutional make up as perpetual living entities.

Dr. John Mize – "Did all the jiva-souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any jiva-souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?"

Srila Prabhupada – "No, there are… Majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down."

Dr. John Mize – "So we’re among the 10%."

Srila Prabhupada – Yes. Or less than that. In the material, whole material world all the living entities they are… Just like in the prison house, there is some population, but they are not majority. The majority of the population, they are outside the prison house. Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the spiritual world. Only a few fall down."

Dr. John Mize – "Does Krsna know ahead of time that a soul is going to be foolish and fall?"

Srila Prabhupada – "Krsna? Yes, Krsna may know because He is omniscient."

Dr. John Mize – "Are more jiva-souls falling all the time?"

Srila Prabhupada – "Not all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence. Everyone is not liking to misuse the independence. The same example: Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal. So their shelter must be also constructed. It is very easy to understand. Not that cent percent population will be criminal, but government knows that some of them will be. Otherwise why they construct prison house also? One may say, "Where is the criminal? You are constructing…" Government knows, there will be criminal. So if the ordinary government can know, why God cannot know? Because there is tendency."

Dr. John Mize – "The origin of that tendency (to fall from Goloka) is…?"

Srila Prabhupada – "Yes."

Dr. John Mize – "From where does that tendency come?"

Srila Prabhupada – "Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krsna says,yathecchasi tathä kuru. "Now you do whatever you like." (BG lecture, Mayapur, June 20, 1973)

Here is the taped conversation -

https://youtu.be/HatiYaOljJ8





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