When fall down from the Vaikuntha planets and Goloka-Vrindavana takes place, it means the jiva-souls fall down from an already "non-fallen" condition.
The jiva-souls fall to the material creation first generally by choice (free will), and then after many millions of births in the material creation, fall further to impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti, after becoming fed up and frustrated within the material existence trapped in a temporary material bodily vessel in the cycle of repeated birth and death.
In this way, the frustrated fallen jiva-souls attempt to extinguish their existence by seeking out an "inactive state of consciousness," or a dormant state within the impersonal Brahmajyoti to escape the suffering of repeated birth and death, and trying to enjoy the temporary decaying material creation they mistakenly believe is their home.
Also, never did the jiva-souls first originate from that impersonal Brahmajyoti as some fools believe.
They foolishly claim, from clear sheet (meaning dormant or inactive) of consciousness called tatastha-sakti the jiva-souls originate.
The correct understanding of tatastha-sakti is it is a fallen conditional state, so the jiva-souls certainly never originated from an already fallen condition. There is no such place as tatastha-sakti where souls originate from.
The marginal plane (the category the individual jiva-souls are under) is not place like that. The marginal living entities or jiva-souls are known as tatastha-sakti only in their conditional state when active in the material creation, and inactive (dormant) in the impersonal Brahmajyoti.
The jiva-souls have many names that each describe the particular "conditional state" they are in.
But not in Goloka-Vrindavana and Vaikuntha, the jiva-souls there are NOT in a conditioned state, they are in their original perpetual position as Krsna's eternal servant, who can voluntarily express themselves in unlimited forms they choose to be throughout the spiritual world.
In the spiritual world everything is alive, from a blade of grass, to a chair, a chariot, a flag pole, a bird, a cow, a cow herd boy or girl etc.
Therefore, in the spiritual world, the jiva-souls they are not known as tatastha-sakti.
Tatastha-sakti (the marginal potency or living entities) is not a place, it is a description of the jiva-souls while in the "conditioned" state.
Some say the jiva-souls are generated from tatastha-saki which technically needs to be further explained.
This is because tatastha-sakti is a name describing the already conditioned fallen state of the marginal living entity (jiva-souls) outside of the Vaikuntha planets and Goloka-Vrindavana.
The correct understanding is the jiva-souls are in the category known as the "marginal potency or marginal living entities" who are individual jiva-souls that are part of a collective called Krsna's marginal energy.
This means the jiva-souls are not literally generated from some place in the cosmos, that idea is imagination because the marginal living entities (jiva-souls) never originated from anywhere, they are eternal like Krsna, without beginning or end as Bhagavad Gita As It Is teaches. There is no such "place" as tatastha-sakti, it is a word describing a fallen conditioned state the jiva-souls have fallen too.
The fact is, the individual jiva-souls are NOT generated from anywhere because they have no origin, they have always existed as part and parcel of the marginal category of Krsna's eternal energies.
The english word "generated" can be misleading in this regards, because many think it means a beginning, or a point of origin.
In Srimad Bhagavatam the use of this word "generated" means the jiva-souls are part and parcel of a category called the "marginal energy or potency," where one finds unlimited eternal individual jiva-souls who represent the marginal category of living entities.
This category of unlimited "eternal" individual jiva-souls, are perpetually known as the marginal potency of Krsna's energy. This clearly means the jiva-souls were never created or generated from any origin.
Like Krsna, there also is NO origin for the jiva-souls.
So, the proper understanding is, the marginal energy or potency, IS an unlimited collection of individual jiva-souls who surround Krsna like the sun-rays surround the Sun-disc.
However, the jiva-souls are NOT impersonal or a spark in the effulgence like the sun-rays are, and Kṛṣṇa is NOT impersonal, like the Sun-disc is in the above anology.
Both Krsna and the jiva-souls are eternal PERSONS who can never exist separately from each other. The jiva-souls are always simultaneously dependent on Krsna as an individual persons, who have their own personality separate from Krsna's Personality.
The marginal potency IS eternal individual jiva-souls who all came from their perpetual active home of Goloka-Vrindavana, where they have existed eternally.
This means they were NEVER created.
From there, they can voluntarily enter Visnu's pastimes within any Vaikuntha planet they choose, or they can leave Vaikuntha anytime they like and enter the material temporary creation.
The spiritual worlds, the material creation, and the impersonal brahmajyoti, all have unlimited individual jiva-souls existing in different categories of existence, from active, to inactivity within the impersonal Brahmajyoti.
The jiva-souls are always in the category of the marginal potency (individual living entities known also as the jiva-tattva) who can choose to exist in the spiritual world, the material creation or the impersonal Brahmajyoti.
Only the material energy is created and is also temporary, while the marginal living entities (jiva-souls) are eternal, they were never created, nor did they originate or were generated from outside of Goloka-Vrindavana.
As said above, the word tatastha-sakti is a fallen conditional state of the jiva-souls used after they have left Goloka- Vrindavana and Vaikuntha.
The individual marginal living entities (jiva-souls) are Krsna's energy who are eternal, they can never be the energetic (Krsna) or Visnu-tattva.
All rebellious jiva-souls (less than 10%) enter first the material creation after leaving Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana via the dreams of Maha-Visnu, and not from the inactive impersonal Brahmajyoti and tatastha-sakti, as some claim.
Srila Prabhupada - "The jiva-souls are marginal which means the jiva-souls may be under the control of the spiritual energy, or they may be under the control of material energy. But when the jiva-souls are under the control of the material energy, that is their precarious condition, struggle for existence. And when they are under spiritual energy, that is their original position and life of freedom." (Los Angeles, Nov 23, 1968)
Therefore, being "generated" from the marginal plane does NOT mean "originating" from the marginal plain because there is no origin of the jiva-souls, they are ETERNALLY part and parcel of the marginal plain that has always existed and has no origin.
The word "marginal" simply means the jiva-souls exist sometimes under the influence of the spiritual energy, or sometimes under the material energy.
Srila Prabhupada - "The jiva-souls are Krsna's marginal energy. Marginal energy means we can live either in this external energy or in the internal energy, in between. So at the present moment we are living in the external energy. But this external energy is also Kṛṣṇa's energies, God's energy. It is not different from Him. But the external energy means we are captivated by the external energy. But the external energy is not permanent. The internal energy is permanent. The spiritual world is permanent, and the jiva-souls are also permanent as Bhagavad Gita As It Is Chapter 2 text 20 (1983 edition) reveals." (Lecture on BG 9.4 -Melb, April 23, 1976)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is Chapter 2 text 20 explains the jiva-souls have existed for "infinity" which means, just like Krsna, they are beginning less and endless, and were NEVER created-
"For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." (BG Ch 2 text 20 "correct" 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is Chapter 2 text 12 also confirms the jiva-souls were NEVER created.
This is because they have no origin and have existed for infinity like Krsna has, as Krsna explains-
"Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be." (BG 2.12)
The jiva-souls and Kṛṣṇa have always existed.
Srila Prabhupada – "There are no new souls, new and old are due to this material body, but the jiva-soul is never born and never dies, so if there is no birth, how can there be new souls?" (Letter to Jagadisa dasa, 7/9/1970)
Srila Prabhupada - ''Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness." (Letter to Revatinandana, Los Angeles 13 June, 1970)
Srila Prabhupada - "We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." (Lecture on BG, Aug 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - ''These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha." (Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970)
Tatastha-sakti refers only to those who are already fallen, those "conditioned" in the material creation and who have further fallen to the impersonal Brahmajyoti.
In other words, tatastha-sakti does not describe the jiva-souls in their original "none-fallen" position in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana.
Tatastha-sakti is a name describing the none Krsna conscious fallen condition of the jiva-souls.
Srila Prabhupada - "So this material world is the taṭastha (conditioned) characteristics, and the spiritual world is the "personal" characteristics. So our effort is to get out of this taṭastha (conditioned) characteristics and to enter the permanent characteristics. That is called spiritual elevation." (Lecture on CC Madhya-lila 20.354-358, New York, Dec 28, 1966)
Srila Prabhupada - "Because the individual soul is apt to fall down sometimes under the clutches of māyā, it is called taṭastha-śakti. Just like in the seaside the shore, the beach, sometimes you see it is covered by water and sometimes it is land; similarly, when we are covered by māyā, that is our jīva-bhūta stage, and when there is no more covering, that is brahma-bhūta stage. When we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, then we are brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20), and when we are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, we are materially conscious, that is māyā." (Lecture on BG 7.4-5 - Bombay, March 30, 1971)
The marginal living entities or jiva-souls are not called tatastha-sakti in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana as Prabhupada explains above because tatastha-sakti means a fallen "conditioned" designation.
The word tatastha-sakti refers to the marginal living entities (jiva-souls) in their fallen conditioned state in both the material creation and when dormant in the (impersonal) Brahmajyoti.
Revatīnandana - "Srila Prabhupāda you very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the jiva-soul then goes into the brahmajyoti, he is considered still fallen. Still fallen. Does that means the whole brahmajyoti is composed of fallen souls? You see my question? If I go there, I'm a jīva-soul, and I go to the brahmajyoti I'm still fallen."
Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes."
Revatīnandana - "That means all jīva-souls there in the impersonal Brahman (Brahmajyoti) are also fallen souls?"
Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes, existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition (Goloka-Vrindavana and Vaikuntha). The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness.'' (Letter to Revatinandana, Los Angeles 13 June, 1970 and 1971 London)
The jiva-soul's original position in Goloka Vrindavana from where they originated from, have the same bodily features as Krsna-
sat,
cit,
ananda,
vigraha.
Which means-
Eternity,
Knowledge,
Bliss.
Form.
In the jiva-souls full potential, they are all a perpetual bodily form like Krsna's two-arm bodily form in their eternal position in their home of Goloka-Vrindavana.
In other words, the original feature of all marginal living entities (jīva-souls) is a two-arm form like Krsna's Body Prabhupada explains.
Devotee – "Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Yes, human form. God is also human form. "Man is made after the shape of God." I think there is in the Bible. Is it not? So God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs."
Hari-sauri – "How do we understand, then, that there are peacocks and flowers and trees in the spiritual world? Are these not eternal forms?"
Srila Prabhupada – "[describing material form first] Yes, they are more covered, just like if you cover your body with blanket, the hands and legs are invisible. But you are not the blanket. So the trees and plants, they are more covered. They are not in full manifestation. The human form is the full manifestation of the soul."
Hari-sauri - "Are they covered in the spiritual world?"
Srila Prabhupada - "Not in the spiritual world, there that is voluntary. Some devotee wants to serve Krsna as flower; they become flower there. If I want to be a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Krsna and become flower, voluntarily, and can change from flower to human body if one desires. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Krsna as cow, he serves Krsna as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. It is inconceivable, yet a fact." (SB Canto 6.1.1-4 - Melb, May 20, 1975)
Srila Prabhupada - "As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere." (Hare Krsna Happening record album, New York, Dec 1966)
Srila Prabhupada - "So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?’ I immediately fall down." (Lecture July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.)
Srila Prabhupada - ''The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha (eternally liberated), because God is eternal and His part and parcels, the living entities, they are also eternal. So that is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha, sädhana-siddha, krpa-siddha-there are different grades. They are all described in The Nectar of Devotion. So one can become sadhana-siddha." (CC lecture, July 13, 1976)
Srila Prabhupada - ''By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can also become siddha. He can become AGAIN nitya-siddha (eternally liberated)." (Lecture on CC, July 13, 1976)
Srila Prabhupada - "So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas (eternally conditioned) AGAIN nitya-siddha (eternally liberated), to bring them back to their original position. It is a difficult task.'' (New York lecture on CC, July 13, 1976)
Srila Prabhupada - 'This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation." (SB Canto 4 Ch 29 text 83 Purport)
Srila Prabhupada further explains-
Srila Prabhupada - ''The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness." (Los Angeles 13 June, 1970)
Srila Prabhupada - "Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. So long as one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness, he does not fall down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness, immediately he falls down." (Letter to Revatinandana, Los Angeles 13 June, 1970)
Devotee – "When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krsna, we have a perfect relationship with Krsna, what causes us to fall down to the material world, because we’re already serving Krsna?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that, "don’t fall down."
Devotee – "Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving Krsna."
Srila Prabhupada – "Because you have got little freedom, you have free will. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire."
Devotee – "In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it says that Krsna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krsna did not want us to come, then why are we here?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Yes, you forced Krsna to allow you to come, just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, "My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there, but he insists, "Oh, I must go. I must go. All right, you go at your risk and suffer. What can be done?" So because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, therefore you have acquired the quality of your father, so God does not interfere with your independence, your free will. If you persist that "I must go and enjoy independently," God says, "All right, you can go." This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy." (Melb, Australia June 25, 1974)
Acyutananda - ''So what made the jiva-soul take birth in the material world in first place?''
Srila Prabhupada - ''In the first place?''
Acyutananda - ''What is the first birth? What is the cause of the first birth in the material world?"
Srila Prabhupada - ''Yes, that is stated in the Prema-vivarta:
krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare
"We are eternal servant of Krsna. As soon as we want to become master, that is the beginning of our first birth in the material world. We have got independence. Krsna says, mamaivamso jiva bhutah—we are part and parcel of Krsna—so Krsna has got full independence, but we are minute; therefore we have got minute independence. Our business is to serve Krsna, but as soon as we give up this idea, we want to become master. That is the beginning of our material birth." (Lecture on SB Canto 5, Ch 5 text 2, Hyderabad, April 11, 1975)
Acyutananda – "But in the Bhagavad Gita it says, "Once coming to the spiritual world, he never returns to the material creation. He can return?"
Srila Prabhupada – "If he likes he can return."
Guru-kripa – "How is it that one can become envious of Krsna?"
Srila Prabhupada – "You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God. God has got full independence, but you have got independence too, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, so if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown." (Conversation, Mayapur, Feb 19, 1976)
Srila Prabhupada - "So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?’ I immediately fall down, that is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, "If I could become the master." They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking he can."
Vipina Purandara - "Why doesn’t Krsna protect us from that desire?"
Srila Prabhupada - "He is protecting you. He says, "You rascal, don’t desire an independent existence without Me, surrender unto Me." But you are rascal; you do not do this."
Vipina Purandara - "Why doesn’t Krsna save me from thinking like that?"
Srila Prabhupada - "That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me." Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?" (July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C. USA)
Paramahamsa - "But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return?"
Srila Prabhupada - "There is return, that is voluntary, return is there."
Paramahamsa - "If we want."
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes."
Paramahamsa - "So we can come to the spiritual world and return?"
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes."
Paramahamsa -"Fall down?"
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, as soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice, yes, Krsna says, yes, you go and enjoy the material world, otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." Just like some of our students sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will. Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, "Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here." He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that."
Paramahamsa - "So our desire to enjoy, we achieve these material bodies; and our desire to achieve Krsna brings us to our natural position."
Srila Prabhupada - ''Yes." (Morning Walk Cheviot Golf Course, May 13, 1973, LA)
Therefore we are responsible for our choices and actions and in the material creation free will almost does not exist because one is binded by their own reactions to their pious and impious deeds (karma)
Srila Prabhupada – ''Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at anytime, so there is always a chance of falling down by misuse of one’s independence." (Letter to Jagadisa dasa, 4/25/1970)
Srila Prabhupada – Regarding your several questions, where are all the spirit souls coming from? These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities. There is no new soul, new and old are due to this material body, but the soul is never born and never dies, so if there is no birth, how there can be new souls?" (Letter to Jagadisa dasa, 7/9/1970)
Srila Prabhupada - "Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence." (Letter to Jagadisa dasa, 02/27/1970)
Srila Prabhupada - "The relationship with Krsna is never lost, it is simply forgotten by the influence of maya, so it maybe regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new.'' (Letter to Jagadisa dasa, 02/27/1970)
Returning home back to Godhead is not necessarily permanent Prabhupada explains, that choice to stay or go is also up to the jiva-souls.
Therefore, it is NOT just a "one-way discision" only Krsna makes, no, the discisions are also made by the individual each jiva-soul on where they choose to live.
Krsna will never run a dictatorship that suppresses one's right of self expression and voluntary service.
Real loving exchanges can never exist without allowing the "free will," or choices involving the jiva-souls in a "two-way" reciprocal exchange.
Krsna does not run a totalitarian dictatorial regime in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana making the jiva-souls mindless puppets controlled by the puppet master (God).
This means the jiva-souls always have the choice to accept or reject Krsna, and can leave Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana at anytime.
Devotee – "In Srimad Bhagavatam, it says that Krsna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krsna did not want us to come, why are we here?" Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?"
Srila Prabhupada - "That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, you love me, you love me, you love me. Is it love? You love me, otherwise I will kill you! Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. You love me, otherwise I shall kill you! That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?" (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.)
The jiva-souls in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana are forever expanding their expression of individuality with personal voluntary offerings based on free will and selfless loving reciprocal exchanges with Krsna, it is never a one-sided master/slave relationship with the Krsna (God)
Srila Prabhupada - "Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force, no, Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, You love me, otherwise I shall kill you! That is not love it is exploitation." (Washington DC July 8, 1976)
Real love, bhakti or service is always reciprocal, as said above, it is never a one-sided affair where surrender to Krsna takes away your sense of self, individuality and the ability to voluntarily provide personal contributions and have independent choices.
This is important to understand because each individual jiva-soul has their own independent personality, sense of self and unique personality and character separate from Krsna's Personality, that are the unique make up of each individual marginal living entity (jiva-soul), make them the "person" they are eternally.
Srila Prabhupada - "Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. "So God does not interfere with your independence." (Conversation Melb, Australia June 25, 1974)
Devotee - "Srila Prabhupada why did Krsna give us free will if He knew we would miss use it?"
Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will! But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone either. That is not life." (Aug 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)
Free will or freedom is something never acquired, nor ever given up or surrendered in the spiritual world as ignorant fools believe.
Free will is eternally part and parcel of the jiva-souls (marginal living entities) natural constitution and therefore always exists without beginning or end in the spiritual planets.
However, free will in its full potential, is only fully experienced in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavan, which are the jiva-souls original perpetual home.
The jiva-souls (marginal living entities) never emerged or originated from some nonsense dormant clear sheet of consciousness that fools claim is always growing with new jiva-souls, known as the dormant Brahmajyoti, Brahman as impersonalist gurus, sannyasis and their followers foolishly believe.
There is no such place as tatastha-sakti where the jiva-souls are literally generated or originate from, such teachings are nonsense and bogus.
As said above tatastha-sakti is a name describing the fallen conditioned circumstances of the jiva-souls, tatastha-sakti is not the original beginning point of the jiva-souls because it is already a fallen "conditioned state" the jiva-souls fell to long, long, long ago.
The marginal potency or marginal living entities are like the sun-rays surrounding the Sun-disc, however, in the case of Krsna and the jiva-souls, both have always been, both have always existed.
The marginal living entities or jiva-souls are also as tatastha-sakti in their "conditioned state" outside Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana.
As explained above, tatastha-sakti is not a place, it is a name describing those jiva-souls "conditioned" in the material creation or those "conditioned" in the dormant (inactive) impersonal Brahmajyoti.
Both conditions are already a "fallen condition," so clearly the jiva-souls never originated from an already fallen position, they never originated from tatastha-sakti.
It is said by some the jiva-souls are generated from the marginal plane but that simple means they are individual parts and parcels of the marginal energy among Krsna's energies.
The jiva-souls were never created by Krsna because the marginal living entity (jiva-souls) are part and parcel of Krsna's Body, and like Krsna, are eternal without beginning or end. Only the material worlds are created.
The fact is, on the spiritual platform there is no creation of the individual jiva-souls, they were never created, they have always been.
Srila Prabhupāda - "The soul is part and parcel of God. As God is not created, He is creator, above creation so the father creates a child; therefore father is above creation. So God is above creation. God created the cosmic manifestation (material worlds). Before creation of this cosmic world, God was there. Therefore He is not created; He is creator of all created things. And the jiva-soul, being part and parcel of God, he is also not created." (Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize, June 23, 1975 Los Angeles)
All jiva-souls coming to the material creation directly originate from Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavan where they are beginningless and endless like Krsna and Visnu as explained above.
The jiva-soul have no origin.
In the spiritual worlds there is no creation of any kind including the individual jiva-souls, they were never created just like Krsna was never created.
The individual jiva-souls (marginal living entities) have existed for "infinity" which means, just like Krsna, they are beginningless and endless, and were NEVER created.
So there is no such thing as new jiva-souls being created because they have always been and were NEVER created.
Bhagavad Gita As it Is Chapter 2, Verse 12
"Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be." (BG 2.12)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is "1983 correct edition," Chapter 2 text 20-
"For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." (BG, Ch 2 text 20 "1983 correct" edition)
The 1972 edition of Bhagavad Gita As It has wrongly presented by the then editor Hayagriva dasa, the above is the "now corrected verse", so avoid the 1972 edition of Bhagavad Gita As It Is.
Prabhupada confirms no jiva-soul was ever created-
Srila Prabhupada – "There are no new souls, new and old are due to this material body, but the jiva-soul is never born and never dies, so if there is no birth, how can there be new souls?" (Letter to Jagadisa dasa, 7/9/1970)
Only matter is temporary (like the material bodily vessel the jiva-soul is presently in), while the jiva-souls in the material body are eternal and can NEVER cease to exist.
This means when the material vessels the jiva-soul is in, breaks down due to disease, decay or accidents, and ceases to function, also due to old age, the jiva-soul can no longer remain in that broken material body, and is forced to take another body in the womb of a new mother.
Actually, getting a human body in the material world is very rare and in most cases one’s next birth is in the lower species of life, where the jiva-soul must evolve through the species of life to they again reach the human platform.
This process has been going on for infinity which means the jiva-souls have experienced every material bodily existence imaginable.
The consequences of ♾️ (infinity) is mind blowing, but there is a way out of this temporary (eventually repetitive) material manifestation.
The goal of a Vaiṣṇava is to get out of this temporary decaying material existence and return back home back to Godhead and enter the perpetual Vaikuntha planets to be with Visnu, or Goloka Vrindavana and be with Krsna, where one is no longer covered by a nasty temporary decaying material bodily vessel, and ARE instead fully a spiritual body, never again to experience repeated birth and death.
The individual jiva-souls are unique eternal independent parts and parcel of Krsna, just like the sunrays and the Sun-disc are united, so are the jiva-souls and Kṛṣṇa.
The jiva-souls are just as old as Krsna (beginningless and endless)
Srila Prabhupada – ''Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at anytime, so there is always a chance of falling down by misuse of one’s independence." (Letter to Jagadisa dasa, 04/25/1970)
Srila Prabhupada - "Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence." (Letter to Jagadisa dasa, 02/27/1970)
Only the material worlds (matter or material energy) is created, not the spiritual worlds or living beings.
When Krsna wanted to experience a loving relationship He knew it could never exist with just one so He divided Himself into two, Srimati Radharani and Krsna, the Divine couple.
The marginal living entities (jīva-souls) are a part and parcel of Krsna and cannot be separated from the Supreme, yet are also simultaneously separated as independent living beings (jiva-souls) with their own sense of self, individuality, personality and free will, they are not Krsna but are fully dependent on Krsna with different relationships with the Lord.
Pradyumna - "Do the five direct rasas take place between jīva-souls also when they are..."
Srila Prabhupāda - "Everything for jīva-souls, all relationship. Kṛṣṇa is one, the Supreme, and all the jīva-souls are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore the eternal relationship is there. Now they are exhibited in these twelve kinds of humor, either directly or indirectly." (Room Conversation - May 10, 1969, Columbus, Ohio)
Srila Prabhupada - "The jīva-soul, a part and parcel, cannot be separated from the Supreme. Sun and the light, electric bulb, and the diffusion of light, they cannot be separated. But this portion is covered. It appears darkness. So when it is covered, that is called māyā, and he thinks that "I have no relationship with God," or "I am God, there is no God." This is māyā. He is covered. He cannot see. So he has to be treated by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness treatment, and the māyā will be separated, and he will see, "Ah, yes, I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa." Then he comes to the direct relationship." (May 10, 1969, Columbus, Ohio)
It is important to understand that no jiva-souls originate from the dormant Brahmajyoti, impersonal Brahman or tatastha-sakti (an already fallen conditional state)
The fact is all marginal living entities (jiva-souls) originate directly from Goloka-Vrindavana where they all have an eternal svarupa spiritual body but can voluntarily change to a bodily form of their choice, where the Lords pastimes are perpetually happening.
Srila Prabhupāda – ''Unless there are two persons, where is the question of love? Love means two persons, then there is exchange, then there is love. I must deal with you open-hearted, you must deal with me open-hearted, then there is love. So if you want to love Kṛṣṇa, God, then these things must be there." (Aug 9, 1976, Tehran)
Srila Prabhupada – "So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, or one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that is not independence, that is force." (Los Angeles, June 23, 1975)
Srila Prabhupada - "Unless there is a possibility of misusing our free will, there is no question of freedom." (Dialectical Spiritualism, Critique of Descartes)
Syamasundara - "Can we predict that returning back home, back to Godhead will be permanent? Can we predict that? Just like many prisoners leave the prison, however some do come back?"
Srila Prabhupada - "No, there is no permanent effect because we have got little independence. There is nothing permanent because you can misuse your independence at any time and leave when ever you choose."
Syamasundara - "So some come back to the material creation?"
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, otherwise there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do this, you can do that. "All right. Whatever you like."
Devotee - "Then the jiva-soul is so many times falling down, again and again, so will he eventually permanently come back?"
Srila Prabhupada - "He has got independence, therefore there is always the possibility he can misuse his independence and fall down. That's why when a man is released from the prison house, that does not mean permanently because he can come back again, the general law is not to come back, but if he likes, he can come back, otherwise what is the meaning of independence? But naturally if one becomes free from the prison house, he should not return there again." (Discussions with Syamasundara > Henri Bergson)
For those who believe no one can ever fall down from Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana, they have not understood these clear points explained by Srila Prabhupada.
In Bhagavad Gita As It Is, Krsna promises the jiva-souls they will never again fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana to the material creation, and yes, Krsna will always keeps His promise!
However, are the jiva-souls forced to accept that promise from Krsna which means the jiva-souls lose their free will in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana and can never leave even if they want to, because of that promise from Krsna?
The fact is, Krsna's promise of never falling down to the material creation is Krsna's point of view and promise, but the fact is, the jiva-souls do not have to accept His promise as final, they can reject that too because of their free will?
There must be choice (free will) in the spiritual worlds otherwise there can be no question of loving voluntary exchanges that enrich and flavour a relationship.
Fortunately over 90% of jiva souls at one time choose to never fall down, only less than 10% choose to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana Prabhupada has explained.
However, that also can change over infinity, after all, the jiva-souls are beginningless and endless.
Srila Prabhupada wrote me a letter when I was a young 23 year old in early 1975 found in vaniquotes. I admitted to Prabhupada I was having difficulty, that was not helped by our Sydney Temple being demolished by local council authorities and bulldozed into the ground, leaving us out on the sidewalk with the Radha Gopinath Deities in the rain. Many devotees left the movement at this time as the struggle became too difficult for them to handle however, I chose to stay, we moved to our incense factory in the rough industrial area near Redfern (the suburb of Alexandria), it was a very difficult stressful time.
Out of frustration I wrote to Prabhupada expressing the struggles we experienced, he wrote back bluntly saying I MUST follow his order, there is no choice because I promised to follow his order at initiation, otherwise, he warned me, I was carving my way to hell!
Even though he said I had no choice, the fact is for him to say "follow my teachings or you are going to hell" obviously indicates there is ALWAYS a choice.
I could of left like so many other devotees did back then, but I chose to stay out of fear. Being young, naive and immature in 1975, I believed Prabhupada's strong harsh words warning me to follow his teachings or I was go to hell.
One young new devotee working in the incense factory read my letter, shook his head and said, "It's difficult enough living under these conditions, doesn't Prabhupada understand that? You cannot threaten people the way he abused you in that letter!" then said, "I'm out of here." He was never seen again!
My parents were also disgusted and not impressed with Prabhupada's comments to their son either. My father refused to meet him when he came to Melbourne in 1976. Years later I discovered my brother came to the Temple drunk with his friends demanding to see me and the Temple had to call the Police. (I called them)
It seems Prabhupada was not fully aware of the difficulties the Sydney Temple was going through. At least I stayed, while many others left, never to be seen again.
By leaving they certainly proved they had a choice, but I was so naive I actually believed Prabhupada when he said I had no choice, LOL, which probably saved my spiritual life.
Over the years many immature ISKCON leaders (gurus, sannyasis and devotees) had no idea what my relationship with Prabhupada is (including my parents). They used that letter against me to put me down and belittle me, and still do to this day. I have learnt to ignore them all.
When Prabhupada came a year later, he called me to his room and spoke nicely to me, concerned for my welfare and humbly said to me, "no matter how difficult things get, never leave me."
Ultimately each individual jiva-soul is a unique person with their own personality who can choose for themselves how to voluntarily serve Krsna the Supreme Personality of Godhead and cause of all causes, the best way they can, or ignore Him if they want.
As Prabhupada has explained, Krsna never forces the jiva-souls to surrender to Him, never forces them to love Him, that must be voluntary otherwise love can never genuinely exist unless there are voluntary reciprocal exchanges.
Srila Prabhupada - ''Love means you take and you give also. Suppose if you love somebody and you simply take from him, but you don't give. Oh, do you think it is very good? No. It is not good. That is not love. That is exploitation. If I go on simply taking from you, and if I don't offer you anything, that is simply exploitation." (Lecture on BG Ch 9 text 2-5, New York, Nov 23, 1966)
Srila Prabhupada - ''We have got the propensity to love. Love means somebody else. Love cannot be one or love cannot be executed only with one, personally. There must be another one. I love somebody; somebody loves me, there must be two, there must be lover, there must be beloved in a two-way exchange otherwise how can there be love?" (Lecture on SB Canto 1 Ch 2 text 6, Delhi, Nov 12, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - ''Their (impersonalist) philosophy is oneness. So how there be love with just one? Is it possible? Have you got any such experience that love means one? No. Love means two. There must be two, the lover and the beloved. Kṛṣṇa is already lover. He loves you so much that He's trying to get you back. That is Kṛṣṇa's attempt. "Please, My dear boy, or My dear friend, My dear servant." (Lecture on SB Canto 2 Ch 1 text 3, Paris, June 12, 1974)
Impersonalism has many meanings, there are other impersonalist who believe surrendering to Krsna means giving up your free will and unique personality and becoming Krsna's mindless yes man or women and puppet on a string.
The above impersonal version of Krsna consciousness must be rejected Prabhupada explains.
Srila Prabhupada – "In Bengali it is said, If you catch one girl or boy, you love me, you love me, you love me, is that love? You love me otherwise I will kill you!? Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver." (Washington DC July 1976)
As Prabhupada has explained, Krsna never forces the jiva-souls to surrender to Him, He never forces them to love Him, that must be voluntary otherwise love can never exist unless there is that endeavour to establish voluntary reciprocal exchanges.
Having free will or freedom is something never acquired, nor can ever be given up, or surrendered in the spiritual world.
Free will is eternally part and parcel of the jiva-soul's natural constitution as a spiritual living entity and perpetually exists without beginning or end in the spiritual planets.
Therefore free will in its full potential is only fully experienced in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavan, which are the jiva-soul's original perpetual homes.
On the other hand, free will in the material creation is greatly restricted and only experienced minutely in the human species.
In all other species of life in the material creation, there is no free will or the ability to enquire about the purpose of existence, there is only the instincts of eating, sleeping, mating and defending.
So the human form (material bodily vessel) the jiva soul has occupied, is very important because it is the most advanced species that can assist the trapped jiva-soul to get out of the material creation.
Such a material bodily vessel is very, very rare among the 8 million 400 thousand species of life, there are only 400 thousand human species, making the human body the only way out of the material creation under the guidance of a spiritual teacher or master.
Krsna never forces the jiva souls to surrender to Him or love Him, that they must choose for themselves, if He did use force, then that is not love, it is coerced surrender, exploitation and abuse.
There is always free will and the ability to always choose in both Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana which means one can choose accept or reject Krsna eternally. Otherwise there is no meaning to free will.
A devotee once ask Srila Bhaktisiddhanta why was the jiva-souls granted free will when they could misuse it?
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta answered-
"You are fighting for freedom. Don’t you know the value of having free will? Devoid of freedom the soul is only matter. Real freedom or free will therefore offers the jiva-soul the alternative to do either right or wrong."
Gandhi then demanded-
"We want our freedom too."
The British authorities replied-
"You are not fit to have self-government or freedom. When you are fit, we shall give it to you."
Gandhi then demanded-
"We want the freedom to do right or wrong too."
So having one's freedom does not guarantee only acting in the right way; no, the choice must be there to also do wrong if on chooses.
Free will means always to be able to choose for yourself what is right or wrong for you, and not forced by others to do what they believe is right or wrong for you.
Therefore the possibility of also rejecting Krsna must always be there too in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana because that's what free will also means - to always have a choice.
So those who claim the jiva-soul never again falls down from Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana are talking nonsense no matter who they are or claim to be.
However, it is a fact that over 90% of jiva-souls have never been to the material creation, which means they have never left Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana.
The jiva-souls always have free will in both Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana and choose for themselves what they want to do, most never leave Krsna but less than 10% do choose to leave the spiritual worlds.
Our first choice after rejecting Krsna in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana, is to dominate and imitate Krsna, it is that choice, due to free will, that causes the jiva soul to enter the material temporary creation and try to dominate.
This choice of entering the material creation has nothing to do with the influence of Maya and the material energy.
This is because the material energy does not exist in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana.
As a result of the rebellious jiva-soul's "choice" to reject Krsna, there relocation to the material creation begins to developed based on the desire to enjoy separately.
Srila Prabhupada has explained that the "original position" of the jiva soul is always with Krsna in the spiritual world, engaged in a reciprocal relationship based on voluntary loving exchanges.
This is the jiva-soul's real eternal home and original perpetual position.
As explained above, Maya can never be blamed for the fall down of the jiva-soul from Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana to the material creation in any way, Maya in her role as the personification of material energy, does not exist in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana, therefore Maya can never tempt the jiva-souls to forget Krsna in anyway.
Generally the only cause of fall down in most cases is the "free will" to make one's own choice to live separate from Krsna.
Another rare cause is offending great devotees like the gate keepers of Vaikuntha, Jai and Vijay did when they offended the four Kumaras by not letting them in to Vaikuntha (story in Srimad Bhagavatam)
The jiva-souls have "free will" eternally in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana as part and parcel of their marginal constitutional make up as perpetual living entities.
Dr. John Mize – "Did all the jiva-souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any jiva-souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?"
Srila Prabhupada – "No, there are… Majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down."
Dr. John Mize – "So we’re among the 10%."
Srila Prabhupada – Yes, or less than that. In the material, whole material world all the living entities they are… Just like in the prison house, there is some population, but they are not majority. The majority of the population, they are outside the prison house. Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the spiritual world. Only a few fall down."
Dr. John Mize – "Does Krsna know ahead of time that a soul is going to be foolish and fall?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Krsna? Yes, Krsna may know because He is omniscient."
Dr. John Mize – "Are more jiva-souls falling all the time?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Not all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence. Everyone is not liking to misuse the independence. The same example: Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal. So their shelter must be also constructed. It is very easy to understand. Not that cent percent population will be criminal, but government knows that some of them will be. Otherwise why they construct prison house also? One may say, "Where is the criminal? You are constructing…" Government knows, there will be criminal. So if the ordinary government can know, why God cannot know? Because there is tendency."
Dr. John Mize – "The origin of that tendency (to fall from Goloka) is…?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Yes."
Dr. John Mize – "From where does that tendency come?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krsna says,yathecchasi tathä kuru. "Now you do whatever you like." (BG lecture, Mayapur, June 20, 1973)
