Srila Prabhupada in his Books, lectures and letters, is making the point that Krsna is in complete control and is always the Supreme Personality of Godhead and cause of ALL causes, that includes having "complete control" over the free will the jiva-souls eternally have but simultaneously never interferes with their free will.
Syamasundara dasa - ''Does the individual jiva-soul have a little independence to choose?"
Srila Prabhupada - ''No (not without the sanction of Krsna), unless Krsna sanctions free will, we cannot do anything because He is the cause of all causes. Bhagavad-Gita states that when the individual jiva-soul wants to act, Krsna gives the orders. Man proposes, and God disposes."
Syamasundara dasa - ''So we have no free will?"
Srila Prabhupada - "Not without the sanction of Krsna. Without Him, we cannot do anything. Therefore He is the ultimate cause."
Syamasundara dasa - "But I thought you have been saying that we have a little independence."
Srila Prabhupada - "We have the independence in the sense that we may deny or affirm,
The brāhmaṇa said - "My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can't you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world." (SB 4th Canto Ch 28 text 53)
The marginal living entities (spirit souls) originally fall down to this material creation from Vaikuntha and NOT the Impersonal Brahman (Brahmajyoti) or the Body of Maha Vishnu as some be
Srila Prabhupada - "Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness." (Letter to: Revatinandana, Los Angeles 13 June, 1970)
The following Conversation took place in Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974 between Srila Prabhupada and his disciples.
Devotee – "When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krsna, we have a perfect relationship with Krsna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we’re already serving Krsna?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that "Don’t fall down."
Devotee – "Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…"
Srila Prabhupada – "Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire."
Devotee – "In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it says that Krsna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krsna did not want us to come, why are we here?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Yes, you forced Krsna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, "My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there." But he insists, "Oh, I must go. I must go." "All right, you go at your risk and suffer. What can be done?" So because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, therefore you have acquired the quality of your father, so God does not interfere with your independence. If you persist that "I must go and enjoy independently," so God says, "All right, you can go." This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy." (Melb, Australia June 25, 1974)
The spiritual worlds of Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana are not a dictatorial domineering impersonal place that denies self expression, no, there are always voluntary loving exchanges, cooperation and reciprocation going on between Krsna and His devotees.
"Surrender" to Krsna does NOT mean you give up your intelligence, free will, individuality, voluntary offerings, and an independent personality separate from Krsna's Personality.
The marginal living entities (jiva-souls) in the spiritual world always have the awareness of being an independent unique contributing person, yet always, yet also fully dependent on Krsna.
Question - Is there a place in the Spiritual World from where we can never fall down from?
Answer - It is not based on a "place you can never fall down from" that will keep you in Vaikuntha, it does not work that way because it is based on free will which is ‘’your choice’’ in reciprocation with Krsna. If we are forced to love Krsna, then how can there be genuine love?
Loving relationships are always a "two-way" street based on reciprocation and loving exchanges, it is never a slave domineering dictatorial impersonal master relationship that only destroys one's free will and sense of individual self.
Remaining in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana "eternally" is also based on the marginal living entities unique selflessness and free will and choice to stay there
HERE HERE HERE
And of course, being able to freely choose individual "loving" personal exchanges and contributions as an offering while serving the Lord as the perpetual "person" the jiva-souls are eternally.
No two jiva-souls are the same, each has their own unique individual personality and character when engaging in loving exchanges with Krsna.
Srila Prabhupāda - ''Unless there are two persons, where is the question of love? Love means "two persons," then there is exchange. Giving something, taking something, feeding something and to eat something, and speaking everything, no secrecy, and to know everything of the other person. When these things are transacted, then there is love. I must deal with you open-hearted, you must deal with me open-hearted, then there is love. So if you want to love Kṛṣṇa, God, then these things must be there." (Evening Darsana, Aug 9, 1976, Tehran)
It is also their choice of what THEY want to offer and contribute to the Lord, which is the very best from their personal unique abilities and talents they voluntarily choose to selflessly offer to Krsna.
But also each jiva-soul knows it pleases Krsna the most by humbly and selflessly serving the servants of the servants of Krsna in Goloka-Vrindavan or Vaikuntha.
This "selflessness" of serving the servant of the servant of Krsna is the highest realization of love of God.
The fact that one does NOT fall from God's personal Kingdom, is the jiva-souls personal responsibility and choice, and NOT Gods (Krsna).
It is the jiva-souls choice, it is their free will that allows them to choose, and nobody else including Krsna, interferes with that choice. This is because Krsna NEVER forces us to love Him.
Srila Prabhupada - "Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then there is love. Not by force! Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!" (Washington DC July 8, 1976)
Srila Prabhupada - ''Because you are Son of God you have got independence, so God does not interfere with your little independence. If you persist that “I must go and enjoy independently'', God says, “All right, you can go and enjoy”. (Melb, Australia June 25, 1974)
Srila Prabhupada explains in "Nectar of Devotion", that just like the Sun cannot be separated from the Sun-rays, similarly Krsna is meaningless without the association of His loving devotees.
With such selfless emotions of loving devotion, the jiva-soul NEVER loses their free will, which means their own individual ability of self expression, when choosing to offer their own personal contributions that are unique to each individual jiva-souls (jiva-tattva)
Each jiva-soul has this eternal marginal quality, which is part and parcel of there perpetual make up or constitution as being the marginal living entity or jiva-tattva-soul they are.
In this way, each of the jiva-soul's have their own individual sense of self, character and personality and being a unique one of a kind in the Spiritual Sky, unlike any other jiva-soul.
Again it is important to understand that no two jiva-souls are the same.
This eternally existing spiritual social code, that includes free will and an independent personal sense of individual self, make up the character and personality of each jiva-soul that is without any beginning or ending point, and is part and parcel of every marginal living entities (jiva-souls) eternal constitution.
This allows the jiva-soul to personally always be aware that they are a unique individual independent person while serving Krishna, being different from all other living entities in the Spiritual Sky.
"Free will" or the ability to make chooses means is also the jiva soul's decision of how they want surrender and serve Krishna in the mood of reciprocation and loving exchanges.
Or even not surrender to Krsna if they choose.
The fact is more than 90% of jiva-souls NEVER choose to foolishly enter the material creation, only less than 10% foolishly choose to leave Vaikuntha and enter the material creation Prabhupada tells us.
The relationship between Krishna and His jiva-tattva expansions (marginal living entities) is NEVER "one-sided, never forced and never impersonal, it is ALWAYS a personal loving relationship of exchanges, reciprocation, nurturing, voluntary service, in the mood of a two-way expression.There must always be loving cooperation, exchanges and reciprocation, responding with Krishna with selfless kindness.
As already said, 90% of all living entities (jiva-tattva souls or marginal living entities) choose to NEVER fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana, because that is THEIR choice.
That expression of freedom or "free will" in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana is always eternally part and parcel of the marginal living entities natural constitution and has always existed.
The jiva-tattva soul or marginal living entity, has 78.125% of Krishna's quantities, which is 50 of His 64 qualities.
This puts marginal living entities in the realm of having their own "sense of independent self (yet dependent on Krishna), identity, personality, individuality, unique character and the ability to choose for themselves.
This means the jiva-souls have the ability to agree or not agree with Krishna if they choose and if Krsna allows, after all, He is the cause of ALL causes.
This is very important to understand. This entire endless universe of both material and spiritual, is Krsna's property.
The sense of individuality and independence the individual jiva-soul are provided with, allows the jiva-soul, the right to choose Krsna or choose to live separate from Krsna in the material creation if they want.
Remember, Maya (the material energy) does NOT exist in Vaikuntha, so MAYA is unknown to the jiva-souls (marginal living entities) in both Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana.
However, having "free will, independence and experiencing a unique sense of individual self with the ability to express themselves in their own unique way, is eternally the constitutional makeup of all marginal living entities (jiva-souls) in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana.
This is because they have 78.125% of Krsna's attributes or qualities that makes them minor expansions of the Lord yet with their OWN personality.
Unlike the direct Visnu-tattva and Visnu-sakti-tattva expansions who all have 60 of Krsna's 64 qualities (93.75%) and who are in fact different personalities of the one Krsna playing another role in His own pastimes.
If "free will" is taken away from the marginal living entities, then they lose the ability to give and accept love, the jiva-soul becomes no better than dead stone or just a mindless robot, slave or drone.
For love to truly exist, the jiva-souls MUST have their free will, as part and parcel of their marginal constitutional and make up, to choose how they want to serve Krsna with voluntary cooperation and selflessness (the real meaning of surrender) in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana at all times.
Sadly, as said above a small minority do choose to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavan (less than 10%)
To say those in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana will "never ever fall down IS true, but ONLY for those who CHOOSE NOT to fall down.
In other words, if the jiva-souls wants to leave, they certainly can.
Therefore, to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana and enter the material creation is ultimately the jiva-soul's choice.
There IS return to the material world if the jiva-soul wants to return there Prabhupada explains here-
Acyutananda – “But in the Bhagavad Gita it says, "Once coming to the spiritual world, he never returns to the temporary material creation. He can return?"
Srila Prabhupada – "If he likes he can return."
Guru-kripa – "How is it that one can become envious of Krsna?"
Srila Prabhupada – "You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God. God has got full independence, but you have got independence too, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, so if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown." (Conversation, Mayapur, Feb 19, 1976)
Returning home back to Godhead is not necessarily permanent Prabhupada explains as follows, that choice to stay or go is also the jiva-souls choice too, it is not just a "one-way" decision that Krsna only makes, no, real loving exchanges can only exist in a "two-way" relationship and will NEVER exist unless "two" are involved in the decision making.
For loving devotion to truly exist with the marginal living entity, the jiva-soul MUST have the right to choose to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana at anytime they want, therefore returning there is not necessarily permanent Prabhupada explains here.
Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence therefore you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God you have got independence, proportionately, therefore if he likes he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We CAN misuse that." (Conversation, Mayapur, Feb 19, 1976)
Syamasundara - "But can we predict returning back home back to Godhead will be permanent? Can we predict that? Just like many prisoners leave the prison, however some do come back?''
Srila Prabhupada - "No, there is no permanent effect because we have got little independence. There is nothing permanent because you can misuse your independence at any time".
Syamasundara - "And some come back?"
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes. Otherwise there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do this, you can do that. "All right. Whatever you like."
Devotee - "Then he is so many times falling down, again and again, so will he eventually permanently come back?"
Srila Prabhupada - "He has got independence, therefore there is always the possibility he can misuse his independence, he CAN fall down. That's why when a man is released from the prison house, that does not mean permanently because he can come back again, the general law is NOT to come back, but if he likes, he can come back, otherwise what is the meaning of independence? Just like one becomes free from the prison house, naturally he should not go there again". (Discussions with Syamasundara > Henri Bergson)
For those who believe no one can ever fall down from Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana have NOT understood these clear points explained by Prabhupada.
Many also do not understand the variety of living entities in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana, and that it is only a very small minority of jiva-tattva souls who do choose to leave.
The majority do not even know the material creation exists nor cares.
The fact is, there are many different other inhabitants of Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana too who are NOT jiva-tattva and never fall down by choice because they are more direct expansions of Krishna, such as the Vishnu-tattva and Vishnu-sakti-tattvas who are Krishna Himself just playing another role in His own pastimes. Therefore they NEVER fall down because they ARE Krishna. They are simultaneously His eternal associates and Krishna Himself experiencing Himself in unlimited different ways.
So for the Vishnu-tattvas, and Sakti-Vishnu-tattvas, they choose just like Krishna does because they ARE Krishna just playing a different role in His pastimes.
Just like the Pancha-tattva where only one out the the five is jiva-tattva, all the rest are different direct expansions of Krishna's Personality.
90% of the jiva-tattva-souls, who ALWAYS have the ability to choose for themselves as an independent person, also NEVER fall down or leave either because they NEVER "choose" to do so, but less than 10% can if they want too, that free will is ALWAYS there.
Devotee - “Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back”.
Srila Prabhupada - “No! There is possibility, but he does not come if he is intelligent. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again. So those who are going back to Godhead, they must become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, “Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,” I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become." (Discussions with Syamasundara Dasa).
However, Prabhupada has also explained there will ALWAYS be a very small minority of only the jiva tattva souls, less than 10% (not the Vishnu-sakti-tattva or Vishnu-tattva "direct expansions" of Krishna) who can misuse their free will and "choose" to leave if they want.
"Free will" for the jiva tattva souls is eternal in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavan, and without this freedom to be able to choose to either forget or remember Krishna, then the jiva soul would have no individuality, no independent personality, and no ability to love, the jiva-soul would simply be mindless ''yes men and woman'' like machine drones in a factory, or like a dead stone Prabhupada has tells us here.
Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will. But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone either. That is not life". (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)
Srila Prabhupada - “So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly or one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot fall down, that is not independence, that is force. Therefore Krishna says, yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.” (Los Angeles, June 23, 1975)
In Bhagavad Gita As It Is Krishna promises the jiva-souls they will NEVER fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana to the material creation, and yes, Krishna always keeps His promise!
In other words, does this mean the jiva-souls have no choice and can NEVER "choose" to leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana even if they want to leave?
Those great souls who quote Krishna's promise from Bhagavad Gita ARE right for the majority of jiva-souls, which is about 90% in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana who NEVER do fall down or leave to enter the material creation, but NOT all souls!
This is because each jiva-soul has THEIR own free will and independent thinking, this means it is THEIR choice if they stay or leave and NOT just Krishnas.
Krishna's promises are NOT always binding or absolute law with all living entities because the jiva-souls have free will and can make THEIR choices too.
So why do some souls fall down?
To understand this one must realize that ultimately LOVE is not just a one way street or dictatorship, it is based on reciprocation and loving exchanges between two, not just one meaning not just Krishna.
Therefore we must NOT forget the jiva-soul's right of expression too, the jiva-souls ALSO have THEIR choices and say too expressed from THEIR point of view.
This is because love is always based on reciprocation, a two way street between two. Only impersonalists preach that "surrender" means giving up free will, individuality and that everyone should become "little Krishna imitators".
It is a fact Krishna can do anything He wants to do however, if Krishna forced His will and complete dominance on the jiva-souls, then they would be no better than dead stone Prabhupada tells us.
Such absolute one way control by this kind of God will only totally destroy the jiva-soul's independent expression of individuality and there natural eternal constitution right of self expression and free will (freedom).
And if Krishna DID force His will and FORCE the jiva-souls to love Him, then how can that be real genuine love as Prabhupada explains above.
By promising He will NEVER let the jiva-soul fall by forcing the jiva-soul to comply, can be seen as interfering with the free will and individuality of the jiva-soul.
This is because, they too are entitled to THEIR choice of serving or even not serving Krishna if they choose.
The fact is Krishna will NEVER make that decision for the jiva, otherwise one's sense of free will is violated, and there can be no question of love if the jiva-soul has no right to choose for themselves.
Devotee - "Srila Prabhupada why did Krishna give us free will if He knew we would miss use it?"
Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will! But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone either. That is not life". (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)
"Free will" or freedom is something never acquired, nor ever given up or surrendered in the Spiritual World as ignorant fools believe. Free will is eternally part and parcel of the jiva souls (marginal living entities) natural constitution and therefore ALWAYS exists without beginning or end in the Spiritual Planets.
However, free will in its full potential, is ONLY fully experienced in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavan, which is the jiva souls original perpetual home.
Ultimately in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana, it is also the jiva's choice of how to serve and NOT just Krishna's dictates because He ONLY wants loving servants who "choose" to be with Him through their own free will and personal offerings of service, to serve and love Him voluntarily and NEVER forced to serve Him by saying "once you are in Goloka Vrindavana, NEVER again will you leave or fall down".
No, that is NOT Krishna's complete call because it is NOT only His choice, a loving relationship can only exist when there are two consenting personalities, it is also the jiva-soul's choice to REMAIN there as servant of the servant as weĺl, or even leave if they want too.
The jiva-soul's independent nature actually allows them to make their own choices, including leaving the Spiritual World if they choose.
The relationship between servant and Master is NEVER one-way, never impersonal, it is a perpetual relationship based on "reciprocation", based on loving exchanges between TWO.
The promise by Krishna that the jiva-soul will never again fall down into the material world, is from His point of view as explained above.
Ultimately it is NOT only Krishna's will and complete control, no, it is a joint decision between the jiva-souls and Krishna that Krishna allows out of love. The Spiritual Worlds are NOT dictatorships where one is a yes man or women denying their personal contributions and offerings.
And yes, over 90% of jiva-soul's do "choose" to accept Krishna's promise and NEVER leave the Spiritual Worlds. This means less than 10% "do choose" to leave, and that is their right.
Sadly only immature sentimental fools cannot understand these facts regardless of who they are who how great a soul they may supposedly be or claim to be. The fact is each jiva-soul is an independent unique individual with 78.125% of Krishna's qualities and attributes with their own personality, sense of self and unique identity.
Devotee – "In Srimad Bhagavatam, it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?” Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?”
Srila Prabhupada - “That means YOU lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C).
The jiva souls in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana are forever expanding their expression of individuality with personal offerings based on free will and selfless loving reciprocation with Krishna, it is NEVER a one sided master/slave relationship with the God.
Srila Prabhupada - "Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force, no, Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!" (Washington DC July 8, 1976)
Real love or Bhakti is reciprocal, as said above, it is NEVER a one way street where surrender to Krishna takes away one's sense of self, individuality and personal contributions.
This is important to understand because each individual jiva-soul has their own independent personality, sense of self and unique personality and characteristics that THEY only have, that is part and parcel of each individual marginal living entities make up as the independent unique "person" they are eternally.
Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. "So God does not interfere with your independence”. (Conversation Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974)***
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