To say we, the marginal living entities, came from an impersonal origin, is not the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.
Letter to: Revatinandana — Los Angeles 13 June, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - 'The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahma is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness.
Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.
The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he is fallen down.
It does not matter where a living entity stays. In the material world also there are different stages of living conditions, and to remain in the brahman effulgence is also another phase of that fallen condition.
Just like in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated that conditioned souls by their pious activities are elevated to the higher planetary system, but as soon as the stock of pious activities is finished he again comes down on the earthly planet.
Similarly those who are elevated beyond the planetary system to the brahma effulgence, they are also prone to fall down as much as a living entity from the higher planetary system.
As such those who are thinking that they are liberated by being situated in brahman effulgence are described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam as impurely intelligent.
In other words, they are actually not liberated, and because they are not actually liberated they again come down to the material world as much as a living entity elevated to the higher planetary system comes down to this earthly planet.
So we do not accept anyone elevated to the brahman effulgence as actually liberated.”
Srila Prabhupada was very clear on this subject - “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport” Letter to Madhudvisa Swam 1972
Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna album
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.”. July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, you are not conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)
Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha Krsna Bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977
Devotee - “Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back”.
Srila Prabhupada - “No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, “Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,” I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become. . . .”
Srila Prabhupada - “You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this Maya. This is called Maya”.
Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972
Sakti is not exactly Visnu Tattva even though sakti tattva is also called sakti-Vishnu-tattva. The correct understanding is that all of Krsna’s energies are under the broad category of sakti-tattva. To make it simple there are only two categories.
1. Saktiman or God the controller of the energy
2. Sakti the energy of God are eternally occupied with their service to God, such expansions have only the desire to please Krishna or His Vishnu expansion, they can never be covered by Maya and their concept of free will and independance is only to please God as indirect expansion of Godhead.
Just like in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated that conditioned souls by their pious activities are elevated to the higher planetary system, but as soon as the stock of pious activities is finished he again comes down on the earthly planet.
Similarly those who are elevated beyond the planetary system to the brahma effulgence, they are also prone to fall down as much as a living entity from the higher planetary system.
As such those who are thinking that they are liberated by being situated in brahman effulgence are described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam as impurely intelligent.
In other words, they are actually not liberated, and because they are not actually liberated they again come down to the material world as much as a living entity elevated to the higher planetary system comes down to this earthly planet.
So we do not accept anyone elevated to the brahman effulgence as actually liberated.”
Srila Prabhupada was very clear on this subject - “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport” Letter to Madhudvisa Swam 1972
Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna album
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.”. July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, you are not conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)
Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha Krsna Bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977
Devotee - “Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back”.
Srila Prabhupada - “No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, “Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,” I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become. . . .”
Srila Prabhupada - “You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this Maya. This is called Maya”.
Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972
Sakti is not exactly Visnu Tattva even though sakti tattva is also called sakti-Vishnu-tattva. The correct understanding is that all of Krsna’s energies are under the broad category of sakti-tattva. To make it simple there are only two categories.
1. Saktiman or God the controller of the energy
2. Sakti the energy of God are eternally occupied with their service to God, such expansions have only the desire to please Krishna or His Vishnu expansion, they can never be covered by Maya and their concept of free will and independance is only to please God as indirect expansion of Godhead.
Vaikuntha is made up of many sakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas as gopis, gopas and many many others, there is also jiva tattvas playing many rolls in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrndavana as well.
Sakti tattva nitya siddhas can never fall down and the jiva tattvas can NEVER become sakti tattva. The jiva tattvas nitya siddhas like us on the other hand can 'choose' to forget God and enter the mahat tattva creation of Maha Visnu as nitya baddha and think they are a god and do their own thing.
God has many different energies. Jiva is one, Matter is one, the consorts of the Lord are one. Only the jiva tattvas can fall from Goloka Vrndavana neither sakti tattva or Vishnu tattva can fall as they are more divine expansions of the Lord
The real meaning of Tatastha s’akti
Tatastha s’akti simply means we have the ability to choose this side of being with Krishna or that side being in the mahat-tattva material creation, no-one comes from there because it is not a place.
There are 160 names for the jiva-tattva like baddha--jiva, siddha-jiva, tatastha-jiva, jiva-tattva, jiva-s'akti, jiva bhutah etc that each describe the marginal living entity in its particular possition.
For example tatastha s’akti or jiva-tatastha refers to the jiva-tattva's sovereignty as an individual living being THAT HAS FREE WILL AND THE ABILITY TO CHOOSE its destiny.
NO jiva-tattva comes from tatastha-s'akti because THEY are ALREADY tatastha-s'akti PERPETUALLY! even in Goloka-Vrindavana from where they have originated.
Tatastha-s'akti is NOT some place in the cosmos; it is simply a description of the jiva-tattva (marginal living entity) nature pertaining to free will and the ability to choose.
Tatastha s’akti simply means we have the ability to choose this side or that side.
The marginal living entity therefore is always also known a tatastha- s’akti in Vaikuntha, Goloka and the material creation, meaning there is always choice and free-will to love Krishna or reject KrishnaTaṭasthā-śakti is the spiritual but marginal energy of God known as the jiva tattva. Although the jivas are eternal, it is their position as marginal energy - between lower material and higher spiritual energy.
In other words, taṭasthā-śakti or the jiva tattva is between external (material) energy and internal (also eternal spiritual) energy of Krishna Svayam Bhagavan.
In Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya, Verse 6.160 are enumerated these three energies:
The spiritual potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead also appears in three phases -- internal, marginal and external.
Another verse (Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya, 8.152) gives more information
In other words, these are all potencies of God -- internal, external and marginal. But the internal potency is the Lord's personal energy of sakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas and stands over the other two. The jiva tattvas or marginal energy can choose to enter Vaikuntha or the material universes.
So jivatma, living being is never equal to Supreme Godhead and also always subordinate to Him. Above the jiva tattva, also known as the tatastha shakti stands Internal energy of Krishna of shakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas, the jiva tattvas originate from that realm of the Spiritual Sky known as Vaikuntha as well
The Spiritual Sky is the entire existence that has no beginning and has always existed. This means there is wall to wall, so to speak, of jiva tattvas, sakti tattvas and Visnu tattvas, The jiva tattvas or Krishna's marginal potency however are ALL accompanied by a Vishnu tattva expansion of Krishna in the mahat tattva where as in Vaikuntha they are more personally with the Lord.
This part of the Spiritual Sky is covered by a cloud of matter and within the basic material atoms of matter also exists a fallen jiva tattva accompanied by the Paramattama or Kshirodakashayi Vishnu.
Sarva gatah means life is everywhere in both the Spiritual Sky known as Vaikuntha and the material aspect of the Spiritual Sky called the mahat tattva or material creation. There is always 'wall to wall' jiva tattvas in the material creation however, 'most' have chosen to be ' inactive' within each material atom, they are 'covered' and are in the a dormant state that is known as the impersonal aspect of the brahmajyoti effulgence.
Some do not understand that the entire Spiritual Sky IS all pervasive individual units of life. and the only difference in the mahat tattva is that same 'life' is covered by matter, so the sheer numbers of jiva tattvas should not surprise anyone as all matter is covering that all-pervasive life force aspect of the Spiritual Sky.
Also some ask why do so many fall? Well, it is less than 10% that enters the mahat tattva covered 25% of the Spiritual Sky and one should not be bewildered by numbers as the Spiritual Sky is vast and 'inconceivable large', in other words, how can one understand 75% and 25% of 'eternity' that is beginningless and endless?
So our part of the Spiritual Sky is covered by the mahat tattva. The entire Spiritual Sky IS the effulgence of Krishna's Body and 1/4 is covered by the mahat tattva and we, the jiva tattvas, are in that effulgence that is covered by the mahat tattva or material creation that makes up less than 10% of all jiva tattvas or Krishna’s marginal potency.
Most jiva tattvas are active in Krishna Consciousness in Vaikuntha while some, less than 10% have chosen to be either ‘inactive’ within each atom, or ‘active’ in a material mahat tattva temporary vessel within the material cloud that covers this aspect of the Spiritual Sky
It is important to understand that ALL marginal living entities or jiva tattvas ‘originally’ come from Goloka-Vrndavana and are ALWAYS in a perpetual state of uniqueness’ meaning they are forever fresh and youthful in their nitya-siddha body that is forever 'locked' within the 'eternal presence' of Krishna Consciosness if they 'choose' to remember their original state.
Srila Prabhupada – “No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purport) What does this really mean?
This clearly means the 'jiva tattvas' nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY ‘DREAM’, ‘THINK’ OR ‘IMAGINE’ WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go.
Such an inferior non-Krishna conscious facsimile of the self is called the nitya-baddha sub-conscious self.
It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms or vessels created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.
Such a spiritual body is ‘eternally’ endowed with a two-armed form like Krishna’s but can also appear as a four armed form in the Vaikunthas in the mood of servitude, or further appear as a flower, drop of rain, chair, etc regardless, the original form of the soul is two armed just like Krishna’s.
What makes things confusing to several is that some marginal living entities, who have manifested as their inferior secondary baddha-jiva state in the material creation, can stay in the material creation or mahat-tattva for what seems to be an almost eternity!
This means many baddha-jiva souls enter the Body of Maha-Vishnu or the impersonal Brahmajyoti at the dissolution of each mahat-tattva creation because of not being Krishna Conscious to awaken to their true nitya-siddha body in Goloka.
In other words, this entrance into the dormant impersonal Brahmajyoti condition only happens if they are not qualified to again remember their ‘full potential awareness’ of being a nitya-siddha perpetual Krishna Conscious body in Goloka.
In this way, the baddha-jiva sub-conscious state starts off as a non-Krishna conscious selfishly active dream (or thought)
Therefore it is only the secondary or inferior baddha-jiva that is a formless state of consciousness that is sometimes referred to as particles of spirit, spiritual atoms, sparks or molecules (All referring to the baddha-jiva and NOT the nitya-siddha body due to always being a Krishna Conscious bodily form).
This baddha-jiva condition can only experience selfish desires through material bodily vessel provided by Maha-Vishnu from within His mahat-tattva creation that clothes the secondary baddha-jiva state with subtle (ethereal) and gross (biological) material containers or bodily vessels of the mahat-tattva.
Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel” Los Angeles, June 23, 1975
Trivikrama asks Srila Prabhupada - “You were just saying that we are not fallen. Actually this is an illusion thinking that we are fallen. Yet I read …
Srila Prabhupada: “The same example. In dream I am not attacked by the tiger, but I am …thinking, “Oh, tiger is there - It is simply dreaming condition”.
Trivikrama: But so many Vaishnavas are praying…
Srila Prabhupada - “So as soon as you understand that “This is not… I am not in contact with tiger, it is all a dream,” then you are delivered. Similarly, as soon as you understand “All this material condition of life we are simply dreaming; I am actually servant of Krsna,” then you are liberated. That is Krsna conscious. If you keep in Krsna consciousness, that “I am eternal servant of Krsna,” then you are liberated. . . .
Trivikrama: This feeling that we have, that we are fallen, that we are very fallen…
Srila Prabhupada - “That is also illusion. That is also illusion. You are fallen means you have got some certain desires except service of Krsna. Therefore the conclusion is that if you keep yourself tightly in Krsna’s service, there is no question of falling down or there is no question of Maya. You see?” Los Angeles, June 23, 1975
In this lecture Srila Prabhupada is very clear. Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krsna in the spiritual world (As nitya-siddha).
Such a spiritual body is ‘eternally’ endowed with a two-armed form like Krishna’s but can also appear as a four armed form in the Vaikunthas in the mood of servitude, or further appear as a flower, drop of rain, chair, etc regardless, the original form of the soul is two armed just like Krishna’s.
What makes things confusing to several is that some marginal living entities, who have manifested as their inferior secondary baddha-jiva state in the material creation, can stay in the material creation or mahat-tattva for what seems to be an almost eternity!
This means many baddha-jiva souls enter the Body of Maha-Vishnu or the impersonal Brahmajyoti at the dissolution of each mahat-tattva creation because of not being Krishna Conscious to awaken to their true nitya-siddha body in Goloka.
In other words, this entrance into the dormant impersonal Brahmajyoti condition only happens if they are not qualified to again remember their ‘full potential awareness’ of being a nitya-siddha perpetual Krishna Conscious body in Goloka.
In this way, the baddha-jiva sub-conscious state starts off as a non-Krishna conscious selfishly active dream (or thought)
Therefore it is only the secondary or inferior baddha-jiva that is a formless state of consciousness that is sometimes referred to as particles of spirit, spiritual atoms, sparks or molecules (All referring to the baddha-jiva and NOT the nitya-siddha body due to always being a Krishna Conscious bodily form).
This baddha-jiva condition can only experience selfish desires through material bodily vessel provided by Maha-Vishnu from within His mahat-tattva creation that clothes the secondary baddha-jiva state with subtle (ethereal) and gross (biological) material containers or bodily vessels of the mahat-tattva.
Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel” Los Angeles, June 23, 1975
Trivikrama asks Srila Prabhupada - “You were just saying that we are not fallen. Actually this is an illusion thinking that we are fallen. Yet I read …
Srila Prabhupada: “The same example. In dream I am not attacked by the tiger, but I am …thinking, “Oh, tiger is there - It is simply dreaming condition”.
Trivikrama: But so many Vaishnavas are praying…
Srila Prabhupada - “So as soon as you understand that “This is not… I am not in contact with tiger, it is all a dream,” then you are delivered. Similarly, as soon as you understand “All this material condition of life we are simply dreaming; I am actually servant of Krsna,” then you are liberated. That is Krsna conscious. If you keep in Krsna consciousness, that “I am eternal servant of Krsna,” then you are liberated. . . .
Trivikrama: This feeling that we have, that we are fallen, that we are very fallen…
Srila Prabhupada - “That is also illusion. That is also illusion. You are fallen means you have got some certain desires except service of Krsna. Therefore the conclusion is that if you keep yourself tightly in Krsna’s service, there is no question of falling down or there is no question of Maya. You see?” Los Angeles, June 23, 1975
In this lecture Srila Prabhupada is very clear. Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krsna in the spiritual world (As nitya-siddha).
But when we want to take Krsna’s position, we put ourselves into a dreaming state (As nitya-baddha) that can only exist in the mahat-tattva, the impersonal Brahmajyoti or the Body of Maha-Vishnu.
In this dreaming nitya-baddha condition we forget our actual position and are thus free to act out our desire to become the supreme enjoyer.
This state of forgetfulness and dreaming is characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world. But Srila Prabhupada explains that in reality we are not fallen. We are simply in a dreaming nitya-baddha state.
Srila Prabhupada says that this is a very important point and asks the devotees to carefully think about it.
This concept that we are not really fallen offers an explanation for the statements that “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” We do not fall. We simply forget our original nitya-siddha relationship of service to Krsna. Some might argue that we have eternally forgotten Krsna. But that is not supported by Srila Prabhupada’s purports
Srila Prabhupada - “Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krishna says, yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.” Los Angeles, June 23, 1975
The people who claim we have originated from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or a ‘clear sheet of consciousness’ sometimes alleges that those confronted with the choice of Krishna or the mahat-tattva are conditioned souls and cannot be engaged in the Lord’s personal association.
They further assert that those who have attained the personal association of the Lord never again misuse their free will. In most cases that is correct because the marginal living entity chooses to do so. For there to be genuine love or service, there must be free-will other wise we are simply mindless porn’s in a collective of monotonous bliss.
Further more, many do not understand the true facts of how we actually did come down from Goloka due to miss using that free will. We certainly did not come down as our nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body, which is perpetually there in Krishna’s pastimes fixed within that eternal presence where nothing perishes
The understanding of the word ‘dream’ in regards to the marginal living entity falling from Goloka is significant in Srila Prabhupada’s preaching yet has nothing to do with ’sleeping’ anywhere; it’s all to do with time.
The proper understanding is this. It’s all to do with the ‘eternal presence’ of the imperishable Vaikuntha’s and Goloka that has no past or future, compared to the ‘past, present and future’ of the perishable material creation of Maha-Vishnu.
The marginal living entity, due to free will and choice, falls out of synch with the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka or Vaikuntha simply caused by their non-Krishna conscious mistaken desires.
In this dreaming nitya-baddha condition we forget our actual position and are thus free to act out our desire to become the supreme enjoyer.
This state of forgetfulness and dreaming is characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world. But Srila Prabhupada explains that in reality we are not fallen. We are simply in a dreaming nitya-baddha state.
Srila Prabhupada says that this is a very important point and asks the devotees to carefully think about it.
This concept that we are not really fallen offers an explanation for the statements that “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” We do not fall. We simply forget our original nitya-siddha relationship of service to Krsna. Some might argue that we have eternally forgotten Krsna. But that is not supported by Srila Prabhupada’s purports
Srila Prabhupada - “Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krishna says, yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.” Los Angeles, June 23, 1975
The people who claim we have originated from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or a ‘clear sheet of consciousness’ sometimes alleges that those confronted with the choice of Krishna or the mahat-tattva are conditioned souls and cannot be engaged in the Lord’s personal association.
They further assert that those who have attained the personal association of the Lord never again misuse their free will. In most cases that is correct because the marginal living entity chooses to do so. For there to be genuine love or service, there must be free-will other wise we are simply mindless porn’s in a collective of monotonous bliss.
Further more, many do not understand the true facts of how we actually did come down from Goloka due to miss using that free will. We certainly did not come down as our nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body, which is perpetually there in Krishna’s pastimes fixed within that eternal presence where nothing perishes
The understanding of the word ‘dream’ in regards to the marginal living entity falling from Goloka is significant in Srila Prabhupada’s preaching yet has nothing to do with ’sleeping’ anywhere; it’s all to do with time.
The proper understanding is this. It’s all to do with the ‘eternal presence’ of the imperishable Vaikuntha’s and Goloka that has no past or future, compared to the ‘past, present and future’ of the perishable material creation of Maha-Vishnu.
The marginal living entity, due to free will and choice, falls out of synch with the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka or Vaikuntha simply caused by their non-Krishna conscious mistaken desires.
0This also means they fall our of synch with their own perpetual nitya-siddha body and create an alternative consciousness known as the nitya-baddha secondary self. It is this inferior consciousness that enters the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu.
Such selfish desires place the marginal living entity outside of Goloka as their nitya-baddha lower self that enters the mahat-tattva (material creation).
Now it is important to understand that while they are in the mahat-tattva, no time passes in Goloka-Vrndavana because of the ‘eternal presence’ of Krsna Consciousness there. Now that technically means their nitya-siddha body is NEVER fallen but rather it is their ‘consciousness’ that is fallen
Lord Krishna states that our constitutional nature is that all marginal living beings are eternal servants of the Lord. So to say that ‘conditioned’ souls have never been ‘unconditioned’ in Goloka-Vrndavana is incorrect.
When the marginal living entity is in a conditioned state (nitya-baddha), that doesn’t take away their eternal absolute nature as a nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna who is forever fixed within the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka.
Such selfish desires place the marginal living entity outside of Goloka as their nitya-baddha lower self that enters the mahat-tattva (material creation).
Now it is important to understand that while they are in the mahat-tattva, no time passes in Goloka-Vrndavana because of the ‘eternal presence’ of Krsna Consciousness there. Now that technically means their nitya-siddha body is NEVER fallen but rather it is their ‘consciousness’ that is fallen
Lord Krishna states that our constitutional nature is that all marginal living beings are eternal servants of the Lord. So to say that ‘conditioned’ souls have never been ‘unconditioned’ in Goloka-Vrndavana is incorrect.
When the marginal living entity is in a conditioned state (nitya-baddha), that doesn’t take away their eternal absolute nature as a nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna who is forever fixed within the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka.
When a dark cloud covers the Sun, everything becomes dark however, it is not the sun that goes dark, it is the covering that makes it appear the Sun is dark.
Similarly, the nitya-siddha body of the marginal living entity is always in Goloka-Vrndavana but due to the selfish desires of the marginal living entity that cover the marginal living entities ‘awareness’ of their nitya-siddha body, it appears that the darkness or the nitya-baddha secondary consciousness has replaced the nitya-siddha body, but that is NOT so, one’s nitya-siddha body is ALWAYS in Goloka even when one dreams they are nitya-baddha in the mahat-tattva or material creation.
The rebellious marginal living entity simply becomes overshadowed with the concept of past, present and future instigated by free-will, choice and their absolute smallness putting them out of sync with the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka where their nitya-siddha body is perpetually situated.
As a result, they have now adopted the relative perception of existence that places them within the mahat-tattva’s bodily vessels, which are all the dreams of the sleeping Maha-Vishnu.
As a result of this choice, the marginal living entity is no longer ‘aware’ of Goloka or their nitya-siddha body in Goloka that is perpetually fixed there due to the eternal presence of Krishna consciousness as already explained and are now nitya baddha trapped in the mahat-tattva of Maha-Vishnu
As in our case in the material world, we are presently ‘eternally conditioned’ (nitya-baddha) because long, long, long, long ago we made that choice to forget Krishna and simultaneously the ‘awareness’ of our nitya-siddha (eternally liberated) body we serve Krishna as.
And when again we achieve liberation from this material world due to the mercy of pure devotee, we will enter Goloka AGAIN by the method of becoming ‘aware’ of our genuine nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body or in simple terms, we begin to distinguish who we really our that separates us from the MATERIAL DREAM state or nitya-baddha fallen self centred consciousness.
Alan Ginsberg - “How did the material covering begin?”
Srila Prabhupada - “Begin?”
Alan Ginsberg - “As the material shadow. How did we fall into that?
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes. Yes. That is very natural. . . Because jiva, although para-sakti, he has got independence. So when he wants to imitate Krishna”.
Alan Ginsberg - “. How did we fall into that?”
Srila Prabhupada - “In the spiritual world, Krishna is the enjoyer. And all others, they are enjoyed–predominator and the predominating. The Lord is the predominating, so there is no disagreement. There they know, ‘The Lord is predominator; we have to serve.’ When this service attitude is impaired, that–’Why serve Krishna? Why not ourself?’–that is Maya”. - Room conversation with Allen Ginsberg in Columbus, OH 5-14-69
Devotee - “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krsna, we have a perfect relationship with Krsna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we re already serving Krsna?
Srila Prabhupada - “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.” And as soon as you associate with the material nature, then you fall down.
Devotee - “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…
Srila Prabhupada - “Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire…” Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 13.22-24 — Melbourne, June 25, 1974
Devotee - “You commented that everyone has a natural desire to have relationship with Krsna, but that because…
Srila Prabhupada - “Not desire, but he is already established”.
Devotee - ” Established.
Srila Prabhupada - “That is covered. Just like your relationship with somebody as father and son, it is established. You might have forgot, you might have left your home since a very, very long time, and you do not know who is your father, but there is some father. That is a fact. Nobody can say, “No. I, I have, I am born without father.” Nobody can say. One has father, but it may be that he has forgotten his father.
So this Krsna consciousness movement is that we have got some relationship with the Supreme Lord. That we have now forgotten. So it is not the question of desire. It is there. You don’t desire to become one’s son, you are already one’s son.
You simply do not know. Similarly, your relationship with Krsna is there, every one of us, but I have forgotten; I do not know. This Krsna consciousness practice will revive your relationship in what way, in which way you are related with Krsna. It is not that you have to desire.
No. It is already there. You have to desire only how to revive it, that’s all. That is Krsna consciousness. It is not an artificial thing. Just like we are establishing some relationship with somebody or you are my father or you are my wife, you are my husband. No. It is already there. Simply we have to find out.
That will be revealed when you are perfect in Krsna consciousness, brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati, you are freed from all material contamination, and you are perfectly situated in devotional service; it will be at once revealed: “Oh, you are related to Krsna.” You will have to wait for that. Bhagavad-gita Los Angeles, November 23, 1968
Paramahamsa - “But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return.
Srila Prabhupada - “There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is”.
Paramahamsa - “If we want”.
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”.
Paramahamsa - “So we can come to the spiritual world and return?”
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”.
Paramahamsa - “Fall down?”
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go.” Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness.
It’s not so difficult to ‘realize’ that long, long, long, long ago we were with Krishna as our permanent real nitya-siddha body but have now chosen not only to forget Krishna, but also forget that nitya-siddha body within the realm of perpetual originality called Vaikuntha
When a devotee regains his/hers original Krsna Consciousness and re-establishes ‘the awareness’ of their nitya-siddha-svarupa body in Goloka, which is never lost while dreaming as nitya-baddha in the perishable creation, does not mean that one is only restricted by one particular svarupa (body) for eternity in Krishna’s pastimes
Ones eternal body is not limited to any particular nitya-siddha body they have there.
Also there are examples of devotees participating in the pastimes of the Lord in more than one svarupa at the same time, therefore our eternal rasa can change in Goloka; even though our nitya siddha or rasa body is perpetually situated in Goloka as a two armed form in it’s originality as Srila Prabhupada confirms -
Devotee - “Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?”
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes, human form. God is also human form. “Man is made after the shape of God.” So God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs”. Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.1-4 - Melbourne, May 20, 1975
So unlike the material bodies in the mahat-tattva that are temporary decaying vessels the nitya-baddha consciousness moves around in, we ARE our body (nitya-siddha) in Goloka though, that body can transform because our eternal svarupa is interchangeable.
For example, ones svarupa can change to a four-armed form in the Vaikuntha Planets or a different form in Lord Caitanya’s pastimes in the top most platform in Goloka that He sometimes brings to the material world as pastimes, although very rare.
In simple terms, one has the ability to ’shape shift’ into any form to please Krsna Caitanya and can also be in many places in various forms at the same time.
Caitanya Caritamrita is full of such examples. Most are Vishnu tattva expansions although there are many jiva tattva’s like Naradha Muni as well. No jiva tattva in Lord Caitanya Lila is restricted only to their two-armed perpetual svarupa-nitya-siddha body
Srivasa Thakura is known as Narada Muni, he also has his svarupa manifestation in Goloka. Therefore, by the elegance of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Narada Muni is also simultaneously situated in the top most regions of Goloka where Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s endless pastimes are going on.
Further more, Srila Prabhupada has explained that Narada Muni enters the material world often disguised in different bodily vessels to preach Krishna Consciousness.
Who can understand the multidimensional full potential abilities of the liberated nitya-siddha souls?
Srila Prabhupada mentions in the 4th Canto Chapter 28 of the Srimad Bhagavatam that Krishna says - “Don’t you remember me? I was your very close friend, but you gave up My Company and came to this material world”.
When asked directly about whether the jiva was ever in the spiritual world, Srila Prabhupada mentions in the 4th Canto Chapter 28 of the Srimad Bhagavatam that Krishna (in the form of a Brahmana) says to King Puranjana (in his next life, as the daughter of Kind Vidarbha) “Don’t you remember me? I was your very close friend, but you gave up My Company and came to this material world”.
Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.52: The Brahmana inquired as follows: Who are you? Whose wife or daughter are you? Who is the man laying here? It appears you are lamenting for this dead body. Don’t you recognize Me? I am your eternal friend. You may remember that many times in the past you have consulted Me.
Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53: The Brahmana continued: My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can’t you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world.
Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.54: My dear gentle friend, both you and I are exactly like two swans. We live together in the same heart, which is just like the Mānasa Lake. Although we have been living together for many thousands of years, we are still far away from our original home.
Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.55: My dear friend, you are now My very same friend. Since you left Me, you have become more and more materialistic, and not seeing Me, you have been travelling in different forms throughout this material world, which was created by some woman.
In understanding Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 7 Chapter 1 Text 35 Purport one has to first understand that Jaya and Vijaya caused an offence to Brahmanas and as a result were given two choices to atone from their offence.
They could either take three births in the material world as demons or they could take seven births as devotees. They chose to be in the material body as powerful demons so they could get back to Vaikuntha quicker. After all they were trapped in bodies that were under the control of past, present and future.
Now they come from Vaikuntha under Krishna’s compassion meaning they were given the opportunity to engage in Krishna’s pastimes while in the material world as Demons, so when their offence was atoned they were immediately re-established in their eternal original svarupa in Vaikuntha back within the eternal presence of Krishna Consciousness.
It must be understood they new they made a mistake by offending Brahmanas; at no point did they give up Krishna as we have done.
In other parts of Srila Prabhupada’s writings, he calls their offence as a fall down, this is why in the purport of the Srimad Bhagavatam 7.1.35 Srila Prabhupada says “This very significant question would be difficult for an ordinary person to answer, but Narada Muni, being an authority, could answer it”.
Now those who are associates of the Lord of course do not leave Goloka for the material dream or fall down AS LONG AS THEY CHOOSE TO SERVE KRISHNA however, there are those, less than 10% of Krishna jiva-tattva associates in Vaikuntha and Goloka, who DO choose to come to this material world and forget Krishna, they are only interested in their own exploits and want nothing to do with Krishna.
That can include any jiva-tattva (marginal) associate of Krishnas in Goloka who no longer choose to be an associate, any jiva-tattva can leave Goloka for the material creation, but most choose not to make that mistake. The important point is THERE IS ALWAYS CHOICE.
They therefore think, dream or imagine they fall - actually no falls from Vaikuntha because their nitya-siddha body is perpetually fixed there within the eternal presence of Krishna’s pastimes.
As the CC states all marginal living entities are originally nitya-siddha and only the Vishnu-tattvas never forget their position in Krishna lila. Some come to the material creation in Krishna’s lila while others come to for fill their own selfish dreams.
As there are no killing of demons in Vaikuntha, Krishna plays this role as His Vishnu expansion in the material creation with all his nitya siddha jiva-tattvas and Vishnu-tattva associates however, there are other jiva-tattva souls who choose to leave Goloka simply because of their choice not to be with Krishna, THERE IS NO MATERIAL CAUSE FOR THEM FORGETTING GOLOKA OR VAIKUNTHA OTHER THAN FREE WILL AND CHOICE.
Srila Prabhupada makes it clear in the fourth canto of Srimad Bhagavatam and numerous lectures, letters and morning walks we originate from Goloka.
Srila Prabhupada explains we have marginal independence as part of our nature as marginal living entities. We can misuse such independence even in Goloka or Vaikuntha with out any material cause, it simply happens because it is there in our own fundamental spiritual nature as independent (marginal) living beings.
This means a small minority, less than 10% of jiva-tattva nitya-siddha souls in Vaikuntha or Goloka choose to leave. For this purpose Krishna, via His Maha-Vishnu expansion, creates the mahat-tattva (material creation) for them.
The marginal living entities full potential of loving selfless devotion to Krishna and His loving devotees is based on individuality, independence and the right to choose; we never loose that right to choose, not even in Vaikuntha. Surrender to Krishna and His pure devotees do not mean to become mindless porns in Vaikuntha and ‘yes’ men/women to Krishna.
No, everything in Vaikuntha is based on reciprocal loving service even if it is a fact that we surrender selflessly and unconditionally. The fact is that’s how Krishna also treats us. Having free will and choice gives us the opportunity to give ourselves in our own unique way. That choice is always there even in Goloka or Vaikuntha and must be there if genuine love is to exist.
It is not that we first have to be contacted by the modes of material nature to fall down from Goloka or Vaikuntha. It’s all to do with a combination of choice and the sheer smallness of the marginal living entity.
And even then due to that smallness and choice, we only ‘think, imagine or dream’ we are fallen that we become fallen. The fact is we never fall; our nitya-siddha body never leaves Goloka
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could be come the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking”. July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence”.
Srila Prabhupada - “That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Regarding to how a nitya siddha in Goloka can fall down to nitya baddha in the material world, Srila Prabhupada explains we have marginal independence as part of our nature in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrndavana.
We can misuse such independence even in Goloka or Vaikuntha with out any material cause, it simply happens because it is there in our own fundamental spiritual nature as independent (marginal) living beings.
Maya is not the cause of ones fall down from Vaikuntha, that is not possible she only exists in the mahat-tattva. The cause of ones fall down is ones own independent desires of self importance based on free will and choice.
One simply chooses to no longer serve Krishna as their nitya siddha body. As a result, they eventually forget their nitya-siddha body and leave Vaikuntha and enter the mahat tattva as their nitya-baddha secondary self that is the sub-conscious non-Krishna conscious condition of the marginal living entity.
it should of been made clear that the entire universes of Krishna and His Vishnu-tattvas, jiva-tattvas, Goloka-Vrndavana, Vaikuntha’s and the mahat-tattva (material creation) and the impersonal Brahmajyoti are all collectively the Brahmajyoti or everything that is.
The Vaikuntha’s were never created so the word ‘creation’ cannot be used for Goloka-Vrndavana and the Vaikuntha realm, nor can it be used to explain the marginal living entities (jiva-tattvas) or Krishna and His unlimited Vishnu-tattva expansions.
The word creation can only apply to the mahat-tattva material ‘creation’ because it has a beginning and end.
The ‘impersonal Brahmajyoti’ or the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky is actually a very small minority of souls in their baddha-jiva inferior feature that becomes established in that ‘impersonal’ dormant state due to the influence of being covered and frustrated within the mahat-tattva that souls fall to and are covered (material vessels that belong to the mahat-tattva) by when they choose to no longer serve Krsna in Goloka or Vaikuntha.
In other words, when souls become fed up with the material creation of changing material bodies or vessels, they can escape this cycle of birth and death by either realizing their full potential nitya-siddha body that is always in Goloka even while they ‘imagine’ themselves to be in the mahat-tattva, or they can cease to desire bodily activity (after much difficulty of casting off those subtle and gross material bodies) and enter an inactive dormant state of consciousness that is within and part of each marginal living entities capacity of expression, in this case inactivity.
The individual baddha-jivas who enter this ‘consciousness’ are expressing the impersonal side of their nature and is known as their impersonal Brahmajyoti feature. In other words the impersonal Brahmajyoti is the dormant inactive characteristic of the ‘baddha’-jiva
So where this painting is misleading is the impersonal Brahmajyoti or the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, is NOT some place within the over all universes but is rather a state of inactive consciousness ‘desired’ by the baddha-jiva aspect of the marginal living entity. (That ultimately is also only a temporary condition because the inherent nature of all marginal living entities is ‘activity’
Keep in mind the baddha-jiva consciousness is the sub-conscious or rebellious state of the soul that ignores ones Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha body or the full expression and potential that is the make up of every of every marginal living entity
Those who believe the jiva originates from some inactive state or from the Vraja River or the Body of Maha-Vishnu are actually propagating Impersonalism. The real facts are that all marginal living entities come from the pastimes of Krishna by their own foolish choice. This is the teaching of Srila Prabhupada.
Darkness cannot be left over in the presents of light because light dissipates all darkness. In other words while there is light (nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body), darkness (nitya-baddha condition) does not exist.
This means that when one’s ‘awareness’ is AGAIN situated as the eternal presence of their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the nitya-baddha sub-conscious darkness in the material creation no longer exists.
Tatastha-sakti is just another name of the jiva tattva or marginal living entity and those who are sakti tattva are actually expansions of Vishnu tattva or Krishna's internal potency, they are NEVER jiva tattva and of course can never fall down like the jiva tattva's can if they choose. In the Caitanya Caritamrita so many associates of Lord Caitanya are sakti tattva or expansions of Krishna. In the Pancha tattva only one soul is jiva tattva
Radharani is Vishnu tattva calling her nitya siddha is not right because she can never be nitya baddha - it's even silly to suggest this, Vishnu-sakti-tattva are also expansions of Krishna and it would be wrong to also call them nitya siddha even though some schools of thought do in the Gaudiya math
understanding lila can be difficult, at least for me. Vishnu expansions in another form doing austerity to attain a position as Krishna's conjectural lover is very confidential knowledge and such lilas are plenty in the Caitanya Caritamrita where so many Vishnu tattvas and Vishnu-sakti-tattv, that are also Vishnu-tattvas, seemingly did austerity to be with Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda -- it's all in the name of lila, that is what the whole universe is for as far as Krishna is concerned. Krishna is just having fun with himself and taking the jiva tattvas along for the blissful ride
So this only means there are two meanings to nitya siddha - Although the nitya-siddha expansions of Krsna always remain with Krsna - and then this - Srila Prabhupada - “The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha” Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.107 New York, July 13, 1976
Lord Krishna states that our constitutional nature is that all marginal living beings are eternal servants of the Lord. So to say that ‘conditioned’ souls have never been ‘unconditioned’ in Goloka-Vrndavana is incorrect.
When a marginal living being are in a conditioned state (nitya-baddha) that doesn’t take away their eternal absolute nature as a nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna who is forever fixed within the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka Vrndavana: the rebellious marginal living entity simply becomes overshadowed with the concept of past, present and future instigated by free-will and choice putting them out of sync with the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka which is their natural home
As a result, they have now adopted the relative perception of existence that places them within the mahat-tattva’s bodily vessels, which are all the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. The jiva tattvas as their nitya baddha condition ‘go through’ Maha Vishnu and are not from Him to enter the mahat-tattva or material creation. This is important to understand.
As a result of this choice of ‘falling down’ from Goloka, the marginal living entity is no longer ‘aware’ of Goloka or their nitya-siddha body that is perpetually situated in the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka. So technically the living entities nitya siddha body never falls down, only their consciousness does as a ‘dream condition’ that enters the ‘dreams’ of Maha Vishnu.
As in our case in the material world, we are presently ‘eternally conditioned’ (nitya-baddha) because long, long, long, long ago we made that choice to forget Krishna and simultaneously the ‘awareness’ of our nitya-siddha (eternally liberated) body we serve Krishna as. And when again we achieve liberation from this material world due to the mercy of pure devotee, we will enter Goloka AGAIN by the method of becoming ‘aware’ of our genuine nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body that is always there in Goloka and become ‘eternally liberated’ or in simple terms, we wake up from the MATERIAL DREAM.
No jiva tattvas originate from Maha Vishnu, they may go through him but they certainly do not originate from him, they also do not originate from a dormant state known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti or impersonal Brahman either
Srila Prabhupada – “Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition”. - Letter, June 13, 1970.
From Srila Prabhupada’s teachings we learn that the dormant impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, where souls are in an individual slumber, is also a fallen state that one has entered previously from the mahat-tattva (material creation) Therefore no souls ‘originate’ from the dormant characteristic of the Brahmajyoti, that is not possible because ALL living entities originate directly from the pastimes of Lord Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana.
The technical term for the jiva-soul that enters the mahat-tattva material creation and then the impersonal Brahmajyoti after becoming fed up with material existence is the baddha-jiva (The secondary condition of the marginal living entity, the original condition of the jiva tattva is nitya-siddha in Goloka) The baddha-jiva state in the impersonal brahmajyoti is a dreamless dream or inactive condition of consciousness that 'hovers' in the impersonal Brahmajyoti and exists in that state ONLY while the baddha-jiva is 'inactive' in the impersonal Brahmajyoti that is also a temporary condition of conscious awareness, eventually they fall down from there to again take material vessels in the material world or mahat tattva.
I’m aware how some schools of thought in Hinduism like some in the Gaudiya Math incorrectly claim that the some jiva-souls originally emanate from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, which, they claim, is growing with a constant march of new jiva-souls. They further incorrectly claim that within the dormant characteristics of the Brahmajyoti, the immovability of these inactive jiva-souls is ‘somehow’ disturbed and movement begins. They then claim that from non-differentiation, separation begins. From a bare expanse of standardized consciousness, individual conscious components grow. Srila Prabhupada rejected the nonsense idea that souls ‘originate’ from the impersonal Brahmajyoti from a dormant state of consciousness.
To start with, the jiva souls are never created because they have always been. Actually our perpetual origins are directly from Krishna’s pastimes in Goloka because originally EVERY JIVA SOUL is a selfless nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna within His pastimes.
We do not have a problem with Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s Books but we DO have problem with MIS-INTERPRETATIONS from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s books by most in the Gaudiya math.
In fact, Srila Prabhupada admonished against taking any outside instructions.
From Srila Prabhupada’s Books, letters, morning walks and classes does Prabhupada instruct us, he is the final word on ALL past Acharays, only from Prabhupada we learn everything they preach and all our comments, essays and preaching must be based on Srila Prabhupada’s teachings above all else.
Even in understanding Vedic Cosmology, Prabhupada found many Vedic Scholar’s translations totally useless so what ever we find must be in line with Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, he is giving ‘Sastra’ he learnt from his Guru, he is a true honest selfless ‘Sadhu’ and he is a bonafide ‘Guru’ who has done more to preach Krishna Consciousness than all previous Acharays combined.
Srila Prabhupada’s teachings ARE the combination of all the Acharays and his quotes, comments and mention of them is all we need to know. There is a life time just reading Prabhupada’s Books and hearing or reading all his lectures and morning walks, there is no need to associate with other sangas other than ISKCON
Srila Prabhupada - “Whatever is to be learned of the teachings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura can be learned from our books. There is no need whatsoever for any outside instruction” Letter 73-12-25: Gurukrpa, Yasodanandana
Acyutananda – “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns. He can return?”
Srila Prabhupada – “If he likes he can return”.
Guru-kripa – “How is it that one can become envious of Krishna?”
Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976)
Only a minority fall down from Goloka and Vaikuntha and for them the mahat-tattva is created. No jiva souls originate from an impersonal source or from some cleat sheet of consciousness as some foolishly believe and teach.
Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?”
Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”.”. Los Angeles, June 23, 1975
In this way, the 25% of the Spiritual Sky that is material only caters for less than 10% of the jiva tattvas who choose to leave Vaikuntha for the mahat tattva or material creation, more than 90% of jiva tattvas always ‘choose’ to remain in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana.
Of course the many Sakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas expansions of Krishna never fall down and many, many individuals in Goloka Vrndavan are in that category however, we are jiva tattva and can choose to remain in Vaikuntha or leave for the mahat tattva creation of Maha Vishnu
Acyutananda: 'But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.””
Prabhupada: But if he likes, he can return.
Acyutananda: He can return
Prabhupada: That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that.… That misuse is the cause of our falldown. Room Conversation February 19, 1976 Mayapur
Rather than placating the fall position, Srila Prabhupada refutes the no-fall position. We can fall even after returning back home, back to godhead.
From Srila Prabhupada’s Books, letters, morning walks and classes does Prabhupada instruct us, he is the final word on ALL past Acharays, only from Prabhupada we learn everything they preach and all our comments, essays and preaching must be based on Srila Prabhupada’s teachings above all else.
What ever we find must be in line with Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, he is giving ‘Sastra’ he learnt from his Guru, he is a true honest selfless ‘Sadhu’ and he is a bonafide ‘Guru’ who has done more to preach Krishna Consciousness than all previous Acharays combined.
Srila Prabhupada’s teachings ARE the combination of all the Acharays and his quotes, comments and mention of them is all we need to know. There is a life time just reading Prabhupada’s Books and hearing or reading all his lectures and morning walks, there is no need to associate with other sangas other than ISKCON
Ones fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana is due to free will and choice not maya, there is no material cause for ones fall down from Goloka Vrndavana
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could be come the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence”.
Srila Prabhupada - “That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? ”So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Srila Prabhupada was very clear on this subject - “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport” Letter to Madhudvisa Swam 1972
Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna album
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.”. July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, you are not conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)Srila Prabhupada - “You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this Maya. This is called Maya”.
Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972
We have to realize that being marginal means free will, even in Goloka. Without it how can there be genuine Love?
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura - “As long as the jiva takes full shelter of the Supreme Lord he remains a resident of Vaikuntha. But when his innate spiritual knowledge of the Lord is covered by forgetfulness, he is placed outside the transcendental realm.” (Caitanya Siksamrita, Sanmod-ana Bhasya-sloka-1)
Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to God or Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Homburg, Germany, June 22, 1974
This seems to be pretty clear according to Srila Prabhupada, who rejects the 'impersonal Brahmajyoti origin that claims that the marginal living entity is originally in a dormant state from where one can use their free will to choose either Vaikuntha or the mahat-tattva.
Similarly, the nitya-siddha body of the marginal living entity is always in Goloka-Vrndavana but due to the selfish desires of the marginal living entity that cover the marginal living entities ‘awareness’ of their nitya-siddha body, it appears that the darkness or the nitya-baddha secondary consciousness has replaced the nitya-siddha body, but that is NOT so, one’s nitya-siddha body is ALWAYS in Goloka even when one dreams they are nitya-baddha in the mahat-tattva or material creation.
The rebellious marginal living entity simply becomes overshadowed with the concept of past, present and future instigated by free-will, choice and their absolute smallness putting them out of sync with the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka where their nitya-siddha body is perpetually situated.
As a result, they have now adopted the relative perception of existence that places them within the mahat-tattva’s bodily vessels, which are all the dreams of the sleeping Maha-Vishnu.
As a result of this choice, the marginal living entity is no longer ‘aware’ of Goloka or their nitya-siddha body in Goloka that is perpetually fixed there due to the eternal presence of Krishna consciousness as already explained and are now nitya baddha trapped in the mahat-tattva of Maha-Vishnu
As in our case in the material world, we are presently ‘eternally conditioned’ (nitya-baddha) because long, long, long, long ago we made that choice to forget Krishna and simultaneously the ‘awareness’ of our nitya-siddha (eternally liberated) body we serve Krishna as.
And when again we achieve liberation from this material world due to the mercy of pure devotee, we will enter Goloka AGAIN by the method of becoming ‘aware’ of our genuine nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body or in simple terms, we begin to distinguish who we really our that separates us from the MATERIAL DREAM state or nitya-baddha fallen self centred consciousness.
Alan Ginsberg - “How did the material covering begin?”
Srila Prabhupada - “Begin?”
Alan Ginsberg - “As the material shadow. How did we fall into that?
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes. Yes. That is very natural. . . Because jiva, although para-sakti, he has got independence. So when he wants to imitate Krishna”.
Alan Ginsberg - “. How did we fall into that?”
Srila Prabhupada - “In the spiritual world, Krishna is the enjoyer. And all others, they are enjoyed–predominator and the predominating. The Lord is the predominating, so there is no disagreement. There they know, ‘The Lord is predominator; we have to serve.’ When this service attitude is impaired, that–’Why serve Krishna? Why not ourself?’–that is Maya”. - Room conversation with Allen Ginsberg in Columbus, OH 5-14-69
Devotee - “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krsna, we have a perfect relationship with Krsna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we re already serving Krsna?
Srila Prabhupada - “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.” And as soon as you associate with the material nature, then you fall down.
Devotee - “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…
Srila Prabhupada - “Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire…” Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 13.22-24 — Melbourne, June 25, 1974
Devotee - “You commented that everyone has a natural desire to have relationship with Krsna, but that because…
Srila Prabhupada - “Not desire, but he is already established”.
Devotee - ” Established.
Srila Prabhupada - “That is covered. Just like your relationship with somebody as father and son, it is established. You might have forgot, you might have left your home since a very, very long time, and you do not know who is your father, but there is some father. That is a fact. Nobody can say, “No. I, I have, I am born without father.” Nobody can say. One has father, but it may be that he has forgotten his father.
So this Krsna consciousness movement is that we have got some relationship with the Supreme Lord. That we have now forgotten. So it is not the question of desire. It is there. You don’t desire to become one’s son, you are already one’s son.
You simply do not know. Similarly, your relationship with Krsna is there, every one of us, but I have forgotten; I do not know. This Krsna consciousness practice will revive your relationship in what way, in which way you are related with Krsna. It is not that you have to desire.
No. It is already there. You have to desire only how to revive it, that’s all. That is Krsna consciousness. It is not an artificial thing. Just like we are establishing some relationship with somebody or you are my father or you are my wife, you are my husband. No. It is already there. Simply we have to find out.
That will be revealed when you are perfect in Krsna consciousness, brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati, you are freed from all material contamination, and you are perfectly situated in devotional service; it will be at once revealed: “Oh, you are related to Krsna.” You will have to wait for that. Bhagavad-gita Los Angeles, November 23, 1968
Paramahamsa - “But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return.
Srila Prabhupada - “There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is”.
Paramahamsa - “If we want”.
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”.
Paramahamsa - “So we can come to the spiritual world and return?”
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”.
Paramahamsa - “Fall down?”
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go.” Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness.
It’s not so difficult to ‘realize’ that long, long, long, long ago we were with Krishna as our permanent real nitya-siddha body but have now chosen not only to forget Krishna, but also forget that nitya-siddha body within the realm of perpetual originality called Vaikuntha
When a devotee regains his/hers original Krsna Consciousness and re-establishes ‘the awareness’ of their nitya-siddha-svarupa body in Goloka, which is never lost while dreaming as nitya-baddha in the perishable creation, does not mean that one is only restricted by one particular svarupa (body) for eternity in Krishna’s pastimes
Ones eternal body is not limited to any particular nitya-siddha body they have there.
Also there are examples of devotees participating in the pastimes of the Lord in more than one svarupa at the same time, therefore our eternal rasa can change in Goloka; even though our nitya siddha or rasa body is perpetually situated in Goloka as a two armed form in it’s originality as Srila Prabhupada confirms -
Devotee - “Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?”
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes, human form. God is also human form. “Man is made after the shape of God.” So God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs”. Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.1-4 - Melbourne, May 20, 1975
So unlike the material bodies in the mahat-tattva that are temporary decaying vessels the nitya-baddha consciousness moves around in, we ARE our body (nitya-siddha) in Goloka though, that body can transform because our eternal svarupa is interchangeable.
For example, ones svarupa can change to a four-armed form in the Vaikuntha Planets or a different form in Lord Caitanya’s pastimes in the top most platform in Goloka that He sometimes brings to the material world as pastimes, although very rare.
In simple terms, one has the ability to ’shape shift’ into any form to please Krsna Caitanya and can also be in many places in various forms at the same time.
Caitanya Caritamrita is full of such examples. Most are Vishnu tattva expansions although there are many jiva tattva’s like Naradha Muni as well. No jiva tattva in Lord Caitanya Lila is restricted only to their two-armed perpetual svarupa-nitya-siddha body
Srivasa Thakura is known as Narada Muni, he also has his svarupa manifestation in Goloka. Therefore, by the elegance of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Narada Muni is also simultaneously situated in the top most regions of Goloka where Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s endless pastimes are going on.
Further more, Srila Prabhupada has explained that Narada Muni enters the material world often disguised in different bodily vessels to preach Krishna Consciousness.
Who can understand the multidimensional full potential abilities of the liberated nitya-siddha souls?
Srila Prabhupada mentions in the 4th Canto Chapter 28 of the Srimad Bhagavatam that Krishna says - “Don’t you remember me? I was your very close friend, but you gave up My Company and came to this material world”.
When asked directly about whether the jiva was ever in the spiritual world, Srila Prabhupada mentions in the 4th Canto Chapter 28 of the Srimad Bhagavatam that Krishna (in the form of a Brahmana) says to King Puranjana (in his next life, as the daughter of Kind Vidarbha) “Don’t you remember me? I was your very close friend, but you gave up My Company and came to this material world”.
Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.52: The Brahmana inquired as follows: Who are you? Whose wife or daughter are you? Who is the man laying here? It appears you are lamenting for this dead body. Don’t you recognize Me? I am your eternal friend. You may remember that many times in the past you have consulted Me.
Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53: The Brahmana continued: My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can’t you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world.
Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.54: My dear gentle friend, both you and I are exactly like two swans. We live together in the same heart, which is just like the Mānasa Lake. Although we have been living together for many thousands of years, we are still far away from our original home.
Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.55: My dear friend, you are now My very same friend. Since you left Me, you have become more and more materialistic, and not seeing Me, you have been travelling in different forms throughout this material world, which was created by some woman.
In understanding Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 7 Chapter 1 Text 35 Purport one has to first understand that Jaya and Vijaya caused an offence to Brahmanas and as a result were given two choices to atone from their offence.
They could either take three births in the material world as demons or they could take seven births as devotees. They chose to be in the material body as powerful demons so they could get back to Vaikuntha quicker. After all they were trapped in bodies that were under the control of past, present and future.
Now they come from Vaikuntha under Krishna’s compassion meaning they were given the opportunity to engage in Krishna’s pastimes while in the material world as Demons, so when their offence was atoned they were immediately re-established in their eternal original svarupa in Vaikuntha back within the eternal presence of Krishna Consciousness.
It must be understood they new they made a mistake by offending Brahmanas; at no point did they give up Krishna as we have done.
In other parts of Srila Prabhupada’s writings, he calls their offence as a fall down, this is why in the purport of the Srimad Bhagavatam 7.1.35 Srila Prabhupada says “This very significant question would be difficult for an ordinary person to answer, but Narada Muni, being an authority, could answer it”.
Now those who are associates of the Lord of course do not leave Goloka for the material dream or fall down AS LONG AS THEY CHOOSE TO SERVE KRISHNA however, there are those, less than 10% of Krishna jiva-tattva associates in Vaikuntha and Goloka, who DO choose to come to this material world and forget Krishna, they are only interested in their own exploits and want nothing to do with Krishna.
That can include any jiva-tattva (marginal) associate of Krishnas in Goloka who no longer choose to be an associate, any jiva-tattva can leave Goloka for the material creation, but most choose not to make that mistake. The important point is THERE IS ALWAYS CHOICE.
They therefore think, dream or imagine they fall - actually no falls from Vaikuntha because their nitya-siddha body is perpetually fixed there within the eternal presence of Krishna’s pastimes.
As the CC states all marginal living entities are originally nitya-siddha and only the Vishnu-tattvas never forget their position in Krishna lila. Some come to the material creation in Krishna’s lila while others come to for fill their own selfish dreams.
As there are no killing of demons in Vaikuntha, Krishna plays this role as His Vishnu expansion in the material creation with all his nitya siddha jiva-tattvas and Vishnu-tattva associates however, there are other jiva-tattva souls who choose to leave Goloka simply because of their choice not to be with Krishna, THERE IS NO MATERIAL CAUSE FOR THEM FORGETTING GOLOKA OR VAIKUNTHA OTHER THAN FREE WILL AND CHOICE.
Srila Prabhupada makes it clear in the fourth canto of Srimad Bhagavatam and numerous lectures, letters and morning walks we originate from Goloka.
Srila Prabhupada explains we have marginal independence as part of our nature as marginal living entities. We can misuse such independence even in Goloka or Vaikuntha with out any material cause, it simply happens because it is there in our own fundamental spiritual nature as independent (marginal) living beings.
This means a small minority, less than 10% of jiva-tattva nitya-siddha souls in Vaikuntha or Goloka choose to leave. For this purpose Krishna, via His Maha-Vishnu expansion, creates the mahat-tattva (material creation) for them.
The marginal living entities full potential of loving selfless devotion to Krishna and His loving devotees is based on individuality, independence and the right to choose; we never loose that right to choose, not even in Vaikuntha. Surrender to Krishna and His pure devotees do not mean to become mindless porns in Vaikuntha and ‘yes’ men/women to Krishna.
No, everything in Vaikuntha is based on reciprocal loving service even if it is a fact that we surrender selflessly and unconditionally. The fact is that’s how Krishna also treats us. Having free will and choice gives us the opportunity to give ourselves in our own unique way. That choice is always there even in Goloka or Vaikuntha and must be there if genuine love is to exist.
It is not that we first have to be contacted by the modes of material nature to fall down from Goloka or Vaikuntha. It’s all to do with a combination of choice and the sheer smallness of the marginal living entity.
And even then due to that smallness and choice, we only ‘think, imagine or dream’ we are fallen that we become fallen. The fact is we never fall; our nitya-siddha body never leaves Goloka
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could be come the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking”. July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence”.
Srila Prabhupada - “That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Regarding to how a nitya siddha in Goloka can fall down to nitya baddha in the material world, Srila Prabhupada explains we have marginal independence as part of our nature in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrndavana.
We can misuse such independence even in Goloka or Vaikuntha with out any material cause, it simply happens because it is there in our own fundamental spiritual nature as independent (marginal) living beings.
Maya is not the cause of ones fall down from Vaikuntha, that is not possible she only exists in the mahat-tattva. The cause of ones fall down is ones own independent desires of self importance based on free will and choice.
One simply chooses to no longer serve Krishna as their nitya siddha body. As a result, they eventually forget their nitya-siddha body and leave Vaikuntha and enter the mahat tattva as their nitya-baddha secondary self that is the sub-conscious non-Krishna conscious condition of the marginal living entity.
it should of been made clear that the entire universes of Krishna and His Vishnu-tattvas, jiva-tattvas, Goloka-Vrndavana, Vaikuntha’s and the mahat-tattva (material creation) and the impersonal Brahmajyoti are all collectively the Brahmajyoti or everything that is.
The Vaikuntha’s were never created so the word ‘creation’ cannot be used for Goloka-Vrndavana and the Vaikuntha realm, nor can it be used to explain the marginal living entities (jiva-tattvas) or Krishna and His unlimited Vishnu-tattva expansions.
The word creation can only apply to the mahat-tattva material ‘creation’ because it has a beginning and end.
The ‘impersonal Brahmajyoti’ or the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky is actually a very small minority of souls in their baddha-jiva inferior feature that becomes established in that ‘impersonal’ dormant state due to the influence of being covered and frustrated within the mahat-tattva that souls fall to and are covered (material vessels that belong to the mahat-tattva) by when they choose to no longer serve Krsna in Goloka or Vaikuntha.
In other words, when souls become fed up with the material creation of changing material bodies or vessels, they can escape this cycle of birth and death by either realizing their full potential nitya-siddha body that is always in Goloka even while they ‘imagine’ themselves to be in the mahat-tattva, or they can cease to desire bodily activity (after much difficulty of casting off those subtle and gross material bodies) and enter an inactive dormant state of consciousness that is within and part of each marginal living entities capacity of expression, in this case inactivity.
The individual baddha-jivas who enter this ‘consciousness’ are expressing the impersonal side of their nature and is known as their impersonal Brahmajyoti feature. In other words the impersonal Brahmajyoti is the dormant inactive characteristic of the ‘baddha’-jiva
So where this painting is misleading is the impersonal Brahmajyoti or the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, is NOT some place within the over all universes but is rather a state of inactive consciousness ‘desired’ by the baddha-jiva aspect of the marginal living entity. (That ultimately is also only a temporary condition because the inherent nature of all marginal living entities is ‘activity’
Keep in mind the baddha-jiva consciousness is the sub-conscious or rebellious state of the soul that ignores ones Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha body or the full expression and potential that is the make up of every of every marginal living entity
Those who believe the jiva originates from some inactive state or from the Vraja River or the Body of Maha-Vishnu are actually propagating Impersonalism. The real facts are that all marginal living entities come from the pastimes of Krishna by their own foolish choice. This is the teaching of Srila Prabhupada.
Darkness cannot be left over in the presents of light because light dissipates all darkness. In other words while there is light (nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body), darkness (nitya-baddha condition) does not exist.
This means that when one’s ‘awareness’ is AGAIN situated as the eternal presence of their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the nitya-baddha sub-conscious darkness in the material creation no longer exists.
Tatastha-sakti is just another name of the jiva tattva or marginal living entity and those who are sakti tattva are actually expansions of Vishnu tattva or Krishna's internal potency, they are NEVER jiva tattva and of course can never fall down like the jiva tattva's can if they choose. In the Caitanya Caritamrita so many associates of Lord Caitanya are sakti tattva or expansions of Krishna. In the Pancha tattva only one soul is jiva tattva
Radharani is Vishnu tattva calling her nitya siddha is not right because she can never be nitya baddha - it's even silly to suggest this, Vishnu-sakti-tattva are also expansions of Krishna and it would be wrong to also call them nitya siddha even though some schools of thought do in the Gaudiya math
understanding lila can be difficult, at least for me. Vishnu expansions in another form doing austerity to attain a position as Krishna's conjectural lover is very confidential knowledge and such lilas are plenty in the Caitanya Caritamrita where so many Vishnu tattvas and Vishnu-sakti-tattv, that are also Vishnu-tattvas, seemingly did austerity to be with Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda -- it's all in the name of lila, that is what the whole universe is for as far as Krishna is concerned. Krishna is just having fun with himself and taking the jiva tattvas along for the blissful ride
So this only means there are two meanings to nitya siddha - Although the nitya-siddha expansions of Krsna always remain with Krsna - and then this - Srila Prabhupada - “The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha” Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.107 New York, July 13, 1976
Lord Krishna states that our constitutional nature is that all marginal living beings are eternal servants of the Lord. So to say that ‘conditioned’ souls have never been ‘unconditioned’ in Goloka-Vrndavana is incorrect.
When a marginal living being are in a conditioned state (nitya-baddha) that doesn’t take away their eternal absolute nature as a nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna who is forever fixed within the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka Vrndavana: the rebellious marginal living entity simply becomes overshadowed with the concept of past, present and future instigated by free-will and choice putting them out of sync with the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka which is their natural home
As a result, they have now adopted the relative perception of existence that places them within the mahat-tattva’s bodily vessels, which are all the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. The jiva tattvas as their nitya baddha condition ‘go through’ Maha Vishnu and are not from Him to enter the mahat-tattva or material creation. This is important to understand.
As a result of this choice of ‘falling down’ from Goloka, the marginal living entity is no longer ‘aware’ of Goloka or their nitya-siddha body that is perpetually situated in the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka. So technically the living entities nitya siddha body never falls down, only their consciousness does as a ‘dream condition’ that enters the ‘dreams’ of Maha Vishnu.
As in our case in the material world, we are presently ‘eternally conditioned’ (nitya-baddha) because long, long, long, long ago we made that choice to forget Krishna and simultaneously the ‘awareness’ of our nitya-siddha (eternally liberated) body we serve Krishna as. And when again we achieve liberation from this material world due to the mercy of pure devotee, we will enter Goloka AGAIN by the method of becoming ‘aware’ of our genuine nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body that is always there in Goloka and become ‘eternally liberated’ or in simple terms, we wake up from the MATERIAL DREAM.
No jiva tattvas originate from Maha Vishnu, they may go through him but they certainly do not originate from him, they also do not originate from a dormant state known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti or impersonal Brahman either
Srila Prabhupada – “Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition”. - Letter, June 13, 1970.
From Srila Prabhupada’s teachings we learn that the dormant impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, where souls are in an individual slumber, is also a fallen state that one has entered previously from the mahat-tattva (material creation) Therefore no souls ‘originate’ from the dormant characteristic of the Brahmajyoti, that is not possible because ALL living entities originate directly from the pastimes of Lord Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana.
The technical term for the jiva-soul that enters the mahat-tattva material creation and then the impersonal Brahmajyoti after becoming fed up with material existence is the baddha-jiva (The secondary condition of the marginal living entity, the original condition of the jiva tattva is nitya-siddha in Goloka) The baddha-jiva state in the impersonal brahmajyoti is a dreamless dream or inactive condition of consciousness that 'hovers' in the impersonal Brahmajyoti and exists in that state ONLY while the baddha-jiva is 'inactive' in the impersonal Brahmajyoti that is also a temporary condition of conscious awareness, eventually they fall down from there to again take material vessels in the material world or mahat tattva.
I’m aware how some schools of thought in Hinduism like some in the Gaudiya Math incorrectly claim that the some jiva-souls originally emanate from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, which, they claim, is growing with a constant march of new jiva-souls. They further incorrectly claim that within the dormant characteristics of the Brahmajyoti, the immovability of these inactive jiva-souls is ‘somehow’ disturbed and movement begins. They then claim that from non-differentiation, separation begins. From a bare expanse of standardized consciousness, individual conscious components grow. Srila Prabhupada rejected the nonsense idea that souls ‘originate’ from the impersonal Brahmajyoti from a dormant state of consciousness.
To start with, the jiva souls are never created because they have always been. Actually our perpetual origins are directly from Krishna’s pastimes in Goloka because originally EVERY JIVA SOUL is a selfless nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna within His pastimes.
We do not have a problem with Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s Books but we DO have problem with MIS-INTERPRETATIONS from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s books by most in the Gaudiya math.
In fact, Srila Prabhupada admonished against taking any outside instructions.
From Srila Prabhupada’s Books, letters, morning walks and classes does Prabhupada instruct us, he is the final word on ALL past Acharays, only from Prabhupada we learn everything they preach and all our comments, essays and preaching must be based on Srila Prabhupada’s teachings above all else.
Even in understanding Vedic Cosmology, Prabhupada found many Vedic Scholar’s translations totally useless so what ever we find must be in line with Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, he is giving ‘Sastra’ he learnt from his Guru, he is a true honest selfless ‘Sadhu’ and he is a bonafide ‘Guru’ who has done more to preach Krishna Consciousness than all previous Acharays combined.
Srila Prabhupada’s teachings ARE the combination of all the Acharays and his quotes, comments and mention of them is all we need to know. There is a life time just reading Prabhupada’s Books and hearing or reading all his lectures and morning walks, there is no need to associate with other sangas other than ISKCON
Srila Prabhupada - “Whatever is to be learned of the teachings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura can be learned from our books. There is no need whatsoever for any outside instruction” Letter 73-12-25: Gurukrpa, Yasodanandana
Acyutananda – “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns. He can return?”
Srila Prabhupada – “If he likes he can return”.
Guru-kripa – “How is it that one can become envious of Krishna?”
Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976)
Only a minority fall down from Goloka and Vaikuntha and for them the mahat-tattva is created. No jiva souls originate from an impersonal source or from some cleat sheet of consciousness as some foolishly believe and teach.
Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?”
Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”.”. Los Angeles, June 23, 1975
In this way, the 25% of the Spiritual Sky that is material only caters for less than 10% of the jiva tattvas who choose to leave Vaikuntha for the mahat tattva or material creation, more than 90% of jiva tattvas always ‘choose’ to remain in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana.
Of course the many Sakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas expansions of Krishna never fall down and many, many individuals in Goloka Vrndavan are in that category however, we are jiva tattva and can choose to remain in Vaikuntha or leave for the mahat tattva creation of Maha Vishnu
Acyutananda: 'But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.””
Prabhupada: But if he likes, he can return.
Acyutananda: He can return
Prabhupada: That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that.… That misuse is the cause of our falldown. Room Conversation February 19, 1976 Mayapur
Rather than placating the fall position, Srila Prabhupada refutes the no-fall position. We can fall even after returning back home, back to godhead.
From Srila Prabhupada’s Books, letters, morning walks and classes does Prabhupada instruct us, he is the final word on ALL past Acharays, only from Prabhupada we learn everything they preach and all our comments, essays and preaching must be based on Srila Prabhupada’s teachings above all else.
What ever we find must be in line with Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, he is giving ‘Sastra’ he learnt from his Guru, he is a true honest selfless ‘Sadhu’ and he is a bonafide ‘Guru’ who has done more to preach Krishna Consciousness than all previous Acharays combined.
Srila Prabhupada’s teachings ARE the combination of all the Acharays and his quotes, comments and mention of them is all we need to know. There is a life time just reading Prabhupada’s Books and hearing or reading all his lectures and morning walks, there is no need to associate with other sangas other than ISKCON
Ones fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana is due to free will and choice not maya, there is no material cause for ones fall down from Goloka Vrndavana
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could be come the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence”.
Srila Prabhupada - “That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? ”So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Srila Prabhupada was very clear on this subject - “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport” Letter to Madhudvisa Swam 1972
Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna album
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.”. July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, you are not conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)Srila Prabhupada - “You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this Maya. This is called Maya”.
Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972
We have to realize that being marginal means free will, even in Goloka. Without it how can there be genuine Love?
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura - “As long as the jiva takes full shelter of the Supreme Lord he remains a resident of Vaikuntha. But when his innate spiritual knowledge of the Lord is covered by forgetfulness, he is placed outside the transcendental realm.” (Caitanya Siksamrita, Sanmod-ana Bhasya-sloka-1)
Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to God or Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Homburg, Germany, June 22, 1974
This seems to be pretty clear according to Srila Prabhupada, who rejects the 'impersonal Brahmajyoti origin that claims that the marginal living entity is originally in a dormant state from where one can use their free will to choose either Vaikuntha or the mahat-tattva.
Many today in 'Hinduism' follow that misunderstanding and it appears to me, they have incorrectly used the word 'tatastha' to describe this impersonal dormant origin state of the jiva, yes the jiva tattva may be in a state of inactivity however, long, long before being in that already fallen position he was with Krishna.
Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Vishnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam. 4.29.83.
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam. 4.29.83.
Srila Prabhupada – “After being in contact with the material modes of nature, the living entity develops the subtle and gross bodies. When the living entity is fortunate enough to associate with Sri Narada Mahamuni or his servants, he is liberated from this ‘dreamland’ of material creation and the bodily conception of life”. Srimad Bhagavatam 4/29/83/
Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a ‘dream’. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” Srimad Bhagavatam. 4.29.2.
Srila Prabhupada – “This material world is a product of the mahat-tattva, which is a state of the Lord's dreaming condition in His yoga-nidra mystic slumber in the Causal Ocean, and yet the whole creation appears to be a factual presentation of His creation. This means that the Lord's dreaming conditions are also factual manifestations. He can therefore bring everything under His transcendental control, and thus whenever and wherever He does appear, He does so in His fullness”. Srimad Bhagavatam 1.16.26-30
We were originally ‘aware’ of ‘always’ being with Krsna, (nitya-siddha) but we chose to forget that fact and become ‘unaware’ of our perpetual nitya-siddha body and service to Krishna because we made the choice to not service Krishna which was the beginning of our fall down.
In that state of forgetfulness we think or dream we have fallen (As nitya-baddha), but actually we are not fallen. We simply have to wake up and remember who we really are, and then we will be in our original position
The dream condition and our dream identity (nitya-baddha conscious state) will then disappear and we will find ourselves in our natural position as nitya-siddha, just like a person who is dreaming wakes up on his own bed. Actually, he is always on his own bed, even in the dream. Similarly, we are always in Goloka even when we ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are in the material creation.
In this way, Srila Prabhupada gives us the way to understand how we can find ourselves separated from Krsna without really “falling” from Vaikuntha even though it appears we have fallen due to forgetting who we really are. Srila Prabhupada in this way explains in his lectures how the living entities can fall down from their eternal relationship with Krsna without really falling down, this Book how this paradox comes about.
Is the jiva soul always called marginal energy?
Srila Prabhupada - “The answer to your question about the marginal energy is that the jiva soul is always called marginal energy whether he is in the spiritual world or in the material world. There are instances where marginal energy jiva souls have fallen from the spiritual world, just like Jaya and Vijaya. So the potency to fall under the influence of the lower energy is always there. And thus the individual jiva soul is called as Krishna’s marginal energy.” - Letter to Rayarama, December 2, 1968
Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…(In Vaikuntha) so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material”.
Srila Prabhupada – “Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with (This biological body or vessel and the material creation). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971
Srila Prabhupada - “Every living being has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally, That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi-perfection of one’s constitutional position. Bhagavad-Gita as it is, Introduction.
Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone (all marginal living entities) is nitya-siddha (eternally liberated)” Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977
Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977
Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". Germany, June 22, 1974
The jiva-soul is always marginal energy wether devotionally active in Goloka-Vrndavana, in Vaikuntha, or active in restricted vessels within the material creation, dormant in the Body of Maha-Vishnu or further inactive in the Vraja River and the Impersonal Brahmajyoti that are ALL occupied by nitya-baddha souls.
Originally the jiva soul was engaged with Krishna in an original loving selfless relationship as nitya-siddha from which he has fallen however, the fall down was not a physical fall down as their nitya-siddha body but rather was a ‘sub-conscious’ fall down from the ‘awareness’ of their nitya-siddha body which is called the nitya-baddha-jiva
Srila Prabhupada - "We are all originally situated on the platform of Krishna consciousness in our eternal personal relationship of love of Krishna." - Letter of November 17, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - "He is fallen already from Vaikuntha planet. He is fallen in this material world, and he is again trying to make progress." Srimad Bhagavatam lecture of June 15, 1972
Srila Prabhupada - " . . . After all, the living entity falls down from the spiritual world . . . There is possibility . . . even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down--what to speak of this material world." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on July 4, 1974
Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Vishnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam. 4.29.83.
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam. 4.29.83.
Srila Prabhupada – “After being in contact with the material modes of nature, the living entity develops the subtle and gross bodies. When the living entity is fortunate enough to associate with Sri Narada Mahamuni or his servants, he is liberated from this ‘dreamland’ of material creation and the bodily conception of life”. Srimad Bhagavatam 4/29/83/
Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a ‘dream’. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” Srimad Bhagavatam. 4.29.2.
Srila Prabhupada – “This material world is a product of the mahat-tattva, which is a state of the Lord's dreaming condition in His yoga-nidra mystic slumber in the Causal Ocean, and yet the whole creation appears to be a factual presentation of His creation. This means that the Lord's dreaming conditions are also factual manifestations. He can therefore bring everything under His transcendental control, and thus whenever and wherever He does appear, He does so in His fullness”. Srimad Bhagavatam 1.16.26-30
We were originally ‘aware’ of ‘always’ being with Krsna, (nitya-siddha) but we chose to forget that fact and become ‘unaware’ of our perpetual nitya-siddha body and service to Krishna because we made the choice to not service Krishna which was the beginning of our fall down.
In that state of forgetfulness we think or dream we have fallen (As nitya-baddha), but actually we are not fallen. We simply have to wake up and remember who we really are, and then we will be in our original position
The dream condition and our dream identity (nitya-baddha conscious state) will then disappear and we will find ourselves in our natural position as nitya-siddha, just like a person who is dreaming wakes up on his own bed. Actually, he is always on his own bed, even in the dream. Similarly, we are always in Goloka even when we ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are in the material creation.
In this way, Srila Prabhupada gives us the way to understand how we can find ourselves separated from Krsna without really “falling” from Vaikuntha even though it appears we have fallen due to forgetting who we really are. Srila Prabhupada in this way explains in his lectures how the living entities can fall down from their eternal relationship with Krsna without really falling down, this Book how this paradox comes about.
Is the jiva soul always called marginal energy?
Srila Prabhupada - “The answer to your question about the marginal energy is that the jiva soul is always called marginal energy whether he is in the spiritual world or in the material world. There are instances where marginal energy jiva souls have fallen from the spiritual world, just like Jaya and Vijaya. So the potency to fall under the influence of the lower energy is always there. And thus the individual jiva soul is called as Krishna’s marginal energy.” - Letter to Rayarama, December 2, 1968
Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…(In Vaikuntha) so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material”.
Srila Prabhupada – “Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with (This biological body or vessel and the material creation). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971
Srila Prabhupada - “Every living being has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally, That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi-perfection of one’s constitutional position. Bhagavad-Gita as it is, Introduction.
Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone (all marginal living entities) is nitya-siddha (eternally liberated)” Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977
Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977
Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". Germany, June 22, 1974
The jiva-soul is always marginal energy wether devotionally active in Goloka-Vrndavana, in Vaikuntha, or active in restricted vessels within the material creation, dormant in the Body of Maha-Vishnu or further inactive in the Vraja River and the Impersonal Brahmajyoti that are ALL occupied by nitya-baddha souls.
Originally the jiva soul was engaged with Krishna in an original loving selfless relationship as nitya-siddha from which he has fallen however, the fall down was not a physical fall down as their nitya-siddha body but rather was a ‘sub-conscious’ fall down from the ‘awareness’ of their nitya-siddha body which is called the nitya-baddha-jiva
Srila Prabhupada - "We are all originally situated on the platform of Krishna consciousness in our eternal personal relationship of love of Krishna." - Letter of November 17, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - "He is fallen already from Vaikuntha planet. He is fallen in this material world, and he is again trying to make progress." Srimad Bhagavatam lecture of June 15, 1972
Srila Prabhupada - " . . . After all, the living entity falls down from the spiritual world . . . There is possibility . . . even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down--what to speak of this material world." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on July 4, 1974
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