Free will is ALWAYS part of each jiva's constitutional make up.
Without freedom to choose, even to stay in Vaikuntha, there is no meaning to the word jiva tattva or freedom -
Srila Prabhupada - "Krsna comes down and instructs us, "But why you are engaged in this foolish activity? Please come to Me, back to home, back to Godhead.
So originally the spirit soul has got body, so these physical elements are just like a covering, exactly to the size of the hands, legs, everything…The future is to go back to home, back to Godhead…because he is eternally servant of God, so now he has forgotten.
He wants to become master, and the material nature is kicking him, life after life. So one day he'll come to his senses and become again, renovate himself to become servant of God.
Just like when a man becomes a prisoner, he'll be a free man at the end of his term, and within this term he is simply kicked by the police, so that he may not come back again to prison house.
Syamasundara - "But we can't predict that the process of punishment will have permanent effect, can we? Can we predict that? Many prisoners leave the prison, but some come back".
Srila Prabhupada - "No, there is no permanent effect because we have got little independence. There is nothing as permanent. You can misuse your independence at any time".
Syamasundara - "And come back?"
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes. Otherwise there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do this, you can do that. "All right. Whatever you like."
Devotee - "Then he is so many times falling down, again and again, eventually permanently he will come back?"
Srila Prabhupada - "No. There is no question of permanent. Because he has got independence, he can misuse his independence, he can fall down. That's why one man is released from the prison house, that does not mean permanently He can come back again".
Srila Prabhupada - "This is the general law [to not come back]. But if he likes, he can come back. Because otherwise, what is the meaning of independence? Just like one should become fit in the prison house, naturally he should not go again".
He further explains free will to leave Vaikuntha in the following conversation also-
Srila Prabhupada - "There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is".
Paramahamsa - "If we want?"
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes".
Paramahamsa - "So we can come to the spiritual world and return?"
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes".
Paramahamsa - "Fall down?"
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice," "Yes," Krishna says, "yes, you go". Just like nobody is interested in Krishna consciousness, do you think everyone is interested? They want to enjoy this material world.
Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. Krishna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this.
Just like some of our students, Krishna conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped.
Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, come on, we have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here." He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. Krishna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare, nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare (Prema-vivarta).
The police is there, just like the police car was there. We have nothing to do with it. But if you do anything criminal, immediately you will be arrested, under police custody.
The maya may be there, but maya captures him who is not a devotee of Krishna". (Morning Walk, At Cheviot Hills Golf Course, May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)
đˇ Hare KášášŁáša đˇ
ReplyDeleteOften it is falsely stated by nonscholarly devotees that
ReplyDelete1) other acharyas did not teach we are eternally capable of falldown
2) His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta's teaching was only a
" preaching tactic "
These are fallacious ideas.
1) Previous acharyas HAVE taught this.
They have used terms such as " reversing our decision " ( Srila Bhaktisiddhanta ) and " foolishly choosing to submit to Maya " ( Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur )
2) In the Bhagavad gita Krsna states that once achieving Vaikuntha we do not return to the material world. In the above exchange published here His Divine Grace had the opportunity to address that concern.
He states " That is the general rule "
[ no further return ] but he continues to explain that without the " ability " to choose Maya the meaning of free will is lost.
It is up to us to utilize our intelligence in order to understand Vaisnava philosophy.
It is a material consideration we constantly make desiring material permanence of wealth,knowledge, fame, etc applied to the spiritual realm that misleads us.
We desire to be protected and Krsna certainly offers that--sarva dharman parityajya--but His protection is conditional.
The condition is surrender. We are capable of not surrendering or withdrawing surrender. Otherwise surrender itself loses its meaning.
--Mayesa dasa ACBSP
Greatest of devotees are those who prefer to return to the material world to save as many as possible the fallen souls☺☺!!!
ReplyDeleteYes Krishna in Bhagavad Gita also makes the promise that once reaching Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavan, one will never again fall down to the material creation, and Krishna will always keeps that promise, however -
ReplyDeleteThis is Krishna's promise "if you choose to accept it", the fact is, you also have a say too, it is not just all up to Krishna, there is ALWAYS reciprication, love is always a two way street.
This is because YOU have the free will also to accept or reject that promise by Krishna in Bhagavad Gita. You CAN reject it if you want - there is ALWAYS choice.
Yes, Krishna IS saying you do not have to fall down once in Vaikuntha, this is what Prabhupada is also saying.
However Prabhupada adds, "you can violate if you choose, Krishna does not force you to accept His promise"
Prabhupada's point is, it is also YOUR choice to accept that promise too, Krishna NEVER forces one to stay or forces one to love Him, He always allows free will and that is why nothing is fixed not even in Vaikuntha.
YOU also have a choice in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavan to stay or go, think about it, if you loose that free will to leave then how can their be genuine love, that must be ALWAYS voluntary.
So Prabhupada tells us even in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavan, if we want, we can leave.
Prabhupada is very clear about this, we can also choose to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavan if we want, that free will is NEVER taken from us.
But sadly neophyte devotees, sannyasis and immature Gurus from other Sanga's cannot understand this truth that "free will and choice" is part of the eternal make up and nature of every jiva soul.
Devotee – “In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come here, why are we here?” Why didn’t Krishna save us from coming to this material world?”
ReplyDeleteSrila Prabhupada - “Because that means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.)
I chose to accept Prabhupada's excellent understanding in his above comments.
ReplyDeleteAnd that is there is no material cause for fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavan into maya because maya does not exist in Vaikuntha.
However, what DOES eternal exists within the jivatma's constitution in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavan, is free will and the ability to choose.
And no amount of Krishna prema could ever squash or suppress the jiva's individuality, sense of independent self.
The fact is to make love real, these qualities of the jivatma are needed so the individual jiva can reciprocate with Krishna to make all loving exchanges a real emotion between two individuals.
It is NEVER a one sided one way street, love is always between two, it is never one.
We do not become mindless drones eternally controlled by Krishna prema in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavan, ultimately even under the most intense loving emotional, there is ALWAYS the individual choice and free will to walk away.
And without that "choice," even with Krishna prema, there is no question of genuine love because love is never a one way street, it is only real when it is a reciprication between two individuals.
It is foolish and total nonsense to think Krishna prema renders the entire meaning of individuality and the ability to choose obsolete.
One should understand that part of "real love, prema or service" is also being able to walk away from that loving attachment at anytime if one wants.
Being an individual jiva soul allows one to do that.
The ability to choose "this side or that side" is what makes loving emotions real.
This is because it is also YOUR choice to love Krishna too and not just Him dominating over you like one controls a puppet on strings.
Therefore it is not ONLY Krishna who controls that loving emotion by overruling your individuality and sense of self by choosing for you.
No! That kind of dominate so called love or prema over an individual jiva is Mayavadi impersonalism!
Therefore to say one can NEVER choose to fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavan is nonsense.
Although Prabhupada did say that only 10% of jiva-souls choose to fall down, the rest are good souls, they never CHOOSE to fall down because they CHOOSE to say in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavan.
You see, it is the the jivatma's desire too, a reciprication between Krishna and the jiva.
We are not mindless drones programmed just to love Krishna, no, the fact is we are individual jiva's that "CHOSE to love Krishna", that is what makes love real.
Devotee – “Krishna did not want us to come here, why are we here?” Why didn’t Krishna save us from coming to this material world?”
ReplyDeleteSrila Prabhupada - “Because that means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.)
The fact is to make love real, the jivatma's must be able to choose how to reciprocate with Krishna to make all loving exchanges a real emotion between two individuals.
It is NEVER a one sided one way street, love is always between two, it is never one.
We do not become mindless drones eternally controlled by Krishna prema in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavan, ultimately even under the most intense loving emotional, there is ALWAYS individual choices due to free will.
And without that "choice," even with Krishna prema, there is no question of genuine love because love is never a one way street.
Love is only real when it is a reciprication between two individuals.
It is foolish and total nonsense to think Krishna prema renders the entire meaning of individuality and the ability to choose obsolete when one enters Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavan.
One should understand that part of "real love, prema or service" is also being able to walk away from that loving attachment at anytime if one chooses to do so.
Being an independent individual jiva soul allows one to do that.
The ability to choose "this side or that side" is what makes loving emotions real.
This is because it is also YOUR choice to love Krishna too and not just Him dominating over you like one controls a puppet on strings.
Therefore it is not ONLY Krishna who controls that loving emotion by overruling your individuality and sense of self by choosing for you.
No! That kind of dominate so called love or prema over an individual jiva is Mayavadi impersonalism!
Therefore to say one can NEVER choose to fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavan is nonsense.
Although Prabhupada did say that only 10% of jiva-souls choose to fall down, the rest are good souls, they never CHOOSE to fall down because they CHOOSE to say in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavan.
You see, it is the the jivatma's desire too, a reciprication between Krishna and the jiva.
We are not mindless drones programmed just to love Krishna, no, the fact is we are all unique jiva's who have a sense of individual self that no other jivatma is like, and and can give their own unique love in one's own special personal way in "CHOOSING to love Krishna".
Therefore ONLY reciprocation between Krishna and the jivatma is what makes love (Krishna prema) real.
We the jiva tattvas, are all expansions of Krishna but are endowed with individuality and experience an independent personal sense of self that is separate from Krishna, He allows this to give us the free will to experience love and be responsible for our actions.
ReplyDeleteThis however does not means all jiva-tattva's are independent from Krishna's control of all things, that is not possible. At all time the jiva tattva is always dependent on Krishna or His expansions even as independent individuals.
So the jiva tattva always remains an independent individual living entity that depends on Krishna and His expansions in both the Spiritual Worlds and material worlds.
So even though the jiva-tattva is an expansion of Krishna, the jiva-tattva is NOT one with Krishna.
On the other hand, the loving expressions between Krishna and all His Vishnu-tattva (93% of Krishna's qualities) and Vishnu-sakti-tattva (also 93% of Krishna's qualities) expansions are very different from the individual jiva-tattva (78% of Krishna's qualities) because they ARE Krishna, they are one with Krishna (the individual jiva tattva is not one with Krishna).
This is because all Vishnu-tattvas (Radharani, Balarama, Maha Vishnu etc) and Vishnu-sakti-tattvas (who are many gopis, gopas and other personalities in the Spiritual World) ARE Krishna Himself playing the part of someone else just like in a play.
Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the manifestation of Radha and Krishna as one where both experience each other's love for each other.
Krishna, Radharani and Lord Caitanya are all the ONE personality.
This subject can be difficult to comprehend, especially by those who wrongly believe that once they enter Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavan, they can never again fall down to the material world.
Because we have free will there is always the possibility of fall down, therefore at all times "we must use our free will correctly" and choose to perpetually serve Krishna at ALL times.
This is the only way that will protect us from fall down.
Devotee – “Krishna did not want us to come here, so why are we here?” Why didn’t Krishna save us from coming to this material world?”
Srila Prabhupada - “Because that means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.)
The Spiritual World is full of unlimited variety therefore Krishna only wants those in His circle who "choose" to be there and gives the best of who they are as an independent thinking individual person, who has their own unique abilities and talents they can offer to Krishna.
ReplyDeleteGoloka Vrindavana, or the Kingdom of God is where the jiva tattva's natural independent identity and personal individual abilities are at their full potential of self expression. All jiva tattva's have individuality and a unique personal sense of self as part and parcel of their eternal constitution.
These are the qualities of each jiva tattva soul that enable them to serve Krishna in their own unique personal way exclusive to them. Surrender to Krishna NEVER extinguishes one's personal sense of self as an independent person with free will and individual identity.
Real love is ALWAYS reciprocal, it is NEVER a one way street where surrender to Krishna takes away one's sense of self and individuality that only makes one no better than a dead stone.
The "highest independence" is therefore using your free will to "CHOOSE" to be fully dependent on Krishna and do everything to please Krishna.
However, free will also means having the freedom to EVEN choose to stay in Vaikuntha. The is this MUST also be the jivas choice too in reciprocation with Krishna because without the jiva's free will to also choose, there can be no real love.
Srila Prabhupada has said not even Krishna can force you to love Him or surrender unto Him.
LOVE or service is based on free will and then reciprocation.