Monday, August 9, 2021

 Srila Prabhupada - ''Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. (Letter to: Revatinandana, Los Angeles 13 June, 1970) 

Srila Prabhupada - ''When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness'' (Letter to: Revatinandana, Los Angeles 13 June, 1970)

Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krishna, we have a perfect relationship with Krishna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we’re already serving Krishna?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.”

HERE HERE


So is there a place in the Spiritual World from where the jiva soul (marginal living entity) can never fall down from?

No, because staying in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana is based on "free will" and some souls do choose to leave.

Actually there is no place in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana where the jiva soul can never fall down from because Krishna NEVER forces the jiva soul to stay in His Personal association.

To be with Krishna is always voluntary.

It is simply based on the jiva soul's "free will" in cooperation with Krishna.

Therefore staying or leaving Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana is the jiva soul's decision also, it is the jiva soul's choice, also in cooperation with Krishna, in a two-way relationship and NOT just Krishna in a one way dictatorship.

Even Krishna's promise that claims the jiva soul will never again return to the material creation, once in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana, is only true if the jiva souls agree to accept that promise and voluntarily choose to stay.

And yes, there are a minority of jiva souls who reject Krishna's promise and DO again choose to return to the material creation.

This is because the jiva souls are not dead mindless stone, they have their free will too.

The jiva souls MUST have free will to be the contributing PERSON they eternally are.

However, most souls "choose" to never again fall down (more than 90%) but less than 10% DO AGAIN choose to fall down by ignoring Krishna's promise that they will never again fall down Prabhupada has explained.

Having "free will" is part and parcel of the individual make up of all marginal living entities (jiva souls) that is included in their eternal constitution

This means it is also the jiva soul's choice to remain or the leave the Spiritual realm based on their choice.

And this choice to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana has nothing to do with Maya, it is simply free will.

Maya or the material energy cannot influence the jiva soul's in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana because Maya (material energy) does NOT exist there.

The only cause of fall down from the Spiritual Worlds is "free will"

As explained above, most (over 90%) choose NOT to leave Krishna Prabhupada has told us however, that also may change over eternity. 

This choice to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana is possible because love is a "two-way" street meaning one can accept or reject Krishna if they choose to do so otherwise voluntary loving exchanges and personal contributions offered to Krishna in their relationship with Him can NEVER exist.

If Krishna forced you to love Him in a "one way" dictatorship, then how can such impersonal forced surrender be out of genuine  love if the jiva souls are denied their own freedom of choice in the Kingdom of God?

Loving relationships can only work in a "two way" exchange based on reciprocation and loving selfless service with two involved sharing loving interchanges.

In this way, the Kingdom of God is NEVER a domineering "one way" bullying dictatorship run by Krishna. 

No! Krishna is not like that at all.

The fact is, such a "one way" impersonal master/servant dictatorship is a loveless relationship of convÌenience that only destroy one's real freedom of expression (free will), sense of individual self of having one's own unique personality seperate from Krishna's Personality that can choose how to serve Krishna in their own unique way, or even reject Krishna if one chooses.

The freedom to do good or bad MUST be there if love is to truly exist, expand and flourish.

In other words there must also be the "free will" to reject Krishna too otherwise there is no meaning to having loving exchanges with Krishna.

Remaining in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana eternally is based on the marginal living entities (jiva soul's) unique personality who chooses to make their own offerings  based on their free will.

This means all jiva souls can reject Krishna if they want or can choose in Goloka Vrindavana or Vaikuntha, to voluntary offer the very best of their personal unique  character.

Sadly a small minority DO choose to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavan (less than 10% Prabhupada has explained above)

Sadly some Sangas (religious cults) claim no one can ever fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana once there.

However, this is NOT true, the fact is the jiva soul CAN leave the Spiritual World any time they want to because they eternally have "free will".

To say those in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana will "never ever fall down from Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana IS true, but ONLY for those who CHOOSE NOT to fall down. 

In other words, if the jiva souls want stay or leave, they certainly can do both because of their free will.

To make the nonsense blanket comment that "not even the leaves fall down from Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana" is ignorance  and does not take into consideration the "free will" of the jiva-tattva souls . 

As said above, Maya has nothing to do with leaving Krishna's Abode because there is no material energy (Maya) in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana.

The cause of fall down is free will.

But they should remember what Prabhupada said, that over 90% of jiva souls have NEVER entered the material creation, although even that can change over time because of free will.

To leave Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana means automatically the jiva soul ends up in the material creation.

Krishna does not interfere with that choice, even though Krishna has promised there is no return to the material creation once in the Spiritual Worlds.

The fact is, there IS return if the jiva souls want to return as Prabhupada explains here-

Acyutananda – “In the Bhagavad Gita it says, “Once coming to the Spiritual World, he never returns, so he can return?”

Srila Prabhupada – “If he likes he can return”.

Guru-kripa – “How is it that one can become envious of Krishna?”

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God. God has got full independence, but you have got independence too, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, so if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976)

Returning home back to Godhead is not necessarily permanent Prabhupada explains, that choice to stay or go is also the jiva souls choice too, it is not just a one way decision that Krishna makes, no, real loving exchanges can NEVER exist without the jiva souls have their choices too. 

For loving devotion to truly exist with the marginal living entity, the jiva-soul MUST have the right to choose to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana anytime they want, therefore returning there is not necessarily permanent Prabhupada explains here.

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence therefore you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God you have got independence, proportionately, therefore if he likes he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We CAN misuse that. (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976)

Syamasundara - "But can we predict returning back home back to Godhead will be permanent? Can we predict that? Just like many prisoners leave the prison, however some do come back?''

Srila Prabhupada - "No, there is no permanent effect because we have got little independence. There is nothing permanent because you can misuse your independence at any time".

Syamasundara - "And some come back?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes. Otherwise there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do this, you can do that. "All right. Whatever you like."

Devotee - "Then he is so many times falling down, again and again, so will he eventually permanently come back?"

Srila Prabhupada - "He has got independence, therefore there is always the possibility he can misuse his independence, he CAN fall down. That's why when a man is released from the prison house, that does not mean permanently because he can come back again, the general law is NOT to come back, but if he likes, he can come back, otherwise what is the meaning of independence? Just like one becomes free from the prison house, naturally he should not go there again". (Discussions with Syamasundara > Henri Bergson)

For those who believe no one can ever fall down from Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana have NOT understood these clear points explained by Srila Prabhupada.

Many also do not understand the variety of living entities in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana, and that it is only a very small minority of jiva-tattva souls who do choose to leave.

The majority of jiva souls (over 90%) do not even know the material creation exists, so there is no temptation from the material energy in anyway, there is only their free will to leave.

Only then once the rebellious jiva souls have chosen to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana, do they learn of the existence of the material creation.

Devotee - “Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back”.

Srila Prabhupada - “No, there is possibility, but he does not come if he is intelligent. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again. So those who are going back to Godhead, they must become intelligent." (Discussions with Syamasundara Dasa).

Srila Prabhupada has also explained there will ALWAYS be a very small minority of only the jiva tattva souls, less than 10% who can misuse their free will and "choose" to leave if they want.

In Bhagavad Gita As It Is Krishna promises the jiva-souls they will NEVER fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana to the material creation, and yes, Krishna will always keeps His promise, but Krishna's promise of NEVER falling down to the material creation once there, is from Krishna's point of view, so does the jiva soul also have to accept His promise as final?

In other words, does this mean the jiva-souls have no choice and can NEVER "choose" to leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana even if they want to leave?

There are many different types of personalities or inhabitants of Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana too who are NOT  jiva-tattva souls, and who therefore NEVER fall down because they are direct expansions of Krishna's Personality, they ARE Krishna playing another role in His own pastimes. 

Such as the Vishnu-tattva and Sakti-Vishnu-tattva Personalities who ARE Krishna playing another role in His pastimes.

Therefore, they NEVER fall down because they ARE Krishna's Personality, unlike the jiva souls (marginal living entity) who have their own independent personality. 

The Vishnu tattvas and Sakti-Vishnu-tattvas personalities are also simultaneously  many of Krishna's eternal associates where Krishna experiencing Himself in unlimited different other Personalities.

Just like the Pancha-tattva Personalities where only one out of the five is jiva-tattva, all the rest are different direct expansions of Krishna's Personality who are either Vishnu-tattva or Sakti-Vishnu-tattva.

And for over 90% of the jiva-tattva-souls, who also ALWAYS have the ability to choose as an independent person to stay or leave, mostly NEVER fall down or leave either either because they NEVER "choose" to misuse their free will.

Although any jiva soul in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana can leave if they want too later because they ALWAYS have the free will to do so. 

Technically no jiva soul's position is permanent EVEN in the Spiritual World's of Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana because they all have free will eternally.

Syamasundara - "Is returning back home back to Godhead permanent?''

Srila Prabhupada - "No, nothing is permanent because you can misuse your independence at any time".

Syamasundara - "And some come back?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes. Otherwise there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do this, you can do that. "All right. Whatever you like."

Devotee - "Then many are falling down, again and again, so will he eventually permanently come back?"

Srila Prabhupada - "He has got independence, therefore there is always the possibility he can misuse his independence, he CAN fall down. Just like one becomes free from the prison house, naturally he should not go there again but soms do return". (Discussions with Syamasundara > Henri Bergson)

Krishna's promise that once reaching Vaikuntha the jiva-soul will never again fall down to the material World, is true for most souls, but not all as Prabhupada explains above.

Those great souls who quote Krishna's promise from Bhagavad Gita ARE right for the majority of jiva-souls, which is more than 90% in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana. 

This is because each jiva-soul has THEIR own free will and independent thinking, this means it is THEIR choice if they stay or leave, and NOT just Krishnas.

In other words, Krishna's promise is NOT binding or with all marginal living entities (jiva souls) because the jiva-souls have the free will to make their own choice.

So why do some jiva souls choose to leave the Spiritual Worlds?

To understand this one must realize that ultimately LOVE is not just a one way street or dictatorship, it is based on reciprocation and loving exhanges between two, not just one.

Therefore we must NOT forget the jiva souĺs have THEIR choices too, even if that choice means rejecting Krishna. 

This is because love is always based on reciprocation, a two way street between two.



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