Everything comes from Krsna the Supreme Personality of Godhead and cause of all causes.
Srila Prabhupada - "All Krsna's expansions, the viṣṇu-tattvas, the jīva-tattvas (jiva-souls) and the śakti-tattvas are different offshoots from the same one Supreme Lord.
The jīva-tattvas (marginal living entities or jiva-souls) are "separated" expansions (yet also eternal) from the viṣṇu-tattvas, and although there are potential differences between them, they are all meant for the transcendental sense gratification of the Supreme Lord.
Some of the jīva-souls however, wanted to lord it over material nature in imitation of the lordship of the Personality of Godhead. Regarding when and why such propensities overcame the pure living entities, it can only be explained that the jīva-tattvas have infinitesimal independence and that due to misuse of this independence some of the living entities have become implicated in the conditions of cosmic creation and are therefore called nitya baddhas, or eternally conditioned souls." (SB, Canto 3 Ch 5 Text 51, Purport)
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When "fall down" of the jiva-soul takes place, it means falling down from a "non-fallen" condition, and that non-fallen condition is with Krsna in Goloka Vrindavana, or with Visnu in the Vaikuntha planets.
Anything that happens outside the spiritual world, like entering the Body of Maha-Visnu, the material creation, the impersonal brahmajyoti the tatastha-sakti conditional state, are ALL already fallen conditions.
As said above, entering the brahman effulgence (impersonal brahmajyoti), is an already "fallen condition" however, the jiva-souls can never eternally remain in that "fallen dormant condition" in the impersonal brahmajyoti.
Eventually they are forced to leave there because the eternal nature of the jiva-souls is to be always "active," not inactive. So, again they take birth in the material world.
Many of those "fallen jiva-souls in the impersonal brahmajyoti," have spent so long inactive there, they forget they originally fell from the spiritual world to the material world, then after suffering there for many life times, try and escape the material world's repeated painful cycle of birth and death, by entering that dormant (inactive) condition in the impersonal brahmajyoti.
Sadly, because they have spent so much vast time in the impersonal brahmajyoti (trillions of years being dormant or inactive), they foolishly believe it is their origin, forgetting they have NOT originated from the impersonal brahmajyoti but had previously fallen down from either the Vaikuntha planets, or Goloka-Vrindavana.
When the temporary Brahmanda material universes come to their end, and are eventually annihilated, the fallen jiva-souls stay dormant (inactive) in the Body of the sleeping Maha-Visnu for 311 trillion 40 billion human years after Brahma dies (who also lives for 311 trillion and 40 billion human years - [his 100 years life expectancy]).
Then eventually another Brahma is born from Garbhodakasayi Visnu deep within the new Brahmanda coming from the breathing and skin pores of Mahā-Viṣṇu.
The individual jiva-souls can stay for an almost eternity in the temporary decaying material universes in a cycle of repeated birth and death, and repeated cosmic annihilation and creation - if they choose.
When Lord Brahma dies after 100 of his years, which is 311 trillion and 40 billion human years, there is an equal period of his life span of 311 trillion, 40 billion years where nothing living exists in this material universe, all life (the jiva-souls) in the material universe remain dormant withdrawn for that time into the Body of Karanadakashayi Visnu (Maha-Visnu) until the next Brahmanda creation.
All jiva-souls merge temporarily as "individual dormant units (sparks)" into the Body of Karanadakashayi Visnu (Maha-Visnu) and remain that way until the next creation of Brahmandas manifest from Maha-Visnu's spiritual Body.
All material bodily vessels the visiting jiva-souls receive while in the material world, are "hired" from Maha-Visnu from His unlimited variety of dreams which includes unlimited Brahmanda universes.
All material bodily vessels are created via His dreams whom the visiting jiva-souls from Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana "borrow" from Him. Therefore, in the next new "Brahmanda creation" coming from Maha-Visnu, all the dormant jiva-souls awaken and continue on where they left off in the previous material creation inside the Brahmanda that ended 311 trillion 40 billion human years previously.
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Therefore, marginal living entities (jiva-souls) do NOT originate from tatastha-sakti, the impersonal brahmajyoti or the Body of Maha-Visnu.
Being “generated” from the "marginal plane" does NOT mean the jiva-souls “originated” from some imaginary place in the Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky called tatastha-sakti.
The jiva-souls and Kṛṣṇa have ALWAYS existed, they were never created, this means they have no origin or beginning point to their existence because they have existed for infinity as Bhagavad Gita As It Is above confirms.
Tatastha-sakti therefore describes the none Krsna conscious condition of the fallen jiva-souls in both material existence and the impersonal brahmajyoti.
The word tatastha-sakti refers to the marginal living entities (jiva-souls) in their "fallen conditional state" in both the material creation and when dormant in the (impersonal) Brahmajyoti.
Srila Prabhupada - "So this temporary material world is the taṭastha (materially conditioned) characteristics, and the spiritual world is the permanent (personal) characteristics. So our effort is to get out of this taṭastha (materially conditioned) characteristics and enter the permanent (personal) characteristics. That is called spiritual elevation." (Lecture CC Madhya-lila 20.354-358, New York City, Dec 28, 1966)
Srila Prabhupada - "Because the individual soul is apt to fall down sometimes under the clutches of māyā, it is called taṭastha-śakti." (Lecture BG, Ch 7 Text 4-5 Bombay, March 30, 1971)
Revatīnandana dasa - "Srila Prabhupāda you very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the jiva-soul then goes into the brahmajyoti, he is considered still fallen. Still fallen. Does that means the whole brahmajyoti is composed of fallen souls? You see my question? If I go there, I'm a jīva-soul, and I go to the brahmajyoti I'm still fallen."
Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes."
Revatīnandana dasa - "That means all jīva-souls there in the impersonal Brahman (Brahmajyoti) are also fallen souls?"
Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes, existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition (Goloka-Vrindavana and Vaikuntha). The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness.'' (Letter to Revatinandana, LA 13 June, 1970 and 1971 London)
The full potential and original feature (bodily form) of all eternal marginal living entities (jiva-souls), is a "two-arm form" like Krsna's Body. The jiva-souls were NEVER created, they are beginningless and endless like Krsna is.
Srila Prabhupada - "God is also human form. "Man is made after the shape of God." So Kṛṣṇa is also like human form, two hands, two legs." The human form is also the full manifestation of the jiva-soul." (Melb, Australia May 20, 1975)
Srila Prabhupada - "The spirit soul is NOT formless; it has got form, the spirit soul always has form and is expressed as hands, legs, heads, everything. But with our material eyes at the present, our gross eyes, we cannot see these facts; therefore we foolishly believe the jiva-souls have no form." (Lecture BG, Ch 2 Text 14, Mexico, Feb 14, 1975)
Devotee - "What is the form of the spiritual body. If the spirit soul is non-material, what is the form?"
Srila Prabhupāda - "There is form, just like this material body is compared with the dress. Now, just like in your present material form you have got hand; therefore your coat has got hand. You have got legs; therefore your pant has got legs. Therefore it is to be assumed that the spirit soul always has got form, and is expressed as hands, legs, heads, everything. The spirit soul is not formless; it has got form. But with our material eyes at the present, gross eyes, we cannot find it; therefore we say and foolishly believe it has no form." (Lecture BG, Ch 2 Text 14, Mexico, Feb 14, 1975)
As said above, the original feature of the marginal living entities (jiva-souls) is like Krsna's Bodily form, they do NOT originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or tatastha-sakti as some foolishly believe.
Devotee – "Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Yes, human form. God is also human form. "Man is made after the shape of God." I think there is in the Bible. Is it not? So God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs."
Hari-sauri – "How do we understand, then, that there are peacocks and flowers and trees in the spiritual world? Are these not eternal forms?"
Srila Prabhupada – "[describing material form first] Yes, they are more covered, just like if you cover your body with blanket, the hands and legs are invisible. But you are not the blanket. So the trees and plants, they are more covered. They are not in full manifestation. The human form is the full manifestation of the soul."
Hari-sauri - "Are they covered in the spiritual world?"
Srila Prabhupada - "Not in the spiritual world, there that is voluntary. Some devotee wants to serve Krsna as flower; they become flower there. If I want to be a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Krsna and become flower, voluntarily, and can change from flower to human body if one desires. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Krsna as cow, he serves Krsna as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. It is inconceivable, yet a fact." (SB, Canto 6 Ch 1 Text 1-4, Melb, May 20, 1975)
Devotee - "If jiva-soul is non-material, so what is the form?
Srila Prabhupāda - "There is form, just like this body is compared with the dress. Now, just like in your present material form you have got hand; therefore your coat has got hand. If you have got... You have got leg; therefore your pant has got leg. Therefore it is to be assumed that the spirit soul has got form, and it has developed into hands, legs, heads, everything. It is not formless; it has got form. But with our material eyes at the present, gross eyes, we cannot find it; therefore we say it has no form." (Lecture BG, Ch 2 Text 14, Mexico , Feb 14, 1975)
Devotee - "Śrīla Prabhupāda, you state that spirit soul has form."
Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes."
Devotee - "Otherwise, how is the material body grown to accommodate the spirit soul? Just like a shirt has no form, but when it's put on the body, it takes the shapes of the body. Does that mean that the spirit soul has the shape of the body that is accommodating it?"
Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes, but it has a form in its full potential in the spiritual sky, in the material world only is the soul "one ten-thousandth part" of the tip of the hair.
You have got body, shape, very minute shape. That we cannot see, we cannot measure. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, anumeyam, what is that? You cannot measure. What is that word used? Aprameyam. Aprameyam. You cannot measure.
But it has a form. How? What is the length and breadth of that form, that is not in your power. In your power, but not materially. That is... If you have got spiritual power, then you can measure it. And that measurement is also given in the śāstra.
What is that? One ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. Hair is a very small point. And divide it into ten thousand parts. That one part is the measure, magnitude of the soul.
keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya
śatadhā kalpitasya ca
jīva-bhāgaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ
sa cānantyāya kalpate
(CC Madhya 19.140)
The marginal living entities (jiva-souls) do NOT originate from tatastha-sakti, the impersonal brahmajyoti or the Body of Maha-Visnu.
Being “generated” from the "marginal plane" does NOT mean the jiva-souls “originated” from some imaginary place in the Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky called tatastha-sakti.
The jiva-souls and Kṛṣṇa have ALWAYS existed, they were never created, this means they have no origin or beginning point to their existence because they have existed for infinity as Bhagavad Gita As It Is confirms.
Tatastha-sakti therefore describes the none Krsna conscious condition of the fallen jiva-souls in both material existence and the impersonal brahmajyoti.
The word tatastha-sakti refers to the marginal living entities (jiva-souls) in their "fallen conditional state" in both the material creation and when dormant in the (impersonal) Brahmajyoti.
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Srila Prabhupāda - "This material body we are in is existing on the spiritual body. Just like your shirt. The shirt is existing on your actual hand. The shirt has got a hand because you have got hand. So matter is impersonal. But because the superior prakṛti, jīva, he is person, therefore the matter appears like a person. Because I have got hands and legs, therefore this cloth has got hands and legs. Otherwise the cloth has no hands and legs; it is impersonal.
In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni. This body is just like dress. Just like your coat has got hand, your pant has got leg, but either the pant or coat has no leg, no hand. So, because you have got leg and hand, the coat has got leg and hand. Everyone can understand this. It is very easy. So the original (and eternally), the spirit soul has got form. Therefore the cloth has been cut into form. It is very easy to understand. Otherwise how you get the form? And in this form the spirit soul is trying to enjoy this material world. But it is not puruṣa. It cannot enjoy. That is false. That is illusion." (Lecture SB, Canto 3 Ch 26 Text 3, Bombay, Dec 15, 1974)
Srila Prabhupāda - "Matter (material energy) has no form but the jiva-soul has got form. Though matter is covering the actual form of the jiva-soul, the matter then appears to have form. Just like the original cloth has no form, but when the tailor cuts the cloth according to the body of the person, then the shirt and coat takes a form.
The matter itself has no form. When you take clay, it has no form, but if you make it like a doll, like a man or woman, then it has a form. When you change the clay, and you manufacture a fort, then the fort has form. So, form and formlessness is of the matter, but in the spiritual world everything has got form. The spirit soul has got form. God has got form. This is the truth.
In the material world any form-man or beast or anyone—in the outward, external covering is matter, but within the matter there is the soul. The soul has form and God has form. That is real form. And the material form is simply shirting and coating over the spiritual body.
The form of the body takes place on account of the form of the spirit. This is very nice example. The cloth has no form, but when it is cut according to the form of the gentleman, it takes a form. Similarly, matter has no form. When it is coated on the spiritual form of the soul, it takes the form. This is very easy to understand."(Philosophy Discussion with Srila Prabhupāda on Thomas Aquinas)
Srila Prabhupāda - "The living entity has got hands, legs, everything, spiritual. Just like my, I have got my body, and this body's covered by this shirt, and because I have got this hand, the shirt has got hand. Otherwise where from this hand comes Unless the spirit soul has got hands and legs, how we have got these material hands and legs? Therefore it is, the conclusion is that spirit soul has form.
As Kṛṣṇa has got form, sac cid ānanda vigraha (Bs. 5.1), similarly spirit soul, jīvātmā or jiva-soul, being part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, has also got form.
Because we get information from the Bhagavad-gītā, that this body, material body is, is like a dress. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāny yathā vihāya. As we give up old dress, garment, similarly, when this body becomes useless, we give up this body and accept another new body. Navāni ghṛṇāti." (The Nectar of Devotion, Vrndavana, Oct 26, 1972)
As said above, the word tatastha-sakti refers to the marginal living entities (jiva-souls) in their fallen conditioned state in both the material creation, and when dormant in the impersonal brahmajyoti.
It is incorrect to believe the jiva-souls originate from tatastha-sakti (a conditioned fallen state) Srila Prabhupada has explained above.
The marginal living entities (jiva-souls) sometimes fall down to the material creation from Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana which are their original homes.
And then after being frustrated in a material body trapped in the cycle of birth and death in the material creation, they attempt to find escape by entering the impersonal (inactive or dormant) Brahmajyoti.
The fact is, the jiva-souls do NOT originate from the Impersonal Brahman (Brahmajyoti), the Body of Maha-Visnu or tatastha-sakti (all are fallen conditioned designation outside the spiritual world) as some believe.
ALL jiva-souls (marginal living entities) are eternal and come to the material world from the perpetual Vaikuntha planets and Goloka Vrindavana.
Srila Prabhupada - ''Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence (impersonal Brahmajyoti) are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness [Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana]." (Letter to Revatinandana, LA 13 June, 1970)
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No, it is impersonalist nonsense to believe the jiva-souls are formless, the jiva-souls are ALWAYS a PERSON as a spiritual bodily individual FORM eternally.
The mayavadis and impersonalist are WRONG, the jiva-souls have ALWAYS been PERSONS as a spiritual bodily form (not material) who are beginningless and endless.
The jiva-souls do NOT develop a bodily form as mayavadis claim because they are already an eternally spiritual bodily form and Person since infinity.
Srila Prabhupada - "God is also human form. "Man is made after the shape of God." So Kṛṣṇa is also like human form, two hands, two legs." The human form is also the full manifestation of the jiva-soul." (Melb, Australia May 20, 1975)
Srila Prabhupada - "The spirit soul is NOT formless; it has got form, the spirit soul always has form and is expressed as hands, legs, heads, everything. But with our material eyes at the present, our gross eyes, we cannot see these facts; therefore we foolishly believe the jiva-souls have no form." (Lecture BG, Ch 2 Text 14, Mexico, Feb 14, 1975)
Devotee - "What is the form of the spiritual body. If the spirit soul is non-material, what is the form?"
Srila Prabhupāda - "There is form, just like this material body is compared with the dress. Now, just like in your present material form you have got hand; therefore your coat has got hand. You have got legs; therefore your pant has got legs. Therefore it is to be assumed that the spirit soul always has got form, and is expressed as hands, legs, heads, everything. The spirit soul is not formless; it has got form. But with our material eyes at the present, gross eyes, we cannot find it; therefore we say and foolishly believe it has no form." (Lecture BG, Ch 2 Text 14, Mexico, Feb 14, 1975)
Devotee – "Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Yes, human form. God is also human form. "Man is made after the shape of God." I think there is in the Bible. Is it not? So God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs."
Hari-sauri – "How do we understand, then, that there are peacocks and flowers and trees in the spiritual world? Are these not eternal forms?"
Srila Prabhupada – "[describing material form first] Yes, they are more covered, just like if you cover your body with blanket, the hands and legs are invisible. But you are not the blanket. So the trees and plants, they are more covered. They are not in full manifestation. The human form is the full manifestation of the soul."
Hari-sauri - "Are they covered in the spiritual world?"
Srila Prabhupada - "Not in the spiritual world, there that is voluntary. Some devotee wants to serve Krsna as flower; they become flower there. If I want to be a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Krsna and become flower, voluntarily, and can change from flower to human body if one desires. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Krsna as cow, he serves Krsna as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. It is inconceivable, yet a fact." (SB, Canto 6 Ch 1 Text 1-4, Melb, May 20, 1975)
Devotee - "If jiva-soul is non-material, so what is the form?
Srila Prabhupāda - "There is form, just like this body is compared with the dress. Now, just like in your present material form you have got hand; therefore your coat has got hand. If you have got... You have got leg; therefore your pant has got leg. Therefore it is to be assumed that the spirit soul has got form, and it has developed into hands, legs, heads, everything. It is not formless; it has got form. But with our material eyes at the present, gross eyes, we cannot find it; therefore we say it has no form." (Lecture BG, Ch 2 Text 14, Mexico , Feb 14, 1975)
Devotee - "Śrīla Prabhupāda, you state that spirit soul has form."
Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes."
Devotee - "Otherwise, how is the material body grown to accommodate the spirit soul? Just like a shirt has no form, but when it's put on the body, it takes the shapes of the body. Does that mean that the spirit soul has the shape of the body that is accommodating it?"
Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes, but it has a form in its full potential in the spiritual sky, in the material world only is the soul "one ten-thousandth part" of the tip of the hair.
You have got body, shape, very minute shape. That we cannot see, we cannot measure. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, anumeyam, what is that? You cannot measure. What is that word used? Aprameyam. Aprameyam. You cannot measure.
But it has a form. How? What is the length and breadth of that form, that is not in your power. In your power, but not materially. That is... If you have got spiritual power, then you can measure it. And that measurement is also given in the śāstra.
What is that? One ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. Hair is a very small point. And divide it into ten thousand parts. That one part is the measure, magnitude of the soul.
Everything is there. But you have no eyes to see, how to see one ten-thousandth portion of the top of the hair. You cannot see even the original top of the hair. Everything is there. We must have eyes." (Lecture SB, Canto 1 Ch 16 Text 24, Hawaii, Jan 20, 1974)
Srila Prabhupāda - "This material body we are in is existing on the spiritual body. Just like your shirt. The shirt is existing on your actual hand. The shirt has got a hand because you have got hand.
So matter is impersonal. But because the superior prakṛti, jīva, he is person, therefore the matter appears like a person. Because I have got hands and legs, therefore this cloth has got hands and legs. Otherwise the cloth has no hands and legs; it is impersonal.
In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni. This body is just like dress. Just like your coat has got hand, your pant has got leg, but either the pant or coat has no leg, no hand. So, because you have got leg and hand, the coat has got leg and hand. Everyone can understand this. It is very easy.
So the original (and eternally), the spirit soul has got form.
Therefore the cloth has been cut into form. It is very easy to understand. Otherwise how you get the form?
And in this form the spirit soul is trying to enjoy this material world. But it is not puruṣa. It cannot enjoy. That is false. That is illusion." (Lecture SB, Canto 3 Ch 26 Text 3, Bombay, Dec 15, 1974)
Srila Prabhupāda - Matter (material energy) has no form but the jiva-soul has got form. Though matter is covering the actual form of the jiva-soul, the matter then appears to have form. Just like the original cloth has no form, but when the tailor cuts the cloth according to the body of the person, then the shirt and coat takes a form.
The matter itself has no form. When you take clay, it has no form, but if you make it like a doll, like a man or woman, then it has a form. When you change the clay, and you manufacture a fort, then the fort has form. So, form and formlessness is of the matter, but in the spiritual world everything has got form. The spirit soul has got form. God has got form. This is the truth.
In the material world any form-man or beast or anyone—in the outward, external covering is matter, but within the matter there is the soul. The soul has form and God has form. That is real form. And the material form is simply shirting and coating over the spiritual body.
The form of the body takes place on account of the form of the spirit. This is very nice example. The cloth has no form, but when it is cut according to the form of the gentleman, it takes a form. Similarly, matter has no form. When it is coated on the spiritual form of the soul, it takes the form. This is very easy to understand." (Philosophy Discussion with Srila Prabhupāda on Thomas Aquinas)
Srila Prabhupāda - "The living entity has got hands, legs, everything, spiritual. Just like my, I have got my body, and this body's covered by this shirt, and because I have got this hand, the shirt has got hand.
Otherwise where from this hand comes Unless the spirit soul has got hands and legs, how we have got these material hands and legs?
Therefore it is, the conclusion is that spirit soul has form. As Kṛṣṇa has got form, sac cid ānanda vigraha (Bs. 5.1), similarly spirit soul, jīvātmā or jiva-soul, being part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, has got form.
So anyway, because we get information from the Bhagavad-gītā, that this body, material body is, is like a dress. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāny yathā vihāya.
As we give up old dress, garment, similarly, when this body becomes useless, we give up this body and accept another new body. Navāni ghṛṇāti." (The Nectar of Devotion, Vrndavana, Oct 26, 1972)
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Srila Prabhupada - "The spirit soul is NOT formless; it has got form, the spirit soul always has form and is expressed as hands, legs, heads, everything. But with our material eyes at the present, our gross eyes, we cannot see these facts; therefore we foolishly believe the jiva-souls have no form." (Lecture BG, Ch 2 Text 14, Mexico, Feb 14, 1975)
Devotee - "What is the form of the spiritual body. If the spirit soul is non-material, what is the form?"
Srila Prabhupāda - "There is form, just like this material body is compared with the dress. Now, just like in your present material form you have got hand; therefore your coat has got hand. You have got legs; therefore your pant has got legs. Therefore it is to be assumed that the spirit soul always has got form, and is expressed as hands, legs, heads, everything. The spirit soul is not formless; it has got form. But with our material eyes at the present, gross eyes, we cannot find it; therefore we say and foolishly believe it has no form." (Lecture BG, Ch 2 Text 14, Mexico, Feb 14, 1975)
As said above, the original feature of the marginal living entities (jiva-souls) is like Krsna's Bodily form, they do NOT originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or tatastha-sakti as some foolishly believe.
Devotee – "Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Yes, human form. God is also human form. "Man is made after the shape of God." I think there is in the Bible. Is it not? So God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs."
Hari-sauri – "How do we understand, then, that there are peacocks and flowers and trees in the spiritual world? Are these not eternal forms?"
Srila Prabhupada – "[describing material form first] Yes, they are more covered, just like if you cover your body with blanket, the hands and legs are invisible. But you are not the blanket. So the trees and plants, they are more covered. They are not in full manifestation. The human form is the full manifestation of the soul."
Hari-sauri - "Are they covered in the spiritual world?"
Srila Prabhupada - "Not in the spiritual world, there that is voluntary. Some devotee wants to serve Krsna as flower; they become flower there. If I want to be a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Krsna and become flower, voluntarily, and can change from flower to human body if one desires. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Krsna as cow, he serves Krsna as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. It is inconceivable, yet a fact." (SB, Canto 6 Ch 1 Text 1-4, Melb, May 20, 1975)
Devotee - "If jiva-soul is nonmaterial, so what is the form?
Srila Prabhupāda - "There is form, just like this body is compared with the dress. Now, just like in your present material form you have got hand; therefore your coat has got hand. If you have got... You have got leg; therefore your pant has got leg. Therefore it is to be assumed that the spirit soul has got form, and it has developed into hands, legs, heads, everything. It is not formless; it has got form. But with our material eyes at the present, gross eyes, we cannot find it; therefore we say it has no form." (Lecture BG, Ch 2 Text 14, Mexico , Feb 14, 1975)
Devotee - "Śrīla Prabhupāda, you state that spirit soul has form."
Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes."
Devotee - "Otherwise, how is the material body grown to accommodate the spirit soul? Just like a shirt has no form, but when it's put on the body, it takes the shapes of the body. Does that mean that the spirit soul has the shape of the body that is accommodating it?"
Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes, you have got body, shape." (SB, Canto 1 Ch 16 Text 24, Hawaii, Jan 20, 1974)
Srila Prabhupāda - "This material body we are in is existing on the spiritual body. Just like your shirt. The shirt is existing on your actual hand. The shirt has got a hand because you have got hand. So matter is impersonal. But because the superior prakṛti, jīva, he is person, therefore the matter appears like a person. Because I have got hands and legs, therefore this cloth has got hands and legs. Otherwise the cloth has no hands and legs; it is impersonal." ((Lecture SB, Canto 3 Ch 26 Text 3, Bombay, Dec 15, 1974)
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Srila Prabhupada - "The original (and eternally), the spirit soul has got form." (SB lecture, Canto 3 Ch 26 Text 3, Bombay, Dec 15, 1974)
Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes, but it has a form in its full potential in the spiritual sky, in the material world only is the soul "one ten-thousandth part" of the tip of the hair.
You have got body, shape, very minute shape. That we cannot see, we cannot measure. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, anumeyam, what is that? You cannot measure. What is that word used? Aprameyam. Aprameyam. You cannot measure.
But it has a form. How? What is the length and breadth of that form, that is not in your power. In your power, but not materially. That is... If you have got spiritual power, then you can measure it. And that measurement is also given in the śāstra. What is that? One ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. Hair is a very small point. And divide it into ten thousand parts. That one part is the measure, magnitude of the soul. (CC Madhya 19.140)
Everything is there. But you have no eyes to see, how to see one ten-thousandth portion of the top of the hair. You cannot see even the original top of the hair. Everything is there. We must have eyes." (Lecture SB, Canto 1 Ch 16 Text 24, Hawaii, Jan 20, 1974)
Srila Prabhupāda - "This material body we are in is existing on the spiritual body. Just like your shirt. The shirt is existing on your actual hand. The shirt has got a hand because you have got hand. So matter is impersonal.
But because the superior prakṛti, jīva, he is person, therefore the matter appears like a person. Because I have got hands and legs, therefore this cloth has got hands and legs.
Otherwise the cloth has no hands and legs; it is impersonal. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni.
This body is just like dress. Just like your coat has got hand, your pant has got leg, but either the pant or coat has no leg, no hand. So, because you have got leg and hand, the coat has got leg and hand. Everyone can understand this. It is very easy.
So the original (and eternally), the spirit soul has got form.
Therefore the cloth has been cut into form. It is very easy to understand. It Otherwise how you get the form? And in this form the spirit soul is trying to enjoy this material world. But it is not puruṣa. It cannot enjoy. That is false. That is illusion." (Lecture SB, Canto 3 Ch 26 Text 3, Bombay, Dec 15, 1974)
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Srila Prabhupada - "Love means two, there must be two, the lover and the beloved." (Lecture on BG Ch 9 text 2-5, NY City, Nov 23, 1966)
Srila Prabhupada - "We have got the propensity to love. Love means somebody else. Love cannot be "one" or love cannot be experienced by on one, there must be two, then there is love. I must deal with you open-hearted, you must deal with me open-hearted, then there is love. So if you want to love Kṛṣṇa, God, then these things must be there." (Aug 9, 1976, Tehran)
Srila Prabhupada - "Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force, no, Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!" (Washington DC July 8, 1976)
Srila Prabhupada - "In the spiritual world service is voluntary. Some devotees want to serve Krsna as flower; so they become flower there if they want to be a flower and lie down at the lotus feet of Krsna, then he becomes flower, voluntarily, and he can change from flower to human body also. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Krsna as cow, he serves Krsna as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. It is inconceivable, yet a fact." (SB Canto 6 Ch 1 text 1-4, Melb, May 20, 1975)
Srila Prabhupada - "Love means you take and you give also. Suppose if you love somebody and you simply take from him, but you don't give. Oh, do you think it is very good? No. It is not good. That is NOT love. That is exploitation. If I go on simply taking from you, and if I don't offer you anything, that is simply exploitation." (Lecture BG, Ch 9 text 2-5, New York City , Nov 23, 1966)
Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare.
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Service to Krsna is always voluntary, He is more pleased by His devotees when they serve the servants of the servants of His "genuine" servants.
Krsna allows the jiva-souls to express themselves in their own unique way. Serving Krsna via His pure devotees is a choice the jiva-souls can make and is NEVER forced by Krsna.
Loving exchanges can only happen when voluntary reciprocation between "two-persons" occurs, where the jiva-souls can also "voluntarily" choose a service they prefer, instead of being forced to obey every demand without personal contributions.
Sadly, they are told they are doing what Krsna wants, or what His so called representative (spiritual master) wants, without first being encouraged to voluntarily express a service they choose to do.
This is what being a PERSON means, where one learns to communicate as an individual person instead of being forcefully told with hash words to "surrender" your intelligence, your free will and just let Krsna flow through you controlling your every thoughts and actions.
No, denying one's own unique individual personality by attempting to extinguish it under the heading of "surrendering" to the spiritual Master and Krsna, is impersonalism.
Actually this type of "surrender" denies the devotee to voluntarily offer their own personal contributions and be properly trained to express their unique independent personality that is ALWAYS separate from Krsna's Personality.
Being demanded by crazy cult leaders (bogus swamis, sannyasis and so called devotees) to abandon your unique sense of individual identity, personality, character and ability of self expression, and then letting these crazy cult manipulators do all the thinking for you, is the worst type of exploitation and abuse that only leads to spiritual suicide.
Srila Prabhupada - "To lose your independence is force, in Bengali it is said, if you catch one girl or boy and demand they love you, they love me otherwise I will kill you, is that love? You love me, otherwise I will kill you! Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver, you love me, otherwise I shall kill you! That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force! That is rape! Why one is called lover, another is called rape?" (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C)
Real love or service is based on a "two-way" expression where the student Vaisnava is carefully nurtured to achieve the personal goal of voluntary loving exchanges that are the foundations of pure devotional service.
Genuine voluntary loving exchanges with Krsna can only be fully expressed when the jiva-souls realize they each have their independent individual freedom and unique personality separate from Krsna's Personality endorsed with free will.
Without free will, one would never have the vision to intelligently contribute in their relationship with Kṛṣṇa, increasing and expanding one's awareness of who they are as a contributing independent marginal living entity (jiva-soul)
Bali Mardana - "An example of free will is someone can choose Kṛṣṇa or turn away? Is that an example of free will?"
Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes, because if you accept Kṛṣṇa, then you must follow what Kṛṣṇa says. If you don't follow Kṛṣṇa, then what is the use of talking of Kṛṣṇa? If he accepts Kṛṣṇa, he must abide by the injunction of Kṛṣṇa." (Morning Walk, Jan 22, 1974, Hawaii)
So without free will, one is no better than dead stone that is unable to voluntarily receive or give love.
Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will. But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone either. That is not life." (Aug 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)
Swedish man - "Is there free will?"
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, just like you are sitting here. If you don’t like, you can go away. That’s your free will. There is free will, we are part and parcel of God, therefore we have got minute quantity of freedom." (Temple lecture Stockholm Sweden 1974)
Srila Prabhupada explains "free will," and why the jiva-souls always have their free will, but only fully realized in Goloka Vrindavana and the Vaikuntha planets.
Having free will in the spiritual world is necessary for the jiva-souls, so they can voluntarily express themselves in the unique service of their choice to Krsna in a "two-sided" relationship of loving exchanges, cooperation and reciprocation.
Association between the devotee, Guru and Krsna is never an impersonal "one-sided" puppet on a string forceful domination where an aspiring devotee is foolishly told to forget themselves and just let Krsna flow through them, controlling all their thoughts and actions.
No, such impersonalism is attempting to extinguish the aspiring devotees individuality and learning how to voluntarily contribute to their relationship with Krsna.
The idea that surrender means forgetting yourself and your free will (being able to voluntarily express yourself) by allowing Krsna to take complete control of your thoughts and actions, is not only impersonalism but also spiritual suicide.
Srila Prabhupāda – "Unless there are "two-persons," where is the question of love? Love means two persons, then there is exchange, then there is love. I must deal with you open-hearted, you must deal with me open-hearted, then there is love. So if you want to love Kṛṣṇa, God, then these things must be there." (Aug 9, 1976, Tehran)
Srila Prabhupada - "Love means two. There must be two, the lover and the beloved. Kṛṣṇa is already lover. He loves you so much that He's trying to get you back. Therefore love cannot be one or love cannot be executed only one, there must be another one. I love somebody; somebody loves me, so there must be lover, there must be beloved. We must understand that love means you take and you give also. Suppose if you love somebody and you simply take from him, but you don't give. Oh, do you think it is very good? No, it is not good, that is not love, that is exploitation and forced obedience. If I go on simply taking from you, and if I don't offer you anything, that is simply exploitation." (1966 - 1974, Vaniquotes)
Srila Prabhupada - "The impersonalist philosophy is oneness. So how there be love with just one? Is it possible? Have you got any such experience that love means one? No. Love means two. There must be two, the lover and the beloved. Kṛṣṇa is already lover. He loves you so much that He's trying to get you back. That is Kṛṣṇa's attempt. "Please, My dear boy, or My dear friend, My dear servant." (Lecture on SB, Canto 2 Ch 1 text 3, Paris, June 12, 1974)
Krsna always serves His pure devotees far more than they can ever serve Him! However, such pure devotees are extremely rare in the material world.
The mundane cold loveless slave/master "impersonal relationship of convenience" between individuals in these crazy cults does not exists in Goloka Vrindavana or Vaikuntha (The Kingdoms of God). In the REAL spiritual world there are always deep loving exchanges of emotions and reciprocation going on between Krsna and His dear friends, family members and inhabitants of Vrindavana.
Reciprocation and loving exchanges between two are the only foundation of spiritual life because "love" can never exist in a "one-sided" relationship. It is never a "one-way street" of just obey, obey obey and do what you are told, no, that impersonal reaction will only deny and restrict the jiva-soul's individual voluntary contributions of sharing of one's unique abilities.
No two jiva-souls are the same in the Spiritual Sky (both spiritual and material worlds), every jiva-soul is "unique" with their own personality, individuality in their relationship with Krsna.
How boring would Goloka-Vrindavan be if every jiva-soul in God's Kingdom cooked food preparation in exactly the same way all the time being like a mindless robot in an assembly line.
That version of the Vaikuntha planets and Goloka-Vrindavana, the Kingdoms of God, should be rejected because it impersonalism!
That "impersonal" version of "surrender," prominent in the 1970s to the 1990s, represented by many nonsense religious cults (sangas) and their bogus spiritual masters, including Rtvik nonsense, are all just mindless concocted dangerous versions of religion not bonafide by authoritized scriptures.
It is in those groups the cult congregation of devotees are told, under the disguise of "surrender," to extinguish their individual identity, free will and acts of voluntary service, as a independent contributor, instead just being told what to do and how think like a mindless drone.
No, love between the devotee, Krsna and Guru can never exist in a selfish, domineering relationship, that is a "one-sided" and impersonal like that.
That kind of unproductive impersonalism denies loving reciprocation, voluntary contributions and individual personal exchanges of intimacy between Krsna and his servants.
The fact is, this kind of nonsense mindless surrender that denies personal contributions and self-expression, certainly does not exist in the Kingdom of God of Goloka-Vrindavan or the Vaikuntha planets.
On the spiritual level of Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana, one never denies, or attempts to extinguish their free will or individuality, thinking that is becoming selfless, or is the real meaning of "surrender."
Being Krsna's mindless drone by giving up your free will is not the meaning of surrender, it is actually spiritual suicide as said above.
Being the unique person one eternally is, and having the free will that allows one to give the very best of their character in the service of the Lord, is what selflessness and surrender really means, and is the basis of who one really is as that independent person in both Goloka-Vrindavana and the Vaikuntha planets.
Having "free will" is the eternal constitutional make up of every "marginal living entity (jiva-soul)", and is the standard for all to follow and understand.
Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will!" (Aug 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)
Srila Prabhupada - "So, unless there is a possibility of misusing our free will, there is no question of freedom." (Dialectical Spiritualism, Critique of Descartes)
The jiva-souls in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana therefore are forever expanding their sense of individuality with personal offerings based on selfless loving reciprocation with Krsna.
It is never a "one-sided" puppet/master impersonal relation with the Krsna.
Srila Prabhupada - "Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force, no, Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!" (Washington DC July 8, 1976)
Real love or Bhakti is reciprocal, as said above, it is never a one way street where surrender to Krsna takes away one's sense of self, individuality and personal contributions.
Devotee - "Srila Prabhupada why did Krsna give us free will if He knew we would miss use it in the material world?"
Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will! But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone either. That is not life." (Aug 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)
This is important to understand because each individual jiva-soul has their own independent personality, sense of self and unique characteristics that they only individually have, that is part and parcel of each individual marginal living entities make up as the independent eternal "person" they are.
Srila Prabhupada - "Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence, so God does not interfere with your little independence." (Melb, Australia June 25, 1974)
Srila Prabhupada – "So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, or one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that is not independence, that is force." (Los Angeles, June 23, 1975)
Srila Prabhupada - "Unless there is a possibility of misusing our free will, there is no question of freedom." (Dialectical Spiritualism, Critique of Descartes)
Vipina Purandara - "Why doesn’t Krsna save me from miss using my free will?"
Srila Prabhupada - "That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me." Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?" (July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C. USA)
Only sentimental silly fools believe the jiva-souls can never fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana.
Paramahamsa - "But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return to the material world?
Srila Prabhupada - "There IS return, that is voluntary, return is there."
Paramahamsa - "If we want."
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes."
Paramahamsa - "So we can come to the spiritual world and return?"
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes."
Paramahamsa - "Fall down?"
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, as soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice, Krsna says, yes, you go and enjoy the material world, otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy separately." It is free will. Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, "Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here." He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that."
Paramahamsa - "So our desire to enjoy, we achieve these material bodies; and our desire to achieve Krsna brings us to our natural position."
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes." (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course, May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)
Devotee - "Srila Prabhupada why did Krsna give us free will if He knew we would miss use it?"
Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will! But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone either. That is not life." (Aug 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)
Srila Prabhupada - "Free will means that you can act wrongly. That is "free will." Unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then? If I act only one sided, that means I have no free will. Because we act sometimes wrongly, that means free will."
Hayagriva Dasa - "A man may know better but still act wrongly."
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, but that is free will. He misuses his. Just like a thief, he knows that his stealing, it is bad, but still he does it. That is free will. He cannot check his greediness, so in spite of his knowing that he is doing wrong thing—he will be punished, he knows; he has seen another thief, he was punished, he was put into prison— everything he knows, but still he steals. Why? Misuse of free will. Unless there is misuse of free will, there is no question of free will." (Discussions with Srila Prabhupada and Rene Descartes 1976)
Srila Prabhupada - "The jiva-soul's position in the spiritual world is "voluntary." Some devotees want to serve Krsna as flower; they become flower there. If I want to be a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Krsna," he becomes flower, voluntarily, and he can change his, from flower to human body. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Krsna as cow, he serves Krsna as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. It is inconceivable, yet a fact." (SB Canto 6 Ch 1 text 1-4, Melb, May 20, 1975)
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The individual marginal living entities (individual jiva-souls) are PERSONS eternally, as a spiritual bodily form.
The jiva-souls are eternal PERSONS which is their full spiritual bodily potential voluntarily serving Krsna the Supreme Personality of Godhead and cause of all causes.
Srila Prabhupada - "The "immediate" expansions of the Lord are called svāṁśa or personal direct expansions (Visnu-tattva who are Krsna playing another role in His own pastimes) The "separated" expansions of the Lord are called vibhinnāṁśa - (jiva-tattva or soul) or independent jiva-souls like us." (BG, Ch 10 Text 37, Purport)
This means each "individual jiva-soul" has their own unique independent spiritual body, personality and free will to voluntarily serve Krsna in 5 different ways or pastimes.
There is no origin to Krsna's marginal energy (jiva-souls) who are an unlimited number of individual jiva-souls who have existed for as long as Krsna has existed, which is eternity.
The jiva-souls are eternal spiritual living PERSONS and can never be destroyed, terminated or extinguished.
The jiva-souls are indestructible and can NEVER cease to exist.
Also, genuine loving exchanges with Krsna can only exist if one's relationship with Krsna is expressed in a "two-sided" relationship of individually giving and receiving loving emotions and feelings.
Srila Prabhupada - "Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then there is love. Not by force! Krsna does not want to become a lover like that." (Washington DC July 8, 1976)
Srila Prabhupāda – "Unless there are "two-persons," where is the question of love? Love means two persons, then there is exchange, then there is love. I must deal with you open-hearted, you must deal with me open-hearted, then there is love. So if you want to love Kṛṣṇa, God, then these things must be there." (Aug 9, 1976, Tehran)
Srila Prabhupada - "The jiva-soul's position in the spiritual world is always "voluntary." Some devotees want to serve Krsna as flower; they become flower there. If I want to be a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Krsna," he becomes flower, voluntarily, and he can change his, from flower to human body. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Krsna as cow, he serves Krsna as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. It is inconceivable, yet a fact." (SB, Canto 6 Ch 1 text 1-4, Melb, May 20, 1975)
The eternal spiritual bodily form of the jiva-soul is-
sat,
cit,
ananda,
vigraha.
These word's means-
eternity,
knowledge,
bliss,
form.
Fortunately, over 90% of jiva-souls choose to stay in the spiritual world's of Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana, even though they can choose to leave if they want, therefore almost 10% of jiva-souls do choose to leave and enter the material creation via the dreams of Maha-Visnu.
In the spiritual world the jiva-soul's loving relationship with Krsna is always voluntary and never forced.
The individual contributions from the jiva-souls are eternally expressed in both Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana in "two-way" reciprocal exchange with Krsna and Visnu.
In the spiritual world the jiva-souls are never forced to surrender to Krsna, all service to Krsna is voluntary.
For loving service and exchanges to truly exist, the individual jiva-souls must be able to act on their free will and make their own choices, decisions and offerings, even if it also means rejecting Krsna if they choose, otherwise there can be no question of voluntary loving exchanges.
Each jiva-soul can voluntarily express themselves as an independent individual to experience unique loving exchanges and personal service.
Srila Prabhupada - "So, unless there is a possibility of misusing our free will, there is no question of freedom." (Dialectical Spiritualism)
This quality of free will is part and parcel of the jiva-soul's marginal constitution that allows them to be an independent free thinking (able to have a voluntarily act of self expression) expansion of Krsna. Therefore, being a marginal living entity (jiva-soul) means having free will that is included when describing the qualities of the individual jiva-souls.
As said above, Krsna allows this freedom the jiva-souls have because without free will loving exchanges, personal offerings and contributions in a "two-way" reciprocal relationship would never exist.
Srila Prabhupada – "You have got little independence therefore you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God you have got independence, proportionately, therefore if he likes he can return to the material atmosphere. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that." (Mayapur, Feb 19, 1976)
Having free will explained above, is the constitutional make up of all marginal living entities (jiva-souls) that is eternally part and parcel of their individual character and personality in the spiritual world.
This even means the jiva-souls can choose to leave the Vaikuntha planets or Goloka-Vrindavana if they choose, at anytime.
lt is nonsense to claim the jiva-souls can never again fall down once in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana, they do and can always fall down, but most (over 90%) choose to stay.
This is because free will always allows the choice to choose, and without the ability to voluntarily choose, there is no question of loving exchanges.
So, the choice to even leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana is possible because Krsna allows a "two-way" relationship where one can accept or reject Krsna if they choose.
Bali Mardana - "An example of free will is someone can choose Kṛṣṇa or turn away? Is that an example of free will?"
Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes, because if you accept Kṛṣṇa, then you must follow what Kṛṣṇa says. If you don't follow Kṛṣṇa, then what is the use of talking of Kṛṣṇa? If he accepts Kṛṣṇa, he must abide by the injunction of Kṛṣṇa."(Morning Walk, Jan 22, 1974, Hawaii)
Srila Prabhupada - "Free will means that you can act wrongly. That is free will, unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then? If I act only one sided, that means I have no free will. Because we act sometimes wrongly, that means free will."
Hayagriva - "A man may know better but still act wrongly."
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, but that is free will He misuses his. Just like a thief, he knows that his stealing is bad but still he does it. That is free will. He cannot check his greediness, so in spite of his knowing that he is doing wrong thing—he will be punished, he knows; he has seen another thief, he was punished, he was put into prison— everything he knows, but still he steals. Why? Misuse of free will. Unless there is misuse of free will, there is no question of free will." (Talk on Rene Descartes with Hayagriva dasa)
Srila Prabhupada – "So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, or one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one-way only, that is not independence, that is force." (Los Angeles, June 23, 1975)
Genuine loving exchanges can never exist if one's relationship with God was not a "two-way" exchange of feelings, but only a domineering "one-sided" affair with a so called God. Freedom or free will obviously includes having the choice to accept or reject Krsna, otherwise free will has no meaning and is useless.
Srila Prabhupada - "Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then there is love. Not by force! Krsna does not want to become a lover like that." (Washington DC July 8, 1976)
Srila Prabhupāda – "Unless there are "two-persons," where is the question of love? Love means two persons, then there is exchange, then there is love. I must deal with you open-hearted, you must deal with me open-hearted, then there is love. So if you want to love Kṛṣṇa, God, then these things must be there." (Aug 9, 1976, Tehran)
There is only one classification of jiva-souls (marginal living entities) who can remain liberated or become conditioned in the material world, not two as some foolish believe.
This means each individual jiva-soul has "two-sides" to their character and personality. They can either be "nitya-baddha" (eternally conditioned), or "nitya-siddha" (eternally liberated)
The term "eternal" means ONLY while in that "perpetual free state" in the spiritual world, or while "conditioned" in the material world.
This means the jiva-souls can choose for themselves to be with Krsna, or reject Krsna. Each jiva-soul, as part and parcel of their spiritual constitutional make-up, always have the free will to choose.
Srila Prabhupada - "So, unless there is a possibility of misusing our free will, there is no question of freedom." (Dialectical Spiritualism, Critique of Descartes)
Srila Prabhupada – "So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, or one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that is not independence; that is force." (Los Angeles, June 23, 1975)
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Srila Prabhupada - "The jiva-souls are always called marginal energy whether he is in the spiritual world or in the material world. There are instances where marginal energy jiva-souls have fallen from the spiritual world, just like Jaya and Vijaya. So the potency to fall under the influence of the lower energy is always there. And thus the individual jiva-soul is called as Krsna’s marginal energy." (Letter to Rayarama, Dec 2, 1968)
Srila Prabhupada - "The "immediate" expansions of the Lord are called svāṁśa or personal direct expansions (Visnu-tattva who are Krsna playing another role in His own pastimes) The "separated" expansions of the Lord are called vibhinnāṁśa (jiva-tattva or "independent" jiva-souls (marginal living entities) like us." (BG, Ch 10 Text 37, Purport)
Each individual jiva-soul (marginal living entity) in the spiritual world can "choose" to "voluntarily" serve Krsna in an unlimited variety of ways as an unlimited varieties of bodily forms, or can even reject Krsna if they choose to do so, and enter or return to the impermanent decaying material world.
Srila Prabhupada – "The jiva-souls are Krsna’s marginal energy. Marginal energy means the jiva-souls may be under the control of the spiritual energy, or they may be under the control of material energy. But when the jiva-souls are under the control of the material energy, that is their precarious condition, struggle for existence. And when they are under spiritual energy, that is their original position and life of freedom." (Los Angeles, Nov 23, 1968)
Being "marginal" means the jiva-souls can always choose to be under the influence of the spiritual energy or under the material energy or choose to be either nitya-siddha or nitya-baddha.
Srila Prabhupada - "There are two kinds of marginal living entities: nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. The actual constitutional position of EVER marginal living entity is nitya-siddha." (CC lecture, July 13, 1976)
Srila Prabhupada - "By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can become again nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas AGAIN nitya-siddha." (New York Lecture CC, July 13, 1976)
Srila Prabhupada - "So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas AGAIN nitya-siddha, to bring them to their original position. It is a difficult task." (London lecture BG, 13-14, July 14, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - "Nitya-baddhas are within this material world. Beginning from Brahma down to a small ant, insignificant ant, they are all nitya-baddha. Anyone who enters the material world, they are nitya baddha." (Lecture BG, 13-14, July 14, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada – "Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka (Goloka Vrindavana), does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at anytime, so there is always a chance of falling down by misuse of one’s independence." (Letter to Jagadisa Dasa, 4/25/1970)
Srila Prabhupada – "These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities. There is no new souls. New and old are due to this material body, but the soul is never born and never dies, so if there is no birth how there can be new soul." (Letter to Jagadisa Dasa, 7/9/1970)
Srila Prabhupada - "Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities, usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence." (Letter to Jagadisa Dasa, 02/27/1970)
Srila Prabhupada - "But his relationship with Krsna is never lost, simply forgotten by the influence of maya, it maybe regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original constitutional position (nitya-siddha). The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new." (Letter to Jagadisa Dasa, 02/27/1970)
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Devotee – "When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krsna, we have a perfect relationship with Krsna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we’re already serving Krsna?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that "Don’t fall down.
Devotee – "Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving."
Srila Prabhupada – "Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is desire."
Devotee – "In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krsna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krsna did not want us to come, why are we here?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Yes, you forced Krsna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, "My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there." But he insists, Oh, I must go. I must go." "All right, you go at your risk. That’s all. And you suffer. What can be done?" Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, almighty—therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence. If you persist that "I must go and enjoy independently," so God says, "All right, you can go." This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy." (Melb, Australia June 25, 1974)
Question - Is there a place in the spiritual world from where we can never fall down from?"
Answer - No, it is not based on a place where you can never fall down from that keeps you in Vaikuntha, it does not work that way because of free will, which means there is always choice to leave Vaikuntha at any moment or voluntarily stay.
If you were forced to stay there then how can there be love? The choice to leave or stay must always be with the jiva-souls too.
So, many cannot understand what free will really means, they sentimentally claim "not even the leaves fall from Vaikuntha."
It is nonsense to claim the jiva-souls can ever again fall down from Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana because they each have their own free will and can make their own decisions no matter what Kṛṣṇa promises.
Remaining in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana eternally is based on what the jiva-soul's want to do as a unique individual, it is also their choice to say or go, not just Krsnas as explained above, otherwise there is no meaning to having free will.
If Krsna forced His will on the jiva-souls then He destroys their independence, free will and ability to voluntarily express themselves in their own unique way, allowing themselves to choose where they want to be even if returning to the material creation.
In other words, the jiva-souls also have a choice to become a servant of the Lord or can reject Him if they want, even in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana.
Genuine loving exchanges can never exist if one's relationship with Krsna the Supreme Lord was not in a "two-way" voluntary reciprocation.
Srila Prabhupada - "The jiva-soul's position in the spiritual world is always "voluntary." Some devotees want to serve Krsna as flower; they become flower there. If I want to be a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Krsna," he becomes flower, voluntarily, and he can change his, from flower to human body. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Krsna as cow, he serves Krsna as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. It is inconceivable, yet a fact." (SB, Canto 6 Ch 1 text 1-4, Melb, May 20, 1975)
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The claim that once reaching Vaikuntha the jiva-souls can never again fall down is not exactly true for all.
To claim those who enter Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana will never again fall down to the material creation, is only true for those who choose NOT to fall down which is most, over 90% of jiva-souls.
However, if the jiva-souls want to leave the Vaikuntha planets and Goloka-Vrindavana, they certainly can. Therefore, entering the material world is ultimately the jiva-soul's choice, and Krsna does not interfere with that choice, even though He promised there is no return to the material creation once entering the spiritual atmosphere.
The fact is, there IS a choice simple because Krsna allows it, the jiva-souls can even reject Krsna and His promise they will never again fall to the material world in a "two-way" voluntary exchange of emotions.
In other words, there is return IF the jiva-souls want to return to the material creation Prabhupada tells us, it is their choice.
Acyutananda – "But in the Bhagavad Gita it says, "Once coming there to the spiritual abodes, he never returns to the material worlds, he can return?"
Srila Prabhupada – "If he likes he can return."
Guru-kripa – "How is it that one can become envious of Krsna?"
Srila Prabhupada – "You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown." (Conversation, Mayapur, Feb 19, 1976)
So, clearly those who believe no one can ever fall down from Vaikuntha have not understood the variety of living entities in Vaikuntha of whom the jiva-souls are just one and Prabhupada's comments here.
As said above, only a very small minority of jiva-souls (less than 10%) choose to leave but not in the category of Visnu-tattvas who can never fall down because they are Krsna Himself playing another role in His own pastimes.
Many have not understood there are many different categories of living entities in Vrindavana who never fall down, such as the many Visnu-tattva personalities.
And for over 90% of jiva-souls, they also never fall down because they choose not to fall down.
Devotee - "Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka (Goloka-Vrindavana), there’s no possibility of falling down again?"
Srila Prabhupada - "No, there is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it in again IF you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent." (CC, Adi-lila 7.108 San Francisco, Feb 18, 1967)
Sadly, there are a small minority who do not learn from the lesson of being in the material world, and they do return to the material world (less than 10% of jiva-souls do fall from the Vaikuntha planets and Goloka-Vrindavana)
Free will is eternal in the spiritual world and without having the free expression to choose to either forget Krsna, or remember Krsna, then the jiva-souls would have no independent personality or a sense of independent self.
The marginal living entities (jiva-souls) are eternally separate from Krsna's Personality who have their own unique character and personality who voluntarily contribute from their own unique independent abilities and talents that gives personality to their identity.
Without having the unique individual ability to voluntarily offer love as an independent PERSON, we are no better than dead stone.
The eternal constitution and original position of the marginal living entities (jiva-souls) is fully explained by Krsna disguised as a brahmana as follows-
The Brāhmaṇa said - "My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can't you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world." (SB, 4th Canto Ch, 28 text 53)
Srila Prabhupada - "So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krsna says, yathecchasi tathä kuru. "Now you do whatever you like." (Los Angeles, June 23, 1975)
There was no beginning to the marginal living entities (jiva-souls) existence, nor will there be an end as Bhagavad Gita As It Is explains. The jiva-souls are eternal spiritual living PERSONS and can never be destroyed, terminated or extinguished, the jiva-souls are indestructible.
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - “Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.” (BG, Ch 2 text 12, 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - “As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change." (BG, Ch 2 text 13, 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - “O son of Kuntī, the nonpermanent appearance of happiness and distress, and their disappearance in due course, are like the appearance and disappearance of winter and summer seasons. They arise from sense perception, O scion of Bharata, and one must learn to tolerate them without being disturbed." (BG, Ch 2 text 14, 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - “Those who are seers of the truth have concluded that of the nonexistent [the material body] there is no endurance and of the eternal [the soul] there is no change. This they have concluded by studying the nature of both." (BG, Ch 2 text 16, 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - “That which pervades the entire body you should know to be indestructible. No one is able to destroy that imperishable soul." (BG, Ch 2 text 17, 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - “Neither he who thinks the living entity the slayer nor he who thinks it slain is in knowledge, for the self slays not nor is slain." (BG, Ch 2 text 19, 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." (BG, Ch 2 text 20 “corrected” 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "O Pārtha, how can a person who knows that the soul is indestructible, eternal, unborn and immutable kill anyone or cause anyone to kill?" (BG, Ch 2 text 21, 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, the soul similarly accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones." (BG, Ch 2 text 22, 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "The soul can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind." (BG, Ch 2 text 23, 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same." (BG, Ch 2 text 24, 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "It is said that the soul is invisible, inconceivable and immutable. Knowing this, you should not grieve for the body." (BG, Ch 2 text 25, 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "Some look on the soul as amazing, some describe him as amazing, and some hear of him as amazing, while others, even after hearing about him, cannot understand him at all." (BG, Ch 2 text 29, 1983 edition)
All individual jīva-souls are ETERNAL persons in the spiritual and material worlds therefore, there are no new jiva-souls being created because they have ALWAYS existed, meaning they are beginningless and endless.
Srila Prabhupada – “There are no new souls, new and old are due to this material body, but the jiva-soul is never born and never dies, so if there is no birth, how can there be new souls?” (Letter to Jagadisa dasa, 7/9/1970)
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