Krsna's Abode of Goloka Vrindavana is described in Brahma-samhita as cintamani-dhama, a place where ALL desires are fulfilled.

Cintamani (or the Cintamani Stone), is a wish-fulfilling jewel in Goloka Vrindavana.

Cintamani is ALWAYS aspired to achieve by great devotes because they ONLY desire to please Krsna.

To say you have no desires in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana is Impersonalism or Mayavadi nonsense.

One NEVER loses "desires" once they are in the Spiritual Worlds because THOSE desires are forever expanding to always please Krsna.

Spiritual life means to be always be ACTIVELY involved in a variety of voluntary activities to please Krsna and NEVER be inactive.

This is what PERSONALISM means.

It is foolish to think one becomes "desireless" in the Spiritual Worlds, only foolish impersonalist try to extinguish their desires and individual identity.

Actually devotees of Krsna are ALWAYS increasing their desires in both Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana because they aspire to ALWAYS please Krsna more and more.

In this temporary material universe there are millions of Brahmanda universes, and in each Brahmanda exists a smaller secondary material universe that houses many planetary systems.

There are innumerable Brahmanda universes coming out of the pores of Maha Visnu’s body when He exhales; and when He inhales, they all enter back into Him. 

And Maha Visnu is only a portion of Krsna. Maha Visnu expands Himself as Garbhodakashayi Visnu and enters into every secondary material universe found deep inside each massive Brahmanda universe.

And beyond this mundane material world there are the spiritual worlds, full of innumerable, gigantic eternal Spiritual Planets called Vaikunthas and Goloka Vrindavana, which are all resting in the effulgence of Sri Krsna.

Krsna engages in divine pastimes in the massive central Planet called Goloka Vrindavana, Krsna's eternal home of transcendental pastimes.

Krsna as His original Form in Vrindavan NEVER leaves there.

Therefore all His pastimes in the material world's facsimile of Vrindavana, including killing demons, are performed by His Visnu-tattva expansion who plays the part of Krsna.

The Supreme Abode of the Personality of Godhead, Krsna, is described in the Brahma-samhita as cintamani-dhama, a place where all desires are fulfilled. 

The Supreme Abode of Lord Krsna, known as Goloka Vrndavana, is full of palaces made of touchstone. 

There are also trees, called “desire trees,” that supply any type of eatable upon demand, and there are cows, known as surabhi cows, which supply a limitless supply of milk. 

In this abode, the Krsna is served by hundreds of thousands of goddesses of fortune (Lakshmis), and He is called Govinda, the primal Lord and the cause of all causes.

Vedic literatures (Katha Upanisad 1.3.11) state that there is nothing superior to the abode of the Supreme Godhead, and that abode is the ultimate destination (purushan na param kincit sa kastha parama gatih). 

When one attains to Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana, if one chooses, they never returns to the material world. 

Krsna’s Supreme Abode and Krsna Himself are nondifferent, being of the same quality. This Supreme abode of Lord Krsna is shaped like the whorl of a lotus flower. 

Even when the Lord descends to any one of the mundane planets, He does so by manifesting His own abode as it is.

On this earth, Vrndavana (160 kilometres southeast of Delhi), is a replica of that supreme Goloka Vrindavana located in the spiritual sky. 

When Krsna descended on this earth, He sported on that particular tract of land known as Vrindavana, comprising about 217 square kilometres in the district of Mathura, India.

Krsna means the highest pleasure. 

We are all hankering after pleasure. We, the living entities, like Krsna, are full of consciousness, and we are looking for happiness. 

Krsna is perpetually happy, and if we associate with Krsna and cooperate with Him we will also become happy.

Krsna descends to this material world to show His pastimes in Vrndavana, which are full of happiness, His activities with His cowherd boy friends, with the gopis, with the inhabitants of Vrndavana and with the cows were all full of happiness. 

The total population of Vrndavana knew nothing but Krsna and never knew Him as the Supreme Lord, to them He was their best friend and protector.

They did not care if He was God or not, He was just their amazing friend.

The purpose of Krsna’s pastimes in Vrindavan on this planet is so we can see such wonderful pastimes of Krsna and therefore come to understand something of what life in the spiritual world, the abode of Krsna, will be like when we go there.

Krsna gives a description of the eternal sky in Bhagavad-Gita As It Is

“That abode of Mine is not illuminated by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. And anyone who reaches it never comes back to this material world.” (Bg. 15.6)

This verse gives a description of that eternal spiritual sky. We have a material conception of the sky, and we think of it in relationship to the sun, moon, stars and so on, but in this verse Krsna states that in the eternal Spiritual sky there is no need for the sun nor for the moon nor fire of any kind because the spiritual sky is already illuminated by the brahmajyoti, the rays emanating from the Krsna's Body.

Krsna resides eternally in His abode in the spiritual sky on central planet of Goloka-Vrindavana but can be approached from in this world via a bonafide Spiritual Master of Krsna.

Krsna comes to facsimile of His Vrindavana home via His Visnu-tattva expansion who plays the part of Krsna.

Krsna's original form is eternally present in Vrindavan performing unlimited wonderful pastimes there and never leaves.

When Krsna manifests as His Vrindavana form in the material creation, it is His Visnu-tattva expansion who descends and exhibits Himself as Kṛṣṇa, as Syamasundara, and plays that part. 

Unfortunately the less intelligent deride Krsna because He comes as one of us and plays with us as a human being. 

But because of this we should not consider that Krsna is one of us. 

It is by His potency that He presents Himself as His real Vrindavana form and displays His pastimes.

Vrindavana in the material creation is a facsimile of the Spiritual Worlds Vrindavana pastimes with the added pastimes of killing demons.

Of course in the original Vrindavana there are no demons but in the material creation's facsimile they DO exist.

In the effulgent rays of the Spiritual Sky there are innumerable Vaikuntha planets are floating. 

The brahmajyoti emanates from the Supreme Abode, Krsnaloka (Goloka-Vrindavana), and the anandamaya-cinmaya planets, which are not material, float in those rays too. 

Krsna says, “One who can approach that Spiritual Sky is not required to descend again to the material sky.”

How to travel to the spiritual sky-

In the material sky, even if we approach the highest planet (Brahmaloka), what to speak of the moon, we will find the same conditions of life, namely birth, death, disease and old age. 

No planet in the material universe is free from these four principles of material existence. 

Therefore Krsna says in Bhagavad-Gita As It Is that the living entities are traveling from one planet to another, not by mechanical arrangement, but by a spiritual process. 

No mechanical arrangement is necessary if we want interplanetary travel.

Bhagavad-Gita As It Is informs us how to travel to the higher planetary systems (devaloka) with a very simple formula: yanti deva-vrata devan. 

One need only worship the particular demigod of that particular planet and in that way go to the moon, the sun or any of the higher planetary systems.

Yet Bhagavad-Gita As It Is does not advise us to go to any of the planets in this temporary decaying material world because even if we go to Brahmaloka, the highest planet in the material world, through some sort of mechanical means by maybe traveling for forty thousand years (and who would live that long?), we will still find the material inconveniences of birth, death, disease and old age. 

But one who wants to approach the supreme planet, Krsnaloka, or any of the other planets within the spiritual sky, will not meet with these material inconveniences.

Among all of the planets in the Spiritual Sky there is one Supreme Planet called Goloka Vrndavana, which is the original planet and the abode of the original Personality of Godhead Sri Krsna. 

All of this information is given in Bhagavad-Gita As It Is , and we are given through its instruction information how to leave the material world and begin a truly blissful life in the spiritual sky.

Who can reach the Spiritual Planets?

The Spiritual Worlds can be reached by one who is nirmana-moha. 

What does this mean? 

Someone wants to become a Lord of their surroundings, or become the president, or a rich man or a king or something else, so as long as we are attached to these designations, we are attached to the material body because designations belong to the material body. 

But we are NOT these material bodily vessels, and realizing this is the first stage in spiritual realization. 

We are associated with the three modes of material nature, but we must become detached through devotional service to the Lord. 

If we are not attached to devotional service to the Lord, then we CANNOT become detached from the modes of material nature. 

Designations and attachments are due to our lust and desire, our wanting to lord it over the material nature. 

As long as we do not give up this propensity of lording it over material nature, there is NO possibility of returning to the Kingdom of the Supreme, the sanatana-dhama of Goloka Vrindavana or the Vaikuntha Planets. 

Krsna's eternal kingdom, which is never destroyed, can be approached by one who is not bewildered by the attractions of false material enjoyments, who is situated in the service of the Supreme Lord. One so situated can easily approach the Supreme Abode of Krsnas.

How can we get to the Spiritual Worlds?

Next, one may raise the question of how one goes about approaching that abode of the Supreme Lord. 

Information on this is given in the Eighth Chapter of Bhagavad-Gita As It Is. It is said there-

“Anyone who quits his body, at the end of life, remembering Me, attains immediately to My nature; and there is no doubt of this.” (Bg. 8.5)

One who thinks of Krsna at the time of his death goes to Krsna. One must remember the form of Krsna; if he quits his body thinking of Krsna's Bodily Form, he approaches the Spiritual Kingdom of Goloka Vrindavana. 

One who leaves this material body thinking of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, at once manifests their perpetual Spiritual Bodily form (Vigraha), as is promised in the fifth verse of the Eighth Chapter where Lord Krsna says, “He attains My nature.”

Of course the jiva-souls ALWAYS have their free will to accept, or even reject Krsna's promise of no return to the material worlds once returning back home back to Godhead because there is ALWAYS choice in Goloka Vrindavana and Vaikuntha.

Our actions in this life in the material creation is a preparation for our next life, on and on, like that. 

If we can prepare ourselves to selflessly serve Krsna in this life so we can get promotion to the kingdom of God (Goloka Vrindavana), then surely, after quitting this material troublesome body, we will uncover our Spiritual bodily form that is just like Krsnas.

Therefore at the end of life the devotees think of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Sri Krsna and because the devotee is in personal touch with the Supreme Lord, such a devotee enters into the Goloka Vrindavana in the spiritual sky, or serving Visnu on the Vaikuntha Planets, if they choose. 

The Lord further adds, "of this there is no doubt.” This must be believed firmly to never again fall back to the material creation.  

Our attitude can learn from the atitude of Arjuna when Kṛṣṇa gave him the choice to follow Him or reject Him: 

“I believe everything that You have said.” 

Therefore when the Lord says that at the time of death, whoever thinks of Him as Brahman or Paramatma or as the Personality of Godhead certainly enters into the spiritual sky, there is no doubt about it. There is no question of disbelieving it.

The information on how to think of the Supreme Being Krsna at the time of death is also given in the Bhagavad-Gita As It Is: 

“In whatever condition one quits his present body, in his next life he will attain to that state of being without fail.” (Bg. 8.6)

So we can remember Krsna at the time of death we must always engage our minds in reading the Vedic literatures like Bhagavad-Gita As It Is and Srimad-Bhagavatam. 

Just as materialists engage their minds in reading newspapers, magazines and so many materialistic literatures, we must transfer our reading to these literatures which are given to us by Vyasadeva; in that way it will be possible for us to remember the Supreme Lord at the time of death. 

That is the only way suggested by the Lord, and He guarantees the result if you choose to accept: 

“There is no doubt.” (Bg. 8.7)

“Therefore, Arjuna, you should always think of Me, and at the same time you should continue your prescribed duty and fight. 

With your mind and activities always fixed on Me, and everything engaged in Me, you will attain to Me without any doubt.” (Bg. 8.7)

The Brahma Samhita

1) Krsna who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He

is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes.

2) I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, the first progenitor who is tending the cows, yielding all desire, in abodes built with spiritual gems, surrounded by millions of purpose trees, always served with great reverence and affection by hundreds of thousands of lakshmis or gopis.

3) I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is adept in playing on His flute, with blooming eyes like lotus petals with head decked with peacock's feather, with the figure of beauty tinged with the hue of blue clouds, and His unique loveliness charming millions of Cupids.

4) I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, round whose neck is swinging a garland of flowers beautified with the moon-locket, whose two hands are adorned with the flute and jeweled ornaments, who always revels in pastimes of love, whose graceful threefold bending form of Syamasundara is eternally manifest.

5) I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, whose transcendental form is full of bliss, truth, substantiality and is thus full of the most dazzling splendor. Each of the limbs of that transcendental figure possesses in Himself, the full-fledged functions of all the organs, and eternally sees, maintains and manifests the infinite universes, both spiritual and mundane.

6) I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is inaccessible to the Vedas, but obtainable by pure unalloyed devotion of the soul, who is without a second, who is not subject to decay, is without a beginning, whose form is endless, who is the beginning, and the eternal purusha; yet He is a person possessing the beauty of blooming youth.

7) I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, only the tip of the toe of whose lotus feet is approached by the yogis who aspire after the transcendental and betake themselves to pranayama by drilling the respiration; or by the jnanis who try to find out the non-differentiated Brahman by the process of elimination of the mundane, extending over thousands of millions of years.

8) He is an undifferentiated entity as there is no distinction between potency and the possessor thereof.

In His work of creation of millions of worlds, His potency remains inseparable. All the universes exist in Him and He is present in His fullness in every one of the atoms that are scattered throughout the universe, at one and the same time. Such is the primeval Lord whom I adore.

9) I adore the same Govinda, the primeval Lord, in whose praise men, who are imbued with devotion, sing the mantra-suktas told by the Vedas, by gaining their appropriate beauty, greatness, thrones, conveyances and ornaments.

10) I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, residing in His own realm, Goloka, with Radha, resembling His own spiritual figure, the embodiment of the ecstatic potency possessed of the sixty-four artistic activities, in the company of Her confidantes [sakhis], embodiments of the extensions of Her bodily form, permeated and vitalized by His ever-blissful spiritual rasa.

11) I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is Syamasundara, Krishna Himself with inconceivable innumerable attributes, whom the pure devotees see in their heart of hearts with the eye of devotion tinged with the salve of love.

12) I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who manifested Himself personally as Krishna and the different avataras in the world in the forms of Rama, Nrisimha, Vamana, etc., as His subjective portions.

13) I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, whose effulgence is the source of the nondifferentiated

Brahman mentioned in the Upanishads, being differentiated from the infinity of glories of the

mundane universe appears as the indivisible, infinite, limitless, truth.

14) I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is the absolute substantive principle being the ultimate entity in the form of the support of all existence whose external potency embodies the threefold mundane qualities, viz., sattva, rajas, and tamas and diffuses the Vedic knowledge regarding the mundane world.

15) I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, whose glory ever triumphantly dominates the mundane world by the activity of His own pastimes, being reflected in the mind of recollecting souls as the transcendental entity of ever-blissful cognitive rasa.

16) Lowest of all is located Devi-dhama [mundane world], next above it is Mahesa-dhama [abode

of Mahesa]; above Mahesa dhama is placed Hari-dhama [abode of Hari] and above them all is located Krsna's own realm named Goloka. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda, who has allotted their respective authorities to the rulers of those graded realms.

17) The external potency Maya who is of the nature of the shadow of the cit potency, is worshiped by

all people as Durga, the creating, preserving and destroying agency of this mundane world. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda in accordance with whose will Durga conducts herself.

18) Just as milk is transformed into curd by the action of acids, but yet the effect curd is neither same

as, nor different from, its cause, viz., milk, so I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whom the state of Sambhu is a transformation for the performance of the work of destruction.

19) The light of one candle being communicated to other candles, although it burns separately in them,

is the same in its quality. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda who exhibits Himself equally in the same mobile manner in His various manifestations.

20) I adore the primeval Lord Govinda who assuming His own great subjective form, who bears the name of Sesha, replete with the all-accommodating potency, and reposing in the Causal Ocean with the infinity of the world in the pores of His hair, enjoys creative sleep [yoga-nidra].

21) Brahma and other lords of the mundane worlds, appearing from the pores of hair of Maha-Visnu, remain alive as long as the duration of one exhalation of the latter [Maha-Visnu]. I adore

the primeval Lord Govinda of whose subjective personality Maha-Visnu is the portion of portion.

22) I adore the primeval Lord Govinda from whom the separated subjective portion Brahma receives his power for the regulation of the mundane world, just as the sun manifests some portion of his own light in all the effulgent gems that bear the names of suryakanta, etc.

23) I adore the primeval Lord Govinda, whose lotus feet are always held by Ganesa upon the pair of tumuli protruding from his elephant head in order to obtain power for his function of destroying all the obstacles on the path of progress of the three worlds.

24) The three worlds are composed of the nine elements, viz., fire, earth, ether, water, air, direction,

time, soul and mind. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda from whom they originate, in whom they exist and into whom they enter at the time of the universal cataclysm.

25) The sun who is the king of all the planets, full of infinite effulgence, the image of the good soul, is as the eye of this world. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda in pursuance of whose order the sun performs his journey mounting the wheel of time.

26) I adore the primeval Lord Govinda, by whose conferred power are maintained the

manifested potencies, that are found to exist, of all virtues, all vices, the Vedas, the penances and all jiva-souls, from Brahma to the meanest insect.

27) I adore the primeval Lord Govinda, who burns up to their roots all fruitive activities of those who are imbued with devotion and impartially ordains for each the due enjoyment of the fruits of one's activities, of all those who walk in the path of work, in accordance with the chain of their previously performed works, no less in the case of the tiny insect that bears the name of indragopa than in that of Indra, king of the devas.

28) I adore the primeval Lord Govinda, the meditators of whom, by meditating upon Him under the sway of wrath, amorous passion, natural friendly love, fear, parental affection, delusion, reverence and willing service, attain to bodily forms befitting the nature of their contemplation.

29) I worship that transcendental seat, known as Svetadvipa where as loving consorts the Laksmis in their unalloyed spiritual essence practice the amorous service of the Supreme Lord Krsna as their only lover; where every tree is a transcendental purpose tree; where the soil is the purpose gem, all water is nectar, every word is a song, every gait is a dance, the flute is the favorite attendant, effulgence is full of transcendental bliss and the supreme spiritual entities are all enjoyable and tasty, where numberless milk cows always emit transcendental oceans of milk; where there is eternal existence of transcendental time, who is ever present and without past or future and hence is not subject to the quality of passing away even for the space of half a moment. 

That realm is known as Goloka-Vrindavana only to a very few self-realized souls in this world.**

Srila Prabhupada - “Service to the Lord is ALWAYS voluntarily, one can choose who they want to be in Goloka-Vrindavana at Krsna’s lotus feet, or on the Vaikuntha planets serving Visnu. And they can change their bodily relationship (rasa) with the Lord if they desire at any time." (Melb, May 20, 1975)

Srila Prabhupada - "This material world is the taṭastha "material conditioned" characteristics, and the spiritual world is the "Personal" (Vaikuntha) characteristics." (New York City, Dec 28, 1966)

The marginal living entities or jiva-souls are NOT called tatastha-sakti in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana as Prabhupada explains above.

The word "tatastha-sakti" refers to the marginal living entities (jiva-souls) in their FALLEN conditioned state in both the material creation and when dormant (inactive) in the (impersonal) Brahmajyoti.

Revatīnandana - "Srila Prabhupāda you very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the jiva-soul then goes into the brahmajyoti, he is considered still fallen. Still fallen. Does that means the whole brahmajyoti is composed of fallen souls? You see my question? If I go there, I'm a jīva-soul, and I go to the brahmajyoti I'm still fallen."

Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes."

Revatīnandana - "That means all jīva-souls there are also fallen souls?"

Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes." (Room Conversation Aug 17, 1971, London)

Srila Prabhupada - "Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition." (Letter to: Revatinandana, Los Angeles 13 June, 1970)

Srila Prabhupada - "When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness." (Letter to Revatinandana, Los Angeles 13 June, 1970)

The jiva-soul's ORIGINAL position and home in Goloka Vrindavana have the same bodily features as Krsna- 

sat, 

cit, 

ananda, 

vigraha, 

which means-

Eternity, 

Knowledge, 

Bliss, 

Form.

All together these qualities are seen as a perpetual bodily form, like Krsna's form.

The full potential and original feature of all marginal living entities (jiva-souls) is a two arm form like Krsna's Form.

Devotee – "Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?"

Srila Prabhupada – "Yes, human form. God is also human form. "Man is made after the shape of God." I think there is in the Bible. Is it not? So God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs."

Hari-sauri – "How do we understand, then, that there are peacocks and flowers and trees in the spiritual world? Are these not eternal forms?"

Srila Prabhupada – "[describing material form first]: Yes, they are more covered, just like if you cover your body with blanket, the hands and legs are invisible. But you are not the blanket. So the trees and plants, they are more covered. They are not in full manifestation. The human form is the full manifestation of the soul."

Hari-sauri - "They are covered in the spiritual world?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Not in the spiritual world. There that is voluntary. Some devotee wants to serve Krsna as flower; they become flower there. If I want to be a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Krsna, he becomes flower, voluntarily, and he can change his, from flower to human body. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Krsna as cow, he serves Krsna as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. It is inconceivable, yet a fact." (SB Canto 6 Ch 1 text 1-4 - Melbourne, May 20, 1975)

Srila Prabhupada - "So this material world is the taṭastha (conditioned characteristics), and the spiritual worlds are the "Personal" (Vaikuntha) characteristics." (New York City, Dec 28, 1966)

The word "tatastha-sakti" refers to the marginal living entities (jiva-souls) in their FALLEN conditioned state in both the material creation, and when dormant (inactive) in the impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman.

The "marginal living entities" (jiva-souls) ARE a collective of eternal jiva-souls without any beginning point, who are spread throughout the entire Spiritual Sky (both the spiritual world and material world) like the sun-rays (compared to the jiva-souls) emanate and surround the Sun-disc (compared to Krsna the Supreme Personality of Godhead and cause of all causes)

Those jiva-souls who have made the choice to enter the temporary decomposing material creation, can later, due to the frustration of material life, enter an inactive dormant state within the Spiritual Sky known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti or the impersonal aspect of the Spiritual Sky also called Brahman. 

The marginal living entities (jiva-souls) are known in both the material creation and the impersonal Brahmajyoti as tatastha-sakti but NOT in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana Prabhupada has explained above.

In other words, tatastha-sakti is the "conditioned fallen designation" of the marginal living entity that describes those jiva-souls who have entered the material creation and impersonal Brahmajyoti, but NOT those jiva-souls (marginal living entities) in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.

This is important to try and understand as the marginal living entity (jiva-souls) has many different names describing their position and condition, and tatastha-sakti is one of those names describing the jiva-souls "conditioned state" outside the spiritual world.  

The jiva-souls (marginal potency) were NOT created from a "clear sheet of consciousness" either as some big gurus wrongly claim because they have ALWAYS existed with any beginning nor will their existence end. 

This means the jiva-souls were never created because they have always existed as Bhagavad Gita As It Is "1983 correct edition" Chapter 2 Text 20 confirms-

"For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." (BG Ch 2 text 20)

And in Bhagavad-gītā (2.12)- 

"Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be." (BG 2.12)

Srila Prabhupada – "There are no new souls, new and old are due to this material body, but the jiva-soul is never born and never dies, so if there is no birth, how can there be new souls?" (Letter to Jagadisa dasa, 7/9/1970)

The jiva-souls may FALL to an "inactive" dormant state in the impersonal Brahmajyoti, but they certainly did NOT originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman Prabhupada has explained.

Even entering the impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman is entering an already fallen conditional state. And it is NOT permanent either, it is only a temporary relief for the jiva-souls, but can last for a "billions upon billions of life times of Lord Brahma" (His life time is 311 trillion 400 billion human years long)

But what is a trillion lifetimes of Lord Brahma in the face of infinity? It really has no meaning!

The fallen jiva-souls from the Vaikuntha planets and Goloka-Vrindavana who have taken material bodily vessel in the material creation, may eventually attempt to escape material suffering and enter the impersonal Brahmajyoti so they no longer experience the constant suffering and pain of being confined to a decaying material bodily vessel in the material world within the repeated cycle of birth and death of all material bodies.

As said above, the fallen jiva-soul can stay in the impersonal Brahmajyoti for a very, very, very long time, so long a time that some foolishly believe it is their home from where they originated from after emerging from there long sleep in the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

It should be made clear the dormant inactive aspect of the Brahmajyoti is NOT the original home of the jiva-souls, it is actually a fallen state they fall too.

The individual jiva-souls do not originate from anywhere including the impersonal Brahmajyoti because they have ALWAYS existed as part and parcel of the "marginal plane collective" of Krsna's sakti energies that are all individual jiva-souls spread throughout the entire Spiritual Sky.

The English word "generated" can be misleading if not properly understood because that word can mean a "beginning point," or an "origin point."

However, the jiva-souls have no origin or beginning point. This is because they have always existed and were NEVER created as Bhagavad Gita As It Is teaches us-

"For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." (BG Ch 2 text 20 "corrected 1983" edition)

The marginal living entities (jiva-souls) in their full potential, ARE a spiritual bodily PERSON (vigraha -form)

However, some time over eternity, due to choice (free will) some jiva-souls fell down from Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana to the temporary material creation.

The now embodied jiva-souls in their material vessels, eventually over time, became frustrated with the constant cycle of repeated birth and death and decaying nature of the material creation. 

Seeking freedom from that frustration in the temporary material creation, the fallen jīva-souls then attempt to find their liberation (freedom) from the continuous difficulty of material existence (the painful cycle of repeated birth and death) by attempting to end their existence.

They do this by endeavouring to extinguish their spiritual individuality and personality by appearing as a dormant none entity (inactive) bodiless individual unit or none conscious spark in the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

This can also be an almost dead motionless existence in the material atom too as Prabhupada has explained.

To a devotee of Krsna, attempting to extinguish one's individuality, personality and unique identity by merging into the "oneness" of the impersonal Brahmajyoti, is spiritual suicide.

However, entering the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, or in the dormant atom as an inactive almost dead unit, is also temporary because the nature of the jiva-souls is to ALWAYS be active in the service of Krsna in their original position.

Therefore, eventually the jiva-souls fall out of their "impersonal dormant prision" and AGAIN take birth in the material creation, within the 8 million 400 thousand species of life and again experience the suffering of repeated birth and death in the material world.

The jiva-souls then again evolve through the different species of life until they reach the rare human form of life, which can be the gateway out of the material creation if properly used under the guidance of a bonafide spiritual Master.

Sadly, for some who spent an enormous amount of time in the impersonal Brahmajyoti, when they eventually come out of that FALLEN condition, they foolishly believe the impersonal Brahmajyoti is their origin.

Even some big, big sannyasis, Gurus and devotee scholars foolishly believe the silly nonsense that the jiva-souls originate from the impersonal (inactive) Brahmajyoti or Brahman.  

Srila Prabhupada - "So our effort is to get out of this taṭastha, conditioned characteristics and enter the permanent Personal characteristics (Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana). That is called spiritual elevation." (New York City, Dec 28, 1966)

Being a "marginal" means free will and having an independent personality separate from Krsna's Personality.

Srila Prabhupada – "So everyone can know that independence means the marginal living entities (jiva-souls) can use it properly, or one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that is not independence, that is force." (Los Angeles, June 23, 1975)

Srila Prabhupada – "You have got little independence therefore you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God you have got independence, proportionately, therefore if he likes he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We CAN misuse that." (Mayapur, Feb 19, 1976)

Having "free will" is the constitutional make up of all "marginal living entities" (jiva-souls) that is ALWAYS part and parcel within their eternal character and personality in the spiritual worlds.

This means the jiva-souls can even choose to leave the Vaikuntha planets or Goloka-Vrindavana if they want, this is also what free will allows and if it didn't, then they have no free will.

This is why it is foolish that big, big sannyasis and gurus claim once entering the spiritual worlds the jiva-souls can never fall down again.

No, they CAN fall down again and again if they choose to do so! And such fall downs have nothing to do with Maya (material energy), it is simply free will.

The fact is, Maya or material energy does NOT exist in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana.

The choice to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana IS possible because Krsna allows love to be a "two-way" street, this means one can accept or reject Krsna if they choose to do so.

Srila Prabhupada  - "Free will means that you can act wrongly. That is free will. Unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then? If I act only one sided, that means I have no free will. Because we act sometimes wrongly, that means free will."

Hayagriva - "A man may know better but still act wrongly."

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, but that is free will. He misuses his. Just like a thief, he knows that his stealing, it is bad, but still he does it. That is free will. He cannot check his greediness, so in spite of his knowing that he is doing wrong thing—he will be punished, he knows; he has seen another thief, he was punished, he was put into prison— everything he knows, but still he steals. Why? Misuse of free will. Unless there is misuse of free will, there is no question of free will." (Talk with devotees on Rene Descartes)

Syamasundara - "But can we predict returning back home back to Godhead will be permanent? Can we predict that? Just like many prisoners leave the prison, however some do come back?"

Srila Prabhupada - "No, there is no permanent effect because we have got little independence. There is nothing permanent because you can misuse your independence at any time."

Syamasundara - "And some come back?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, otherwise there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do this, you can do that. "All right, you can do whatever you like."

Devotee - "Then he is so many times falling down, again and again, so will he eventually permanently come back?"

Srila Prabhupada - "He has got independence, therefore there is always the possibility he can misuse his independence, he CAN fall down. That's why when a man is released from the prison house, that does not mean permanently because he can come back again, the general law is NOT to come back, but if he likes, he can come back, otherwise what is the meaning of independence? Just like one becomes free from the prison house, naturally he should not go there again." (Talk with Syamasundara and devotees on Henri Bergson)

Even though Krsna has promised there is no return to the material creation once returning to the spiritual worlds.

The fact is, there IS return if the jiva-souls want to return as Prabhupada explains here-

Acyutananda – "In Bhagavad Gita Krsna says, once coming to the spiritual world, the jiva-souls never returns to the material world, so He can return?"

Srila Prabhupada – "If he likes he can return."

Guru-kripa – "How is it that one can become envious of Krsna?"

Srila Prabhupada – "You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God. God has got full independence, but you have got independence too, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, so if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown." (Mayapur Feb 19, 1976)

Devotee - "Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned jiva-soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back to the material world?"

Srila Prabhupada - "No! There is possibility, but he does not come IF he is intelligent. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it in again. So those who are going back to Godhead, they MUST become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead?" (Talk with Prabhupada,  Syamasundara Dasa and devotees)

Srila Prabhupada - ''As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice, Yes, Kṛṣṇa says, yes, you can go." Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Kṛṣṇa is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." It is free will." (Morning Walk Cheviot Hills May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada - "So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly or one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot fall down, that is not independence, that is force. Therefore Krsna says, yathecchasi tathä kuru. Now you do whatever you like." (Los Angeles, June 23, 1975)

Therefore returning back home back to Godhead is not necessarily permanent Prabhupada has explained above, that choice to stay with Krsna or go is ALSO the jiva-soul's choice too.

Therefore, it is NOT just a "one-way" decision that Krsna only makes, no, real loving exchanges can NEVER exist in a one-sided affair because there is ALWAYS "free will"

Krsna does NOT control the "surrendered" jiva-souls by force like a puppet master controls every movement of his puppets with the manipulation of strings.

Similarly, Krsna does NOT forcibly control or cleverly manipulate the jiva-souls and deny their free will and their natural constitutional right of voluntary self expression, individual contributions and having their own unique personality separate from Krsna's Personality. 

Srila Prabhupada - "Krsna does not want to become a lover by force, from the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?" (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.)

Such free will means the jiva-souls are "marginal" and that ALL decision making is a "two-sided" affair, that allows the jiva-souls to choose for themselves, EVEN if it means rejecting Krsna.

Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will. But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone either. That is not life." (Aug 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)

Having "free will" ALWAYS allows the jiva-souls to voluntarily choose their own unique contributions that they want to selflessly offer to Krsna in loving service. This is the real meaning of surrender. 

Without "free will" loving voluntary exchanges with Krsna are NOT possible.

Loving relationships can only work in a "two-way" exchange based on reciprocation and loving selfless service with two sharing loving exchanges.

In this way, the Kingdom of God is NEVER a domineering "one-sided" bullying dictatorship run by a forceful so called God.

No! Krsna is not like that at all.

The fact is, such a "one-way" impersonal master/servant dictatorship is actually a loveless relationship that only destroy one's real freedom of expression (free will) and having a sense of individual self and unique personality independent from Krsna's Personality.

How can a "lifeless puppet" in a puppet show express loving emotions when it is ALWAYS controlled and manipulated by the strings in the hands of the puppet master?

Similarly, how can the jiva-souls express loving emotions in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana if Krsna does not allow "free will" or individual independence and self expression which is the real meaning of being a "marginal living entity?

Surrendering to Krsna and His pure devotee is NOT impersonal like that, surrender does NOT mean giving up your intelligence, free will, individuality and the awareness of being an independent unique contributing free thinking PERSON you are eternally.

Srila Prabhupada - "Love means you take and you give also. Suppose if you love somebody and you simply take from him, but you don't give. Oh, do you think it is very good? No. It is not good. That is NOT love. That is exploitation. If I go on simply taking from you, and if I don't offer you anything, that is simply exploitation." (Lecture on BG Ch 9 text 2-5, New York, November 23, 1966)

Srila Prabhupada - "We have got the propensity to love. Love means somebody else. Love cannot be one or love cannot be executed only one, personally. There must be another one. I love somebody; somebody loves me, there must be lover, there must be beloved, and the transaction, then love." (Lecture on SB Canto 1 Ch 2 text 6, Delhi, Nov 12, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada - "The (impersonalist) philosophy is oneness. So how there can be love, one? Is it possible? Have you got any such experience? Love means one? No. Love means two. There must be two, the lover and the beloved. Kṛṣṇa is already lover. He's so lover of you that He's trying to get you back. That is Kṛṣṇa's attempt. "Please, My dear boy, or My dear friend, My dear servant..." (Lecture on SB Canto 2 Ch 1 text 3, Paris, June 12, 1974)

Devotee – Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we can have impure desire when we are already serving Krsna."

Srila Prabhupada – "Because you have got little freedom, it is one's desire."

Devotee – "But in the Srimad Bhagavatam it says that Krsna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krsna did not want us to come here, why are we here?"

Srila Prabhupada – "Yes, you forced Krsna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, “My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there” But he insists, “Oh, I must go. I must go.” “All right, you go at your risk and suffer. What can be done?" (June 25, 1974) 

Srila Prabhupada - "Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, therefore you have acquired the quality of your father,  so God does not interfere with your independence." (June 25, 1974)

Srila Prabhupada - "If you persist that “I must go and enjoy independently,” so God says, “All right, you can go.” This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy." (Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974)

Being the "marginal plane" (the jiva-souls), incorporates free will meaning there is ALWAYS voluntary loving exchanges, contributions and reciprocation going on between Krsna and the independent jiva-souls.*^*

Darwin's theory of evolution defeated by Srila Prabhupada.

A devotee challenges Srila Prabhupada, who attemps to answer his search for knowledge.

Śrīla Prabhupāda asserts that Darwin's theory of evolution is inconclusive and illogical. 

But Darwin's ideas are not the only theory of evolution. 

The Vedas explain that an evolutionary process DOES govern the progress of the soul. 

"We accept evolution," Śrīla Prabhupāda says, "but NOT that the forms of the species are changing. 

The material bodies are all already there as a blue print in material nature, but the jiva-soul is evolving through nature by changing bodies and by transmigrating from one body to another.

The defect of the evolutionists is that they have no information of the jiva-soul.

Devotee - "Darwin tried to show how the origin of living species could be fully explained by the purely mechanical, unplanned action of natural forces. 

By the process he called "natural selection," all the higher, complex forms of life gradually evolved from more primitive and rudimentary ones. 

In a given animal population, for example, some individuals will have traits that make them adapt better to their environment; these more fit individuals will survive to pass on their favorable traits to their offspring. 

The unfit on the other hand will gradually be weeded out naturally. Thus a cold climate will favor those who have, say, long hair or fatty tissue, and the species will then gradually evolve in that direction".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "The question is that in the development of the material body, is there any plan that a particular kind of body—with, as you say, long hair or fatty tissue—should exist under certain natural conditions? 

Who has made these arrangements? That is the question".

Devotee - "No one. Modern evolutionists ultimately base their theory on the existence of "chance variations".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "That is nonsense. There is no such thing as chance. 

If they say "chance," then they are nonsense. Our question remains. Who has created the different circumstances for the existence of different kinds of animals?"

Devotee - "For example, a frog may lay thousands of eggs, but out of all of them only a few may survive to adulthood. 

Those who do are more fit than the others. If the environment did not favorably select the fittest, then too many frogs.. "

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "Yes, frogs and many other animals lay eggs by the hundreds. A snake gives birth to scores of snakes at a time, and if all were allowed to exist, there would be a great disturbance. 

Therefore, big snakes devour the small snakes. That is nature's law. But behind nature's law is a brain. That is our proposition. 

Nature's law is not blind, for behind it there is a brain, and that brain is God. 

We learn this from the Bhagavad-gītā [9.10]: mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram. 

Whatever is taking place in material nature is being directed by the Supreme Lord, who maintains everything in order. 

So the snake lays eggs by the score, and if many were not killed, the world would be overwhelmed by snakes. Similarly, male tigers kill the cubs. 

The economic theory of Malthus states that whenever there is overpopulation, there must be an outbreak of war, epidemic, famine, or the like to curb it. 

These natural activities do not take place by chance but are planned. 

Anyone who says they are a matter of chance has insufficient knowledge".

Devotee - "But Darwin has a huge amount of evidence..."

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "Evidence? That is all right. We also have got evidence. Evidence must be there. But as soon as there is evidence, there should be no talk of "chance."

Devotee - "For example, out of millions of frogs, one may happen to be better adapted to living in the water".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "But that is not by chance! That is by plan! He doesn't know that. 

As soon as one says "chance," it means his knowledge is imperfect. 

A man says "chance" when he cannot explain. It is evasive. So the conclusion is that he is without perfect knowledge and therefore unfit for giving any knowledge. He is cheating, that's all".

Devotee - "Well, Darwin sees a "plan" or "design" in a sense, but..."

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "If he sees a plan or design, then whose design? As soon as you recognize a design, you must acknowledge a designer. If you see a plan, then you must accept a planner. That he does not know".

Devotee - "But the "plan" is only the involuntary working of nature".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "Nonsense. There IS a plan. 

The sun rises daily according to exact calculation. It does not follow our calculation; rather, we calculate according to the sun. 

Experiencing that in such-and-such season the sun rises at such-and-such time, we learn that according to the season the sun rises exactly on the minute, the second. It is not by whimsy or chance but by minute plan".

Devotee - "But can't you say it's just mechanical?"

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "Then who made it mechanical? If something is mechanical, then there must be a mechanic, a brain, who made the machine". 

Here is something mechanical (Śrīla Prabhupāda points to a Telex machine) Who made it? This machine has not come out by itself. It is made of iron, and the iron did not mold itself into a machine; there is a brain who made the machine possible. 

So everything in nature has a plan or design, and behind that plan or design is a brain, a very big brain".

Devotee - "Darwin tried to make the appearance and disappearance of living forms seem so natural and involuntary that God is removed from the picture. 

Evolutionary theory makes it appear as if combinations of material ingredients created life, and then various species evolved one from another naturally".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "That is foolishness. Combination means God. God is combining. Combination does not take place automatically. 

Suppose I am cooking. There are many ingredients gathered for cooking, but they do not combine together by themselves. 

I am the cooker, and in cooking I combine together ghee, spices, rice, dāl, and so on; and in this way, nice dishes are produced. 

Similarly, the combination of ingredients in nature requires God. Otherwise how does the moment arise in which the combination takes place? 

Do you place all the ingredients in the kitchen and in an hour come back and say, "Oh, where is my meal?" Nonsense! Who will cook your meal? You'll starve. 

But take help of a living being, and then we'll cook and we can eat. This is our experience. 

So if there is combination, then who is combining? They are fools not to know how combination takes place".

Devotee - "Scientists now say life arose out of four basic elements: carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "If the basic principle is chemicals, who made the chemicals? That question should be asked".

Devotee - "Isn't it possible that one day science will discover the source of these chemicals?"

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "There is no question of discovering: the answer is already known, although it may not be known to you. 

We know. The Vedānta says, janmādy asya yataḥ: [SB 1.1.1] the original source of everything is Brahman, Kṛṣṇa. 

Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate: 

"I am the origin of everything." [Bhagavad-gītā 10.8] 

So we know that there is a big brain who is doing everything. We know. The scientists may not know; that is their foolishness".

Devotee - "They might say the same thing about us".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "No, they cannot say the same thing about us. We accept Kṛṣṇa, but NOT blindly. 

Our predecessors, the great ācāryas and learned scholars, have accepted Kṛṣṇa as the origin of everything, so we are not following blindly. 

We claim that Kṛṣṇa is the origin, but what claim can the scientist make? 

As soon as he says "chance," it means that he has no knowledge. 

We don't say "chance." We have an original cause; but he says chance. Therefore he has no knowledge".

Devotee - "They try to trace back the origin by means of excavation. 

And they have found that gradually through the years the animal forms are evolving toward increasingly more complex and specialized forms, from invertebrates to fishes, then to amphibians, then to reptiles and insects, to mammals and birds, and finally to humans. 

In that process many species, like the dinosaurs, appeared, flourished, and then disappeared forever, became extinct. 

Eventually, primitive apelike creatures appeared, and from them man gradually developed,".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "Is the theory that the human body comes from the monkeys?"

Devotee - "Humans and monkeys are related. They come from the same...."

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "Related? Everything is related; that is another thing. But if the monkey body is developing into a human body, then why, after the human body is developed, doesn't the monkey species cease to exist?"

Devotee - "The humans and the monkeys are branches of the same tree".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "Yes, and both are now existing. Similarly, we say that at the time the evolutionists say life began, there were human beings existing".

Devotee - "They find no evidence for that".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "Why no evidence?"

Devotee - "In the ground. By excavation. They find no evidence in the ground".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "Is the ground the only evidence? Is there no other evidence?"

Devotee - "The only evidence they accept is the testimony of their material senses".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "But they still cannot prove that there was no human being at the time they say life originated. They cannot prove that".

Devotee - "It appears that in certain layers of earth there are remains of apelike men..."

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "Apelike men or manlike apes are still existing now, alongside human beings. 

If one thing has been developed by the transformation of another thing, then that original thing should no longer be in existence. 

When in this way a cause has produced its effect, the cause ceases to exist. But in this case we see that the cause is still present, that there are still monkeys and apes".

Devotee - "But monkeys did not cause men; both came from the same common ancestor. That is their account".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "We say that we all come from God, the same ancestor, the same father. 

The original father is Kṛṣṇa. 

As Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā [Bg. 14.4], sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya: 

"Of as many forms as there are,..." ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā: "I am the seed-giving father." So what is your objection to this?"

Devotee - "Well, if I examine the layers of earth, I find in the deepest layers no evidence..."

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "You are packed up with layers of earth, that's all. That is the boundary of your knowledge. But that is not knowledge; there are many other evidences".

Devotee - "But surely if men were living millions of years ago, they would have left evidence, tangible evidence, behind them. I could see their remains".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "So I say that in human society bodies are burned after death, cremated. So where does your excavator get his bones?"

Devotee - "Well, that's possible, but."

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "According to our Vedic system, the body is burned to ashes after death. 

Where, therefore, would the rascal get the bones?

Animals are not burned; their bones remain. But human beings are burned, and therefore they cannot find their bones".

Devotee - "I'm just saying that it appears, through layer after layer of deposits in the earth, that biological forms tend to progress from simple and primitive forms to more and more complex and specialized ones, until finally civilized man appears".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "But at the present moment both simple and complex forms are existing. 

One did not develop into the other. For example, my childhood body has developed into my adult body, and the child's body is no longer there. 

So if the higher, complex species developed from the simpler, lower species, then we should see no simple species. But all species are now existing simultaneously.

When I see all 8,400,000 species of life existing, what is the question of development? 

Each species exists now, and it existed long ago. 

You might not have seen it, but you have no proper source of knowledge. You might have missed it. That is another thing".

Devotee - "But all the evidence shows otherwise. Five hundred million years ago there were no land animals; there were only aquatics".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "That is nonsense. You cannot give a history of five hundred million years! 

Where is the history of five hundred million years? You are simply imagining. 

You say "historical evidence," but where is your evidence? You cannot give a history for more than three thousand years, and you are speaking about five hundred million. This is all nonsense".

Devotee - "If I dig far into the ground, layer by layer...."

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "By dirt you are calculating five hundred million years? It could be ten years. 

You cannot give the history of human society past three thousand years, so how can you speak of four hundred or five hundred million years ago? 

Where were you then? Were you there, so you can say that all these species were not there? 

This is imagination. In this way everyone can imagine and say some nonsense.

We accept evolution, but not that the forms of the species are changing. 

The material bodies are all already there, but the soul is evolving by changing bodies and by transmigrating from one body to another. 

I have evolved from my childhood body to my adult body, and now my childhood body is extinct. But there are many other children. 

Similarly, all the species are now existing simultaneously, and they were all there in the past.

For example, if you are traveling in a train, you find first class, second class, third class; they are all existing. 

If you pay a higher fare and enter the first-class carriage, you cannot say, "Now the first class is created." It was always existing. 

So the defect of the evolutionists is that they have no information of the soul. 

The soul is evolving, transmigrating, from one compartment to another compartment, simply changing place. 

The Padma Purāṇa says that there are 8,400,000 species of life, and the soul evolves through them. 

This evolutionary process we accept: the soul evolves from aquatics to plants, to insects, to birds, to animals, and then to the human forms. 

But all these forms are already there. They do not change. One does not become extinct and another survive. All of them are existing simultaneously,".

Devotee - "But Darwin says there are many species, like dinosaurs, that are seen to be extinct".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "What has he seen? He is not so powerful that he can see everywhere or everything. 

His power to see is limited, and by that limited power he cannot conclude that one species is extinct. 

That is not possible. No scientist will accept that. 

After all, all the senses by which you gather knowledge are limited, so how can you say this is finished or that is extinct? 

You cannot see. You cannot search out. The earth's circumference is twenty-five thousand miles; have you searched through all the layers of rock and soil over the whole earth? Have you excavated all those places?"

Devotee - "No".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "Therefore our first charge against Darwin is this: He says there were no human beings millions of years ago. That is not a fact. 

We now see human beings existing along with all other species, and it should be concluded that this situation always existed. 

Human life has always been there. Darwin cannot say there was no human life".

Devotee - "We don't see any dinosaurs existing today".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "You do not see because you have no power to see. Your senses are very limited, so what you see or don't see cannot be authoritative. So many people—the majority of people—say, "I don't see God." Shall we accept, then, that there is no God? Are we crazy for being devotees of God?,"

Devotee - "No, but dinosaur.."

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "But simply by dinosaurs being missing you cannot make your case. What about all the other species?"

Devotee - "Many, many others are also extinct".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "Say that I accept that many are extinct—because the evolutionary process means that as an earlier species gradually changes into a later species, the earlier vanishes, becomes extinct. 

But we see that many monkeys are still here. Man evolved from the simians, but simians have not disappeared. Monkeys are here, and men are here".

Devotee - "But still I'm not convinced. If we make geological investigations all over the world, not just here and there, but in many parts of the world, and in every case we find the same thing..."

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "But I say you have not studied all over the world. Has Darwin studied all the continents on this planet? 

Has he gone down into the depths of the seas and there excavated all the layers of the earth? No. So his knowledge is imperfect. 

This is the relative world, and here everyone speaks with relative knowledge.

Therefore we should accept knowledge from a person who is not within this relativity".

Devotee - "Actually, Darwin hit upon his theory because of what he observed on his voyage in 1835 to the Galapagos Islands, off the coast of South America. He found there species that exist nowhere else".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "That means he has not seen all the species. He has not traveled all over the universe. 

He has seen one island, but he has not seen the whole creation. So how can he determine what species exist and don't exist? 

He has studied one part of this earth, but there are many millions of planets. 

He has not seen all of them; he has not excavated the depths of all the planets. So how can he conclude, "This is nature"? 

He has not seen everything, nor is it possible for any human being to see everything".

Devotee - "Let's just confine ourselves to this planet".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - No, why should we? Nature is not only on this planet".

Devotee - "Because you said that on this planet there were complex forms of living beings millions and millions of years ago".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "We are not talking about this planet, but about anywhere. You are referring to nature. Nature is not limited or confined to this planet. 

You cannot say that. Nature, material nature, includes millions of universes, and in each and every universe there are millions of planets. 

If you have studied only this planet, your knowledge is insufficient".

Devotee - "But you said before that millions of years ago on this planet there were horses, elephants, civilized men...."

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "Yes, yes".

Devotee - "But from hundreds of different sources there is no evidence".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "I say they are existing now—men, horses, snakes, insects, trees. So why not millions of years ago?"

Devotee - "Because there is NO evidence".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "That doesn't mean you can limit your study to one planet. That is not full knowledge".

Devotee - "I just want to find out for the time being about..."

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "Why the time being? If you are not perfect in your knowledge, then why should I accept your theory? That is my point".

Devotee - "Well, if you claim that millions of years ago there were complex forms of life on this planet...."

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "Whether on this planet or on another planet, that is not the point. 

The point is that all species exist and keep on existing by the arrangement of nature. 

We learn from the Vedic texts that there are 8,400,000 species established. 

They may be in your neighborhood or they may be in my neighborhood—the number and types are fixed. 

But if you simply study your neighborhood, it is not perfect knowledge. 

Evolution we admit. But your evolutionary theory is not perfect. Our theory of evolution is perfect. 

From the Vedas we know that there are 8,400,000 forms of bodies provided by nature, but the soul is the same in all, in spite of the different types of material bodies. 

There is no change in the soul, and therefore the Bhagavad-gītā [5.18] says that one who is wise, a paṇḍita, does not see the species or the class; he sees oneness, equality. 

Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. 

One who sees to the bottom sees the soul, and he does not find there any difference between all these species".

Devotee - "So Darwin and other material scientists who have no information about the soul...."

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "They're missing the whole point".

Devotee - "They say that all living things tend to evolve from lower to higher. In the history of the earth...."

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "That may be accepted. For example, in an apartment building there are different kinds of apartments: first-class apartments, second-class apartments, third-class apartments. 

According to your desire and qualification, as you are fit to pay the rent, you are allowed to move up to the better apartments. 

But the different apartments are already there. They are not evolving. 

The residents are evolving by moving to new apartments as they desire".

Devotee - "As they desire".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "Yes, according to our mentality at the time of death, we get another "apartment," another body. But the "apartment" is already there, not that I'm creating the "apartment."

And the classes of "apartments" are fixed at 8,400,000. 

Just like the hotel-keeper: he has experience of his customers coming and wanting different kinds of facilities. 

So he has made all sorts of accommodations to oblige all kinds of customers. 

Similarly, this is God's creation. He knows how far a living entity can think, so He has made all these different species accordingly. 

When God thinks, "Come on, come here," nature obliges. 

Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi [Bhagavad-gītā 3.27]: 

Nature is offering facility. God, Kṛṣṇa, is sitting in the heart of the living entity as Paramātmā, and He knows, "He wants this." So the Lord orders nature, "Give him this apartment," and nature obliges: "Yes, come on; here is your apartment." This is the real explanation".

Devotee - "I understand and accept that. But I'm still puzzled as to why there is no geological evidence that in former times on this planet there were more complex forms".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "Why are you taking geological evidence as final? Is it final? Science is progressing. You cannot say it is final".

Devotee - "But I have excavated all parts of the world, and every time..."

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "No. You have not excavated all parts of the world".

Devotee - "Well, on seven continents".

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "Seven continents is not the whole world? You say you have excavated the whole world, but we say no, not even an insignificant portion. 

So your knowledge is limited. 

Dr. Frog has examined his three-foot-wide well, and now he claims to know the ocean.

Experimental knowledge is always imperfect, because one experiments with imperfect senses. 

Therefore, scientific knowledge must be imperfect. Our source of knowledge is different. We do not depend on experimental knowledge.

Now you see no dinosaurs, nor have I seen all the 8,400,000 different forms of life. 

But my source of knowledge is different. You are an experimenter with imperfect senses. I have taken knowledge from the perfect person, who has seen everything, who knows everything. Therefore, my knowledge is perfect.

Say, for example, that I receive knowledge from my mother: "Here is your father." But you are trying to search out your father on your own. 

You don't go to your mother and ask; you just search and search. 

Therefore, no matter how much you search, your knowledge will always remain imperfect,".

Devotee - "Hmm, and your knowledge says that millions of years ago there were higher forms of life on this planet?"

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "Oh, yes, because our Vedic information is that the first created being is the mostintelligent, the most intellectual person within the universe—Lord Brahmā, the cosmic engineer. 

So how can we accept your theory that intellect develops by evolution? 

We have received our Vedic knowledge from Brahmā, who is so perfect.

Dr. Frog has studied his three-foot well, his little reservoir of water. 

The Atlantic Ocean is also a reservoir of water, but there is a vast difference. Dr. Frog cannot inform us about the Atlantic Ocean. 

But we take knowledge from the one who has made the Atlantic Ocean. So our knowledge is perfect".

Devotee - "But wouldn't there be evidence in the earth, some remains?"

Śrīla Prabhupāda - "Our evidence is intelligence, not stones and bones. Our evidence is intelligence. 

We get Vedic information by disciplic succession from the most intelligent. It is coming down by śruti, hearing. 

Vyāsadeva heard from Nārada, Nārada heard from Brahmā—millions and millions of years ago. 

Millions and millions of our years pass, and it is not even one day for Brahmā. 

So millions and billions and trillions of years are not very astonishing to us, for that is not even one day of Brahmā. 

But Brahmā was born of Kṛṣṇa, and intelligent philosophy has been existing in our universe from the date of Brahmā's birth. 

Brahmā was first educated by God, and His knowledge has been passed down to us in the Vedic literature. 

So we get such intelligent information in the Vedas.

But those so-called scientists and philosophers who do not follow this system of descending knowledge, who do not accept knowledge thus received from higher authorities—they can't have any perfect knowledge, no matter what research work they carry out with their blunt senses. 

So whatever they say, we take it as imperfect.

Our method is different from theirs. They are searching after dead bones, and we are searching after living brains. 

This point should be stressed. They are dealing with dead bones, and we are dealing with living brains. 

So which should be considered better?" (Los Angeles, June 1972)