The jivatma or soul will NEVER fall down from Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavan as long as one "chooses" not to fall down! There is ALWAYS a choice and without that free will there can NEVER be love. Real love is a two-way street based on "reciprocation".

To say the jivatma or soul can never fall down from Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavan is true, as long as the jivatma "chooses" not to fall down!

This is the point Srila Prabhupada makes when explaining the jivatma ALWAYS "free will" in the Spiritual World.

Some say no matter what they do once reaching Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana, Krishna promises they will never again fall down to the material world.

Are devotees correctly understanding what Krishna and sastra really means here?

Yes, Krishna will ALWAYS keep His promise.

But what about free will and the God given ability for the jiva to also choose? Does that exist in the Spiritual World too? Can a soul make their own dependant choice?

Or does this mean a soul has no choice in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana once there?

To say one can never fall down is true, as long as the jivatma "chooses" not to fall down! This is Prabhupada's point.

Prabhupada tells us you CANNOT force love on others, you cannot say, once in Vaikuntha, you will never again come to the material world to attempt to enjoy separately from Vishnu or Krishna.

Frankly Krishna cannot choose for the jiva, the jiva MUST make that choose themselves as the individual independent jivatma they are eternally.

If we have no choice or free will, then there can be no love also because for one to express love depends on "free will and the ability to choose".

Because of this reasoning I fully reject the teachings of Srila Sridhar Maharaj and Srila Narayana Maharaj and all their followers on this subject as a misuderstanding of sastra.

They have no deep understanding of Spiritual life because they cannot understand "the choice" to stay or leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavan is also with the jivas and NOT just Krishna alone, it is reciprocal.

Real love or service is based on reciprocation, it is a two way relationship never a one way slave mentality relationship.

Who would want a nonsense God like that? More like a demons paradise.

If one is forced to stay in someone's association then that is not love, it is force, it is rape.

This is why Prabhupada has said less than 10% of jivas do choose to leave Vishnu or Krishna's association because the Lord does NOT rule with force, He always allows choices which means there can be genuine love.

Srila Prabhupada explains here -

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HatiYaOljJ8&feature=share

In Srimad Bhagavatam the fall of the jiva from Vaikuntha is explained clearly.

This is found in the "4th Canto Chapter 28 Text 53 of Srimad Bhagavatam" where the Supreme Lord is disguised as a brahmana -

''The brāhmaṇa continued: My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can't you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world''.

Srila Prabhupada- "When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves [become Krishna Himself or imitate Krishna], they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world."

Stila Prabhupada - "By misusing his independence, the living entity falls down from the service of the Lord and takes a position in this material world as an enjoyer — that is to say, the living entity takes his position within a material body." SB 4.28.53 purport:

https://vedabase.io/en/library/sb/4/28/53/

Srila Prabhupada clearly says we do not come from any inactive impersonal so called origin, we fall to there originally from Vaikuntha generally after entering the material World.

And after millions of births they seek freedom, and because the impersonalist yogi or Jnani does not know Krishna, they find impersonal liberation and temporarily enter or fall further to the impersonal Brahmajyoti or impersonal Brahman merging their individual being into the effulgence light of Krishna's Body.

Because the soul is there in the impersonal Brahmajyoti for so, so, so long, some think it is the souls origin but it is not.

Letter to: Revatinandana — Los Angeles 13 June, 1970

Srila Prabhupada - 'The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman.

Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition.

When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness.

So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he is fallen down’’.

Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada - ‘’These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970

Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” The Hare Krsna Happening record album New York 1966.

Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.

Srila Prabhupada - ''The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha, because God is eternal and His part and parcels, the living entities, they are also eternal. So that is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha, sädhana-siddha, krpa-siddha-there are different grades. They are all described in The Nectar of Devotion. So one can become sadhana-siddha". New York lecture on Caitanya-caritamrta, July 13, 1976.

Srila Prabhupada - ''By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can also become siddha. He can become AGAIN nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the "nitya-baddhas AGAIN nitya-siddha", to bring them. It is a difficult task'' - New York Caitanya-caritamrta, July 13, 1976.

Some say nothing is guaranteed in the Spiritual World at the end of the day.

Well, it is if YOU make the right choices.

The fact is, over 90% of souls have NEVER seen the material world or even know it exists.

Why is that?

Because THEY "chose to always" serve Krishna.

The fact is, only less than 10% mentioned by Prabhupada in the lecture above, "choose" to fall down and enter the material world.

90% choose to NEVER leave Krishna.

Compiled by Gauragopala dasa Acbsp (July 1972)

"ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE" working for Krishna, a devotee firmly believes.

Today in photo below, the entire world can see the dream and massive vision Srila Bhaktivenode Thakur saw in Mayapur across the empty fields 120 years ago

The fact is being a devotee ANYTHING is possible in service to Krishna, this is how Prabhupada trained us.

In the story of the Brahmana and the cobbler, the proud brahmana laughed at Naradha Muni when Naradha told the brahmana what Vishnu was doing in Vaikuntha - and that Vishnu was threading an Elephant through the eye of a needle!

The brahmana laughed and cursed Naradha calling him a crazy fool while the humble cobbler rejoiced in ecstasy saying how wonderful our Lord is and that He can do anything He wants and nothing is impossible for the Lord and His devotees to achieve.

Years ago the media laughed at us in Melbourne in early 1972 when 10 of us were living in a run down house in the back streets of St kilda, a slum back then, having no money and having oats flavored with orange peel for breakfast every morning and very little food at night, mostly small remanants from the offerings.

And during the day we were often being thrown in jail for chanting Hare Krishna on the streets by the Government because back then street gathering were illegal

We told the media back then -

"Things may seem difficult now but we have faith in Krishna that "anything is possible" as devotees of the Lord and servants of our Spiritual Master.

The sky is the limit!

We told them, one day we will have a massive 5 million dollar Temple for Radha and Krishna's comfort where the Temple room will be all solid Marble and even the Government will also help us and provide the funds to feed thousands of people around Melbourne"

Of couse the media people laughed at us and said we were dreaming.

The fact is, within a few years we DID get our beautiful Temple valued today at not five million dollars,  but rather 18 million dollars today!

And in 2016 the Premier of the State Government of Victoria came to the Temple and gave ISKCON 500,000 dollars to build a kitchen to feed prasadam to 10s of thousand of people around Melbourne.

LOL, 45 years earlier they were throwing us in Jail for chanting Hare Krishna and distributing Prabhupada's books

Yes without any doubts this proves "anything is possible".

As one congregational member once said to Prabhupada

-  "You have came here to the West with nothing but you had a dream of building a Temple for every City on the planet and now you have achieved that by opening Temples everywhere on the planet".

Srila Bhaktivenode also had a dream 120 Years ago saying that soon the greatest Temple on the Planet will be built at Mayapur dharm

He said this while while looking across the empty fields of Mayapur in the 19th Century.

He had faith that Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu can and will make ANYTHING for Krishna possible!

Like the story of the Brahmana and the cobbler and Lord Vishnu putting an Elephant through the eye of a needle.

Visit Mayapur like I did last year and be amazed that Krishna can make "ANYTHING POSSIBLE"

The humble motto of a Sankirtan devotee (preaching the message of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu) is in the poem below.

For all those who sincerely attempt to preach the glories of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu and help spread His message around the world, one WILL be tested.

Even though he/she is also having their own personal struggle within their heart against the temptations of lust and material attachment that Maya will try to use and exploit them with, one should NEVER give up attempting to serve their Spiritual Master even if one stumbles on the path and falls down.

Like a child learning to walk, one MUST get up and keep trying.

Remember, as soon as you attempt to serve and know Krishna, Maya WILL find in your heart and throw at you, the deep selfish desires hidden there, to see if it is REALLY service to Krishna you want.

This Soviet campaign we served 30 years ago was so massive that Maya threw EVERYTHING at us to see if it was really the Soviet devotees we wanted to help, or was there some hidden selfish desires for mundane sense gratification we really wanted.

Maya's duty is to test everyone who tries to know Krishna to make sure they are genuine.

And yes in some areas we did sadly fail but we NEVER gave up even in the face of failure.

In fact failure WAS the pillar of success, we prayed more intensely and sincerely "PLEASE my Lord use us in your plan, give us the strength to say no to temptation!

We never stopped praying to Prabhupada and attempting to free imprisoned Hare Krishna devotees in the Soviet Union.

This poem by an American President Theodore Roosevelt tells our struggle, our story -

"The credit really belongs to the men/women who are actually in the arena of preaching; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly, who errs and often comes up short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends themselves in a worthy cause and who, if at best in the end, knows the triumph of higher treatment and high achievements and who at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that their soul shall never be with those cold and timid ones who know neither victory nor defeat".

The block universe theory.

This claims that in the material universe, all time, past, present and future, all exist simultaneously.

The material universe contains everything that has ever happened and will happen at any time and at any place.

(From ABC Science)

(NOTE - The Vedas have a far more advanced more personal explanation of material time that recognises the soul or jivatma that is NOT material and therefore not from or part of the  material energy or creation.

The above mundane idea by Professor Kristie Miller does not understand that "life" is NOT originally part of the material universe.

Everything in the material universes are contained within the dreams of Maha Vishnu, He provides all material bodily vessels or containers for souls visiting this dead material creation, giving them all a bodily container from His dreams to experience the material universes.

Everything that there is in the material universes, is within His dreams, all bodily vessels are provided from Maha Vishnu so one can experience the material creation.

He is actually dreaming all these material universes

Only the 1/4 of all existence is the temperory always decaying material creation, the rest (3/4) is the perpetual ever youthful and fresh Spiritual Worlds of Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.)

The following is from ABC Science -

Your birth is out there in space-time. Your death, too, is in space-time. Every moment of your life is out there, somewhere, in space-time.

So says the block universe model of our world.

According to the block universe theory, the universe is a giant block of all the things that ever happen at any time and at any place. On this view, the past, present and future all exist — and are equally real.

How to build a time machine

What do we need to be able to do or understand to construct a functioning time machine? Watch as Catalyst examines the science of time travel.

How can this be?

The block has four dimensions: three spatial dimensions — say length, height and width — plus a fourth temporal dimension, or time. Or let's make it easier, by visualising the block model of our world as a three-dimensional rectangle, or cuboid.

Two of that cuboid's dimensions (let's say height and width) represent two of the universe's three spatial dimensions.

The third spatial dimension in the above diagram is left out — the length of the cuboid — and replace it with time. At one end of the cuboid is the big bang. At the other is the very last moment of the universe. Maybe it's a big crunch.

The cuboid is filled with every event that ever happens. Where these events are in the cuboid represents their location in space-time. All events, including your birth and death, and this very moment as you read these words, exist somewhere in the block.

In the block universe, time doesn't pass

It often seems as though where we are "today" is present, and "yesterday" is past, and "tomorrow" is future.

It also seems the present moment changes too — after all, tomorrow it will seem as though tomorrow is present, and yesterday it appeared yesterday was present!

So from our perspective, it appears that time flows or passes. But in the block universe model, time doesn't flow.

In other words, in a block universe, there is no specific present moment, and "past" and "future" moments are relative.

Think about the idea of "here". I am here. You, while reading this, can truly say "I am here", even though your "here" is different to mine.

What is time?

Hear about the physics and philosophy of time on The Philosopher's Zone on RN.

On the block universe model, talk about the "present" or "now" works just like talk of "here".

Remember last week when you said to your friend, who was late arriving for coffee, "now you're here"; or when, long ago, Caesar said, "I am now crossing the Rubicon"?

These claims are both true. That's because all it means to talk about the present, or now, is to talk about the place in time where you happen to be.

Since we are always located wherever we are (that's trivially true), everyone is located in the present, just as everyone is located at the place they call "here".

According to the block universe view, time or temporal relations of "earlier than" and "later than" exist. These relations hold regardless of where anyone is located.

So, suppose Bert the dinosaur is located earlier than Sally the dog. That relation between Bert and Sally holds, regardless of whether we are located earlier than Bert or later than Sally.

Bearing this in mind, it is possible to see how to make sense of the idea of past and future. Just as on this model "now" picks out whatever time I happen to be located at, "past" picks out any time (or events at those times) that are earlier than my location, and "future" picks out any times or events that are later than my location.

Does that mean we can travel in time?

If time is just another dimension, a lot like the spatial dimensions, does that mean we can travel in time?

The short answer is yes.

Of course, things are way more complicated than that. Travelling in time is clearly much more difficult than travelling in space. It might be very technologically costly to time travel, so perhaps it's not really something that, practically speaking, we can do.

But it's certainly possible.

We already know that travelling very fast will result in time dilation, so we know it's possible to travel into the future just by travelling very fast.

We can travel quite a way into the future if we can travel at some reasonable percentage of the speed of light. We also know how to travel into the past. We can do that by using wormholes, which are short cuts through space-time.

So, if I can travel in time, can I change the past?

No. That would create a contradiction, and there are no contradictions time is set in stone but all past, present and future exist simultaneously.

Remember, on the block universe model, the past is no different than the future or the present.

Everything is relative: what is past to you, will be future to someone else.

So if I travel back to the past I'm travelling to what is someone else's future. That means the past won't be any different, in kind, to the present.

What will happen if I travel to the past? I'll get out of my time machine and start walking around. I'll breathe the air and chat to people.

Obviously, this will have effects on the time I travel to. I'll tread on ants; I'll talk to people from that time; I'll pat horses, and feed donkeys and so on.

I'll act, in the past, in the sorts of ways I act in the present. But I won't be changing the past. Just as when I eat cornflakes instead of toast tomorrow I am not changing the future, I'm just making the future the way it is, when I travel to the past I don't change it, I just make it the way it is, and always has been.

Albert Einstein's special theory of relativity states time passes at different rates for people moving relative to each other.

What I do tomorrow makes tomorrow the way it is, and the way it always has been. What I do in the past makes the past time the way it is, and always has been.

If I travel to the past, I am part of the past.Importantly, I was always part of the past.

The events in the block are there for all time: they do not change. So, as a time traveller, it's not as though I suddenly appear at a past time. It's always been the case that I am located at that past time.

Nothing a time traveller does changes anything in the block. Instead, what the traveller does at any time makes that time, and later times, the way they are.

That means that we know that some things we attempt to do in the past, fail. We know that Hitler rose to power in the 1930s, so we know that if our time travelling future selves try to prevent this from happening, they fail.

But that doesn't show that our time travelling selves don't succeed in doing lots of things in the past. For all we know, the reason the past is the way it is, is in part due to the presence of time travellers.

Associate Professor Kristie Miller is the joint director for the Centre for Time at the University of Sydney.

NOTE - The Vedas have a far more advanced more personal explanation of material time that recognises the soul or jivatma that is NOT material and therefore not from or part of the  material energy or creation.

The above mundane idea by Professor Kristie Miller does not understand that "life" is NOT originally part of the material universe.

Everything in the material universes are contained within the dreams of Maha Vishnu, He provides all material bodily vessels or containers for souls visiting this dead material creation, giving them all a bodily container from His dreams to experience the material universes.

Everything that there is in the material universes, is within His dreams, all bodily vessels are provided from Maha Vishnu so one can experience the material creation.

He is actually dreaming all these material universes

Only the 1/4 of all existence is the temperory always decaying material creation, the rest (3/4) is the perpetual ever youthful and fresh Spiritual Worlds of Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.

Is the material universe, including all material bodies, continually repeating their existence?

There are those who believe the material universe is continuously repeating itself each time Maha Vishnu creates the material Brahmanda universes, but is that true?

Actually, it only "seems" that way because everything that is, and can be, already exists within the dreams of Maha Vishnu.

This means the material universe, including all bodily vessels, is continuously existing with an endless flow of individual jiva souls possessing those material bodies (passing through them)

Therefore it only "seems" the material universe is repeating itself when in actual fact it isn't.

This is because each material vessel or container eternally exists within the material dreams of Maha Vishnu, and is therefore a permanent "post" that "always" exists as a pathway for visiting souls to simply travels through while in the material creation.

Remember all these material bodily containers ARE coming from the dreams of Maha Vishnu.

It is therefore the souls that move through the journey of material existence in a material body experiencing its birth, youth, middle age, disease, old age decline and decay, and its death and rebirth if one fails in getting out of this temporary material mundane world of repeated birth and death.

Being in a material bodily vessel or container, is like one who travels on a pathway or road that leads to a destination. The fact is, these "pathways" have always existed that many others have experienced and many more will experience (the journey of material bodily containers or vessels)

This is what is really happening in the material creation instead of eternal repetition.

Material existence is always moving through time (past, present and future) from its creation to annihilation (birth, youth, disease, old age, death) of material bodies.

This process "seemingly repeats" itself again and again when the material universe is created again by Maha Vishnu but that is NOT what is going on.

The fact is, in reality the material bodily vessels are a permanent fixture or post existing "within" the dreams of Maha Vishnu that jiva souls simply move through, like one moves on a roadway or path.

Another way of looking at this -

Just like there always exists a fancy dress shop in society where one can go and rent costumes to expeience a particular play, similarly, every material bodily vessel conceivable exists in Maha Vishnu's "fancy dress shop of material costumes that one can rent if they desire" (From within His dreams that are available for all jiva-souls to rent).

Therefore each time the material universe is again created or manifests, a different batch of jiva-souls enters that pathway of material bodily vessels (costumes that cover the soul)

The fact is, like costumes in a fancy dress rental shop, all bodily vessels in the material universe are a permanent fixture within Maha Vishnu's dream of material creation.

The fact is, each material bodily "costume" is a permanent "post" within Maha Vishnu's dream of material existence that provides the experiences of birth, youth, disease, old age and death,

These material vessels or costumes always remains the property of Maha Vishnu's dreams

The cycle of material existence from creation to decay continues on eternally with the continuous flow of souls appearing in each material body at the beginning of that material bodies creation and experience its journey through to its annihilation or demise.

In other words, each time the universe is created and "seemingly" repeats itself, a different batch of soul takes the "post" or that material bodily vessel from Maha Vishnu's dreams.

Therefore, the next time around (the next material creation created by Maha Vishnu), all the exact same material bodily vessels will again exist, but with a new batch of jiva-souls in them.

This means within each material bodily vessel, exists a different soul playing that part, different from the previous occupant who played that exact same roll in the previous material creation.

This means the material universe "seems" to eternally be repeating it's self, but in actual fact it is fixed.

This is also called "Eternal repetition" meaning the MATERIAL universe exists again and again throughout all material time.

However, remember the "soul" is NOT the material bodily vessel.

The material body is only like a garment and the soul is a passenger in that garment or riding in the material body.

Three interesting Questions regarding the relationship between Krishna, Balarama, Narayana (Vishnu) and the living entities (jivas)

Three interesting Questions regarding the relationship between Krishna, Balarama, Narayana (Vishnu) and the living entities (jivas)

1. Does Srila Prabhupada use the term Supreme Personality of Godhead to refer to Lord Balarama as well as Lord Krishna or only to Lord Krishna, with Lord Balarama being the Personality of Godhead but without the "Supreme"?

2. Srila Prabhupada said that Lord Krishna never leaves Vrindavan. What about Lord Balarama? Does He leave Vrindavan?

3. Are Lord Krishna's special four qualities described in The Nectar of Devotion also Lord Balarama's -- or only Lord Krishna's?

Krishna's four special qualities are not fully manifested even in Lord Balarama or the Vishnu/Narayana form of Godhead, what to speak of the demigods or living entities.

Those four qualities are as follows:

(61) He is the performer of wonderful varieties of pastimes (especially His childhood pastimes).
 (62) He is surrounded by devotees endowed with wonderful love of Godhead.
 (63) He can attract all living entities all over the universes by playing on His flute.
 (64) He has a wonderful excellence of beauty which cannot be rivaled anywhere in the creation.

The 64 qualities are explained at end of this article

ANSWER part one

1. Yes, Balarama is also referred to as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and rightly so.

2. Krsna's leaving Vrndavana only takes place in bhauma-lila, not in the aprakata-lila in the spiritual world. And even though Krsna leaves Vrndavana in bhauma-lila, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura explains in his commentaries to the 10th canto that there is another layer (prakash) to bhauma-lila where Krsna never leaves and enjoys constantly with the Vraja-vasis. The same applies to Balarama.

3. Only Krsna manifests those four personality types.

ANSWER part two

In Rupa Goswami’s Laghu Bhagavatamrta, Balarama is categorized as a vaibhava prakasa form of Krsna. The two-armed flute bearing cowherd Gopal Krsna is svayam rupa, the orginal form of the Godhead in whom all other manifestations of himself are contained.

For the sake of his lila sometimes svaryam rupa Krsna expands into replica forms of himself, such as when picnicking among his friends along the banks of the Yamuna. At that time Krsna expanded into multiple replica forms of himself such that each cowherd thought that Krsna was sitting next to him and placing food in his mouth.

This type of expansion of svayam rupa Krsna, in which each from manifested is exactly the same as svayam rupa himself in both form and emotion, is termed prabhava prakasa.

However, when svayam rupa Krsna expands himself for lilas that require different emotional content, even while their forms are the same as svayam rupa himself, such expansions are termed vaibhava prakasa.

In the Vraja lila only these two kinds of expansions are required—many forms of Krsna of the same emotional make up and forms of differing emotional makeup.

While the prabhava prakasa forms are many—as many as there are gopas and gopis for Krsna to stand between—there is only one vaibhava prakasa in Vraja: Balaramaji.

One of the implications of the above, relative to Mahadyuti Swami's question, is that although Prabhupada does at times address Balarama as the "Supreme Personality of Godhead," as much as that terms refers to Svayam Bhagavan, it does not refer to Balarama. Balarama is not Svayam Bhagavan, but rather his expansion.

For example, In Tamala Krsna Goswami's doctoral thesis, he makes the case that Prabhupada's constant repetition of "Supreme Personality of Godhead" is a repetition of "krsnas tu bhagavan svayam." "Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam" is the paribhasa sutra of the Bhagavatam, the key to unlocking its tattva.

So to repeat it in English again and again is to almost mantrically, if you will, foster this impression onto the readers. But again, Balarama is not Svayam Bhagavan. However the two, Krsna and Rama, are so intertwined that wherever Krsna manifests, Rama is with him.

So the advent of the Supreme Personality of Godhead (Krsna) includes with it as an integral part of that appearance the advent of Balarama.

Following Sri Rupa’s lead in Laghu-bhagavatamrta, Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami explains that the vaibhava prakasa forms of Krsna differ from him in emotional content— bhavavesa-bhede nama ‘vaibhava-prakase’.

Sri Krsnadasa goes on to say that other than the difference in the color of their complexions, the two, Krsna and Balarama, are equal—varna-matra-bheda, saba—krsnera samana.

However, color and emotion are related. Thus the difference in the color of Krsna and Balarama’s complexions also speaks of their emotional difference from one another.

Krsna’s complexion is syama or indigo in color and in Indian aesthetic theory this color corresponds with the rasa over which he presides, srngara or madhurya-rasa.

Balarama’s complexion is whitish like that of the moon or a crystal, and this is the color—pandura—assigned to hasya rasa—humor—over which Balarama presides and which among the rasas is the best friend of sakhya-rasa.

Indeed, in the sakhya rasa center of Srimad Bhagavatam’s 10th canto 15th chapter we find Krsna’s lengthy glorification of Balarama amidst their friends spoken in the rapture of hasya rasa.

Both the crystal and the moon are agents of reflection. The crystal reflects the color of that which it is placed beside and the moon reflects the light of the sun.

As mentioned earlier, these two images from the natural world identified with Balarama’s complexion also tell us something about his emotional makeup: Krsna is sevya—served—Bhagavan, Balarama is sevaka—servitor— Bhagavan, causing us to reflect back upon Krsna, the object of Rama’s seva.

As such this Rama draws his light and life from Krsna/Visnu in ways that no other manifestation of the Godhead does.

In tattva, Balarama is the Godhead himself, but emotionally speaking he experiences himself as Krsna’s friend whose sakhya-rati is grouped together with dasya and vatsalya-rati.

That is, within the context of his sakhya-rati, Balarama sometimes expresses himself in service to Krsna and at other times acts as Krsna’s well-wisher.

In other words, in his emotional life Balarama’s sakkya-rati mediates between two otherwise incompatible emotions, servile and paternal love. And Rama also presides over all three of these relationships with Krsna——dasya, sakhya, and vatsalya.

Of these three, in Vraja his sakhya predominates, although examples of his dasya and vatsalya are not lacking. Outside of Vraja in Mathura and Dvaraka his vatsalya is more dominant, and outside of Krsna lila itself his dasya is prominent in his seva rendered to countless avataras of the Godhead.

Regarding the four unique qualities of Krsna, I would not say they also belong to Balarama, nor has this be stated anywhere else. Yes, Rama bears a flute in Vraja, as do many if not all cowherd boys.

But Krsna's flute is especially sweet because it alone can attract Radha. The same holds true for his form. And lila madhurya is said to refer to his rasa-lila, which is of a different order than that of Rama's rasa- lila with his gopis—raga as opposed to maryada respectively.

And Krsna's prema madhurya is such because it also reaches the hight of his intimate dealing with Radha.

ANSWER part three

Learned scholars in transcendental subjects have carefully analyzed the summum bonum Krsna to have sixty-four principal attributes.

All the expansions or categories of the Lord possess only some percentages of these attributes. But Sri Krsna is the possessor of the attributes cent percent.

And His personal expansions such as svayam-prakasa, tad-ekatma up to the categories of the avataras who are all visnu-tattva, possess up to ninety-three percent of these transcendental attributes.

Balarama and Krishna present different viewpoints, with Krishna's wisdom establishing Krishna to be the ultimate divinity. Balarama's constant association with Krishna makes him the protector and supporter of dharma.

Balarama is depicted as light skinned, in contrast to his brother, Krishna, who is dark skinned, Krishna in Sanskrit means dark. His ayudha or weapons are the plough hala and the gadā.

The plough is usually called Balachita. He often wears blue garments and a garland of forest flowers. His hair is tied in a topknot and he has earrings, bracelets and armlets and he is known for his strength, the reason for his name.

In the Jagannath tradition, one particularly popular in eastern and central regions of India, he is more often called Balabhadra or Baladeva. Balarama is one in the triad, wherein Balarama is shown together with his brother Jagannath (Krishna) and sister Subhadra (Lakshmi).

Jagannath is identifiable from his circular eyes compared to oval of Subhadra and almond shaped eyes of the abstract icon for Balarama. Further, Balarama's face is white, Jagannath's icon is dark, and Subhadra icon is yellow.

The third difference is the flat head of Jagannath icon, compared to semi-circular carved head of abstract Balarama. The shape of Balabhadra's head, also called Balarama or Baladeva in these regions, varies in some temples between somewhat flat and semi-circular

Lord Siva, who is neither avatara nor avesa nor in between them, possesses almost eighty-four percent of the attributes.

But the jivas, or the individual living beings in different statuses of life, possess up to the limit of seventy-eight percent of the attributes.

In the conditioned state of material existence, the living being possesses these attributes in very minute quantity, varying in terms of the pious life of the living being.

The most perfect of living beings is Brahma, the supreme administrator of one universe. He possesses seventy-eight percent of the attributes in full.

All other demigods have the same attributes in less quantity, whereas human beings possess the attributes in very minute quantity.

The standard of perfection for a human being is to develop the attributes up to seventy-eight percent in full. The living being can never possess attributes like Siva, Visnu or Lord Krsna.

A living being can become godly by developing the seventy-eight-percent transcendental attributes in fullness, but he can never become a God like Siva, Visnu or Krsna.

He can become a Brahma in due course.

The godly living beings who are all residents of the planets in the spiritual sky are eternal associates of God in different spiritual planets called Hari-dhama and Mahesa-dhama.

The abode of Lord Krsna above all spiritual planets is called Krsnaloka or Goloka Vrndavana, and the perfected living being, by developing seventy-eight percent of the above attributes in fullness, can enter the planet of Krsnaloka after leaving the present material body.

Lord Krishna. 64 qualities or 100%
 Vishnu Tattva. 60 qualities or ~93%
 Shiva Tattva. 54 qualities or ~84%
 Jiva Tattva. 50 qualities or ~78%

The Supreme Personality of Godhead / Krishna has all these fifty transcendental qualities in fullness as deep as the ocean.

In other words, the extent of His qualities is inconceivable.

(1) Beautiful features of the entire body
 (2) Marked with all auspicious characteristics
 (3) Extremely pleasing
 (4) Effulgent
 (5) Strong
 (6) Ever youthful
 (7) Wonderful linguist
 (8) Truthful
 (9) Talks pleasingly
 (10) Fluent
 (11) Highly learned
 (12) Highly intelligent
 (13) Genius
 (14) Artistic
 (15) Extremely clever
 (16) Expert
 (17) Grateful
 (18) Firmly determined
 (19) An expert judge of time and circumstances
 (20) Sees and speaks on the authority of Vedas, or scriptures
 (21) Pure
 (22) Self-controlled
 (23) Steadfast
 (24) Forbearing
 (25) Forgiving
 (26) Grave
 (27) Self-satisfied
 (28) Possessing equilibrium
 (29) Magnanimous
 (30) Religious
 (31) Heroic
 (32) Compassionate
 (33) Respectful
 (34) Gentle
 (35) Liberal
 (36) Shy
 (37) The protector of surrendered souls
 (38) Happy
 (39) The well-wisher of devotees
 (40) Controlled by love
 (41) all-auspicious
 (42) Most powerful
 (43) all-famous
 (44) Popular
 (45) Partial to devotees
 (46) Very attractive to all women
 (47) all-worship able
 (48) all-opulent
 (49) all-honourable
 (50) The supreme controller.

Besides all of the above-mentioned fifty qualities, Lord Krishna possesses five more, which are sometimes partially manifested in Lord Brahma or Lord Shiva. These transcendental qualities are as follows:

(51) Changeless
 (52) all-cognizant
 (53) Ever fresh
 (54) sac-cid-ananda (possessing an eternal blissful body)
 (55) Possessing all mystic perfections.
 Krishna also possesses five other qualities, which are manifest in the body of Narayana / Vishnu, and they are listed as follows:
 (56) He has inconceivable potency.
 (57) Uncountable universes generate from His body.
 (58) He is the original source of all incarnations.
 (59) He is the giver of salvation to the enemies whom He kills.
 (60) He is the attractor of liberated souls.

Besides these sixty transcendental qualities, Krishna has four more, which are not manifested even in the Vishnu / Narayana form of Godhead, what to speak of the demigods or living entities. They are as follows:

(61) He is the performer of wonderful varieties of pastimes (especially His childhood pastimes).
 (62) He is surrounded by devotees endowed with wonderful love of Godhead.
 (63) He can attract all living entities all over the universes by playing on His flute.
 (64) He has a wonderful excellence of beauty which cannot be rivaled anywhere in the creation.

The Absolute Truth is anandamaya (desiring to increase His joy), hence from His original form He expands and becomes many.

These emanations from the Supreme Person are of two categories: full expansions and partially manifested expansions.

The Lord's various full and partial expansions and the Lord Himself simultaneously co-exist, only appearing to manifest under the influence of time.

These expansions of the Supreme Being are known as Vishnu-tattva, and they are also Supreme Absolute Truth. While non-different from the Lord, the Vishnu-tattvas all accept their own role as Godhead in the mood of Servitor to the "original" Supreme Being.

This relationship is the foundation of Vedic monotheism, which encompasses the inconceivable, absolute personal nature of the original Godhead.

The Supreme Being possesses two other expansive qualities known as Shiva-tattva and jiva-tattva. Together with Vishnu-tattva, these three qualities are representative of the Absolute Person's internal, external and marginal energies.

The Lord has expanded Himself as Lord Shiva and Lord Brahma, and we, the living entities, are also expansions. Like us, Lord Brahma is also jiva-tattva.

Lord Siva is between Vishnu-tattva and jiva-tattva. And Lord Visnu is Vishnu-tattva. Vishnu-tattva, via media, and jiva-tattva - they are all expansions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krsna.

Conclusion.

Brahmananda das - "Prabhupada designed the Krishna and Balarama Deities, the mudra. He made a drawing and gave it to Baradraj to have it made in Jaipur.

There is no Krishna Balarama Deity like this with Balarama resting His arm on Krishna’s shoulders. There is no Deity like that, Prabhupada made that design.

And then he would joke about it, “Who is stronger, Krishna or Balarama?” Bala means strength, He is the strong one. And everyone would say “Balarama.”

Then Prabhupada said, “Then why Balarama is resting on Krishna? This means Krishna is stronger.”

(From the "Following Srila Prabhupada" DVD series)

Compiled by Gauragopala dasa Acbsp.

The original position of the soul

The living entities falling down to the material world - best explanation of all. The living entities "fall down into this material world" from Vaikuntha and NOT the Impersonal Brahman. Srila Prabhupada - ''Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness''. An in depth explanation worth reading. The following Conversation took place in Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974 between Srila Prabhupada and his disciples. Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krishna, we have a perfect relationship with Krishna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we’re already serving Krishna?” Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.” Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…” Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire. Devotee – “In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?” Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. You forced Krishna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, “My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there.” But he insists, “Oh, I must go. I must go.” “All right, you go at your risk. That’s all. And you suffer. What can be done?” Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, almighty—therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence. If you persist that “I must go and enjoy independently,” so God says, “All right, you can go.” This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy”. End of quote Question - Is there a place in the Spiritual World from where we can never fall down from? Answer - It is not based on a "place you can never fall down from" that will keep you in Vaikuntha, it does not work that way because it is based on ‘’your choice’’ and nothing else. If you were forced to stay there then how can there be love? Remaining in Vaikuntha "eternally" is based on the conscious awareness of what the devotee wants as a unique selfless individual "loving" personal servant of the Lord. Even in such selfless emotions of loving devotion, the jivatma NEVER loses that unique ability of free will and self expression where one is "personally" always aware they are choosing how to selflessly serve Krishna or the servants of the servants of Krishna. The fact that one does not fall from God's personal Kingdom is your responsibility, not Gods, it is your choice, it is your free will to choose and nobody else including Krishna. The fact is 90% of all living entities do not fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana because they "choose not to". That "choice" is always with the marginal living entities or jiva. How is this so? The jivatma soul or marginal living entity has 78% of Krishna's quantities which puts them in the realm of having "a sense of independence, identity, personality, individuality and the ability to choose. This means the jivatma has the ability to agree or not agree even with Krishna. The sense of individuality allows the jivatma the right to choose Krishna or choose to be separate from Krishna. Remember Maya and the material energy does not exist in Vaikuntha so that is unknown to the jivatma. However, "free will, individuality, having independence, experiencing a unique sense of individual self worth and the ability to express all these qualities DOES exist in the makeup of the jivatma in Vaikuntha. And if all those abilities are taken away, then we lose the ability to give and accept love, we become no better than a stone or mindless robot. Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, almighty—therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence”. Conversation in Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974 between Srila Prabhupada and his disciples. No one can force you to stay in Vaikuntha, that choice must "always" be the jivatmas (our choice). For love to truly exist with the jiva-tattva (jivatma) we MUST have the the right to choose to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana at anytime. And the fact is a small minority do choose to leave, regardless of how some have interpreted past Sages and Acharyas. The fact is to say those who enter Vaikuntha will "never ever again fall down" IS true - ‘’for those who choose NOT to fall down". In other words, if the jiva wants to leave they certainly can. To make a blanket comment that "not even the leaves fall and leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana" seems to not take into consideration the free will of the jiva tattva. These comments from past Sages and Acharyas that the jiva never falls down once in Vaikuntha may have been said for many reasons, to give faith among aspiring devotees and neophytes to encourage them to understand that their constitutional position IS to NEVER ‘’choose’’ to leave Vaikuntha and NEVER ‘’desire’’ to enter the material world once they are in or returned to Vaikuntha. However to come to the material world is ultimately the jiva tattva's choice and Krishna does not interfere even though Krishna has promised there is no return to the material creation. The fact is there is if the jiva tattva wants to return, this is Prabhupada's point here - Acyutananda – “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns. He can return?” Srila Prabhupada – “If he likes he can return”. Guru-kripa – “How is it that one can become envious of Krishna?” Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976) End of quote For those who believe past Acharyas and sages meant that ''no one can ever fall down'' from Vaikuntha meant to address all souls in Vaikuntha, have not understood the variety of living entities in Vaikuntha and it is only a small minority of ONLY jiva tattva souls who do chose to leave. They have NOT understood there are many different inhabitants of Vrindavana who never fall down by choice such as the Sakti Vishnu tattvas who are expansions of Krishna, they never fall down because they ARE simultaneously eternal associates and Krishna experiencing Himself in unlimited extended ways. So for them, choice does not exist. And for over 90% of jiva tattva souls who do have the ability to choose, they also never fall down because they NEVER "choose" to fall down. Devotee - “Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back”. Srila Prabhupada - “No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, “Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,” I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become. . . .” End of quote However, there will always be a very small minority of only the jiva tattvas (not the Sakti tattva or Vishnu tattva "direct expansions"of Krishna) who misuse their ability to "choose" and leave if they desire. Free will is eternal even in Goloka and in fact without our ‘sovereignty as a living being’ to either forget or remember Krishna, then we would not have any individuality, no independent personality and no ability to love, we would be mindless ''yes'' drones like machines in a factory. Srila Prabhupada - “Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krishna says, yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.” Los Angeles, June 23, 1975 Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976) End of quote Krishna has many different energies. Jiva is one, Matter is one, the consorts of the Lord are one. Technically we are all Sakti tattva however there are different categories, we are the jiva tattva living entities known as the the ''marginal energy'' while others are Sakti tattvas and part of the ''internal potency or energy''. The Sakti tattva and Vishnu tattva Personalities are ''the eternal inhabitants of Vrindavana who can never fall down or choose to forget Krishna because THEY are direct expansions of Krishna Himself and part of His internal energies or potency of unlimited expansions and associates. For example the Pancha Tattva are a combination of Sakti tattva and Vishnu tattva Personalities with only one being jiva tattva. Srila Prabhupada - ''Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya, Śrī Nityānanda, Śrī Advaita, Śrī Gadādhara, and Śrīvāsādi. Śrīvāsādi means jīva-tattva. The jīva-tattva, śakti-tattva, viṣṇu-tattva, these are all tattvas. So Pañca-tattva. Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya is the supreme tattva, Kṛṣṇa. Śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nahe anya. We are worshiping Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. So Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya is Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa combined''.Lecture on CC Adi-lila 7.5 -- Mayapur, March 7, 1974 End of quote Sakti tattva is not exactly Vishnu Tattva even though Sakti tattva is also called Sakti-Vishnu-tattva. The correct understanding is that all of Krsna’s energies are under the broad category of Sakti-tattva. Srila Prabhupada - ''There are viṣṇu-tattva, jīva-tattva and śakti-tattva. Viṣṇu-tattva is the Supreme Absolute Truth, jīva-tattva is part and parcel, and śakti-tattva is the energy of God''. Lecture on SB 1.5.15 -- New Vrindaban, June 19, 1969 Sakti tattva the energy of Krishna are eternally occupied with their service to the Lord, such expansions have only the desire to please Krishna or His Vishnu expansion, they can never be covered by Maya and their concept of free will and independence is only to please Krishna or Vishnu as they are indirect and direct expansions of Godhead. Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana are made up of many Sakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas such as gopis, gopas and many, many others, there is also jiva tattvas (part and parcels) playing many roles in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrndavana as well, just like the Sakti Vishnu tattvas are. In Goloka Vrindavana no one knows who is who, who is jiva tattva, who is sakti tattva or who is jiva tattva, they do not even know this little boy Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the cause of all causes. As already explained, Sakti Vishnu tattvas can never fall down. Also the jiva tattvas can NEVER become Sakti tattvas or Vishnu tattvas. And jiva tattvas can never lose their seperate individual independence from Krishna even though technically all living entities are Sakti tattva expansions of Krishna that are fully dependent on Krishna like the sun rays are expansions that emanate from the Sun. Even though this is the case of being part and parcel of the Lord, the jivatma or jiva tattva still has "their own" sense of being a separate independent thinking individual from Krishna. Srila Prabhupada - ''The words bṛhate namas te have been explained by Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura: bṛhate śrī-kṛṣṇāya. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Kṛṣṇa the maintainer of all and cause of all causes. We are "separate and none separate" from Krishna simultaneously. There are many tattvas, such as viṣṇu-tattva, jīva-tattva and śakti-tattva, but above everything is the viṣṇu-tattva, which is all-pervading. This all-pervading feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is explained in Bhagavad-gītā (10.42), wherein the Lord says: athavā bahunaitena kiṁ jñātena tavārjuna viṣṭabhyāham idaṁ kṛtsnam ekāṁśena sthito jagat "But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe." Thus Kṛṣṇa says that the entire material world is maintained by His partial representation as Paramātmā. The Lord enters every universe as Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu and then expands Himself as Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu to enter the hearts of all living entities and even enter the atoms. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (Bs. 5.35). Every universe is full of atoms, and the Lord is not only within the universe but also within the atoms. Thus within every atom the Supreme Lord exists in His Viṣṇu feature as Paramātmā, but all the viṣṇu-tattvas emanate from Kṛṣṇa. As confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā (10.2), aham ādir hi devānām: Kṛṣṇa is the ādi, or beginning, of the devas of this material world—Brahmā, Viṣṇu and Maheśvara. Therefore He is described here as bhagavate bṛhate. End of quote So there are differences between different energies or expansions of the Lord. We the jiva tattva (jivatmas) are also expansions, the jiva tattvas have minute independence and "a sense of individual self that thinks separately from Krishna as a unique individual" and are called the ''marginal energy'' or jivatma. The jivatma (jiva tattva) is different from direct expansion like the Sakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas but both can be gopis, cowherd boys in Krishna lila. Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana also have so many expansions of Krishna that it is mind boggling. The jiva tattva can play the role of a gopa or gopi like a Sakti tattva and Vishnun tattva can but they can NEVER be Sakti Vishnu tattva who is Krishna Himself expanded as multiple personalities. We (jiva tattva) can also choose, if we desire, play the roles Sakti vishnu tattvas also play however, we ALWAYS remain jiva tattva. The jiva tattvas, unlike Sakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas, can 'choose' to forget Krishna and enter the mahat tattva or material creation of Maha Vishnu as nitya baddha and think they are an independent god. Vishnu tattvas and Sakti tattvas do not do that because they are direct expansion of Krishna and only carry out the will of God. Our eternal constitution position and eternal spiritual body is already there in Vaikuntha waiting for us to wake up from this material dream and return back home back to Godhead. Just like Jaya and Vijaya's eternal possition as gatekeepers of Vaikuntha is always there waiting for their return from falling down into the material creation. In Vaikuntha there is no concept of past and future time, only the ''individual awareness" of the "eternal presence'' of Krishna and being a dependent unique person and sense of the "self" that eternally exists there in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana. This is how we know all the universe is not ''all'' one with an all pervading consciousness that plays out different roles while contained in different vessels, except for Krishna and His unlimited expansions, we are all individual jiva tattvas. Therefore we never lose our independence and sense of self as an individual identity and being a "person" Even a blade of grass, leaf, tree, clouds, rain drops, grains of sand and dirt or chair is a Person in Goloka. Everything their is alive! Of course in the material world our individuality becomes covered by many different species of material bodies but underneath it all the jivatma or jiva tattva is there as an individual. Therefore it is very important we understand we have a "sense of independence and individuality as jiva tattva" this is what "marginal" means that makes us a unique "person" To say you can never leave Goloka once there is true for most but not all because we can choose to miss use our free will. Without having that choice, Prabhupada says we are no better than a stone, we would not be able to give love or receive love. And yes, many devotees have found this subject’s true meaning in Sastra very difficult to understand and therefore call it inconceivable rather than attempting to understand it or believe others understand it. Understand what? That making "choices" (that allows one to increase their “unique” individual expression of love for Krishna) is always with the marginal living entity even in Vaikuntha and to take that ability (the sense of self) away from the marginal living entity in Vaikuntha, the jivatma loses the individual ability to “give and accept love”. This is because without free will we lose our sense of independence as a person of having a unique separate identity from all of other individual jivatmas, Vishnu tattvas, and Krishna Himself. These are important points to understand. We, the jivatma souls are independent thinking souls eternally but simultaneously part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna the cause of all causes meant to please the Lord as the unique “persons”. Therefore, no one can force the jivatma to stay in Vaikuntha, that choice MUST be eternally yours (the jivatma) Only Vishnu tattvas and Vishnu shakti tattvas never fall down from Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana because they are direct expansions of Krishna playing different roles in Krishna's pastimes and have 93% of Krishna’s qualities making them direct expressions of Krishna Himself. Some Vishnu shakti tattvas are gopis including Radharani, gopas, parents, lovers etc many, many different personalities. Krishna’s brother Balarama is Vishnu tattva and many others are too playing different parts in Krishna Lila just like in Lord Caitanya’s pastimes where many are Vishnu tattva playing a roll also. It is ONLY these residents of Vrindavana who NEVER fall down into forgetfulness. And the fact is, more than 90% of jivatma’s also “choose” to stay in Vaikuntha and never enter the material world seeking selfish desires. All jiva tattvas have only 78% of Krishna’s qualities can leave if they choose. To be in Vaikuntha does not always guarantee you will stay there forever and never enter the material world. Although as already explained 90% never choose to forget Krishna because that is their desire and expression of free will. Past Sages and Acharyas say the jivatma can never fall down once they are in Vaikuntha. Yes, the fact is the jivas are not suppose to leave or fall from Vaikuntha and most never do, but Prabhupada has further explained this subject matter also and has said that sadly some jivas DO choose to leave or fall from Vaikuntha however, he explains it is only a very small minority who foolishly make that choice, less than 10%. Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?” Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”. Los Angeles, June 23, 1975. Let's clear one thing up, falling into the material world has absolutely nothing to do with maya or the material energy because maya does not and can not exist in Vaikuntha. The jivatma’s do not even know Maya or the material energy exists, however, they do have "free will and the ability to choose" and are aware that this quality is “eternally” part and parcel of the jivatma’s makeup and exists in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana. We do not lose our independence and sense of individual identity once we enter Vaikuntha, we are eternally independent living entities but depend of Krishna Personally or His many Vishnu expansions who provide all facilities in the material creation. In other words we are always independent living entities but always depend on Krishna just like the Sun rays cannot exist without the Sun. The fact is because we can "choose to be with Krishna or reject Him", then there can be increasing endeavors of loving exchange due to “choice”. This is one of the reasons why the material universe was created - to give "reality" to that choice of rejecting and forgetting Krishna, so the living entity can go to another place outside Vaikuntha if they choose, to try and enjoy without being conscious of Krishna’s existence (that place where one can forget Krishna is called the material creation) The marginal living entity or jivatma also must have the free will to choose Krishna instead of just being in Vaikuntha without no choice. The point made here is the position of the jivatma in Vaikuntha must be voluntary. Who you love and who you choose to serve MUST be voluntary. Many cannot understand these facts about the importance of free will, individuality, identity and the sense of self worth of being a unique person who can give selfless ever increasing love or service in their own way to Krishna. These qualities are based on the importance of the individual's ability to have "choices" within their experiences as a individual person. Once again to be truly free there must be the choice of Vaikuntha or its so called opposite where Krishna can be forgotten, the "material creation" Without the jivatma’s being able to choose Krishna or not there can never be love, Prabhupada has said to force love is called rape. Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking”. Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire? Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”. Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ” Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C. It takes only free will to live separately from Krishna and this choice has nothing to do with maya or material energy as explained above - it is simple free will that allows us to be a independent person and enter the material creation too. To do that one is given material bodies, a subtle and gross body that covers the spiritual form. In the material world, the jivatma has to put up with the gross material body always being in a state of decay and then eventually being forced to take another gross material body. Also once in the material creation, you're on your own terms, you are responsible therefore karma begins as soon as you leave Vaikuntha. No jivatma souls originate from the dormant Brahmajyoti, they often fall to it but have not come from there as Srila Prabhupada tells us. Letter to: Revatinandana — Los Angeles 13 June, 1970 Srila Prabhupada - 'The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he is fallen down’’. Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973) Srila Prabhupada - ‘’These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970 Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna Happening record album New York 1966. Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C. Srila Prabhupada - ''The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha, because God is eternal and His part and parcels, the living entities, they are also eternal. So that is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha, sädhana-siddha, krpa-siddha-there are different grades. They are all described in The Nectar of Devotion. So one can become sadhana-siddha. By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can also become siddha. He can become AGAIN nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas AGAIN nitya-siddha, to bring them. It is a difficult task'' - New York lecture on Caitanya-caritamrta, July 13, 1976. Srila Prabhupada - 'This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”. SB 4.29.83 Purport. Once, an Indian political leader, Syamasundara Chakravarti, asked Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada. “Why has the Lord granted such freedom to the jiva?” Srila Bhaktisiddhanta told him, “”You are fighting for freedom. Don’t you know the value of freedom? Devoid of freedom, the soul is only matter.” Freedom offers us the alternative to do right or wrong. Once, Gandhi told the British authorities, ”We want freedom.”‘ They replied, “You are not fit to have self-government. When you are fit, we shall give it to you.” But finally, he told them, “We want the freedom to do wrong.” So, freedom does not guarantee only acting in the right way; freedom has its value independent of right and wrong. Free will is only absolute with the Absolute Truth. Because we are finite our free will is infinitesimal. The possibility of committing a mistake is there. Our first choice was to dominate and so, gradually we have entered the world of domination. As a result of this first action, everything else has developed. So, in different ranks the species have been divided from the demigods down to the trees and stones. And watery bodies, gaseous bodies, anything that we find here has evolved in that way. The activating principle in any form of embryological development is the soul, and from the soul, everything has evolved.” End of quote Srila Prabhupada makes our "original position" with Krishna very clear. And yes, maya cannot be blamed for our fall down from Vaikuntha in any way because she, in her role as the personification of material energy, does NOT exist in Vaikuntha, nothing material can exist there. But free will does and always will exist in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana. Therefore "we" are responsible for our choices and actions. Srila Prabhupada on the other hand chose to come here to serve Krishna's plan to attract the fallen souls in the material universe back home back to Godhead. Many devotees also come here to preach Krishna Consciousness. There are three ways to come here, as a devotee who preaches, as a devotee who plays the part as a great demon like Jai and Vijai the gatekeepers of Vaikuntha. And those who "choose" to just forget and give up Krishna's association and do their own thing. Also one can never have material desires in Vaikuntha because Maya does NOT exist there. Maya cannot be blamed for tempting us and causing our fall down from Vaikuntha in any way because she, in her role as the personification of material energy, does NOT exist in Vaikuntha. Nothing material can exist there. But ''free will'', ''independence'' and ''individuality'' does and always will exist in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana. We therefore leave because of free will and the ability to choose to accept or reject Krishna. As an individual ''person'' endowed with independent thought and identity, we are able to make such chooses. What does the majority of people think being a "PERSON" really means after you surrender to Krishna? Do they think it is becoming some "yes man or women" of Krishna in His Kingdom where one becomes a mindless none thinking denier of the "individual self" who has unique qualities that makes you an individual? Do they think surrender means we give up our individuality? Sadly, so many have no idea what real "personalism" is which is a word tied to individuality. The idea of "don't think just do what your told" is impersonalist nonsense because it denies ''you'' to use your own abilities and talents to contribute something unique to your personality that no one else may have. So no, "you" DO NOT give up your independent individuality and sense of self worth and esteem to be fully surrendered and "dependant" on Krishna, maintaining that individuality is part of surrendering. In fact in Goloka your individual independence and dependence on Krishna go together side by side increasing simultaneously at the same time and is always expanding in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana. It takes spiritual intelligence to understand what real surrender is, and that includes understanding ‘’you’’ are eternally an independent individual person with your own sense of "individual self" separate from all other individual jiva souls. Although Krishna always accompanies all jiva tattva souls as a friend and witness to the jivatmas individual choices and actions because we are eternally parts and parcels of the Lord. Please read the above essay again, it explains we are all "unique individual persons" who are endowed with independent qualities allowing one to eternally give "THEIR OWN" best to Krishna. The jiva tattva is not part of an "all one programmed none thinking impersonal collective" within God's Kingdom, no, that is a description of what hell is like. Impersonalism means believing that in Vaikuntha we give up our independence and individuality and become part of an "all one collective consciousness" Living an impersonal existence is to be devoid of individual thought that does not allow personal contributions that makes ''you'', who you really are, as a person, as Krishna's eternal servant, as a unique living entity who can contribute the best of ''their'' individual abilities to Krishna. On the other hand personalism means the individual jiva must be able to grow and flourish as an independent living being giving their own personal contributions of devotional service to Krishna. To ''deny'' the jiva tattva's ''individuality'' and ''independent sense of identity'' is the hell "real" Krishna devotees fear. Many devotees in ISKCON and the Gaudiya Math have an impersonalist idea about what Vaikuntha is like and do not even know it. Only when the living entity desires not to be with Krishna do they enter the material world and realize Maya's existences. Paramahamsa - “But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return. Srila Prabhupada - “There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is”. Paramahamsa - “If we want”. Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”. Paramahamsa - “So we can come to the spiritual world and return?” Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”. Paramahamsa - “Fall down?” Srila Prabhupada - “Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go.” Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness. Therefore "we" are responsible for our choices and actions. So the conclusion is Srimad Bhagavatam explains the fall down of the jiva from Vaikuntha found in the 4th Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam where the Supreme Lord is disguised as a brahmana; Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 4.28.53, ''The brāhmaṇa continued: My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can't you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world''. End of quote Srila Prabhupada answered philosophical questions from leaders and expected them to teach the correct understanding to devotees in general. Several of the most profound answers regarding our fall from Vaikuntha were written to Jagadisa dasa when he was engaged as Temple president for Toronto. Letter to Jagadisa Prabhu, 4/25/1970. Srila Prabhupada – ''Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at anytime, so there is always a chance of falling down by misuse of one’s independence''. End of quote Letter to Jagadisa 7/9/1970 Srila Prabhupada – Regarding your several questions: Where are the spirit souls coming from that are taking microbe bodies? It is not a matter of any particular body. These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities. There is no “ NEW” soul. “New'’ and “old'’ are due to this material body, but the soul is never born and never dies, so if there is no birth how there can be new soul''. End of quote Letter to Jagadisa 02/27/1970 Srila Prabhupada - “Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krishna is never lost, simply forgotten by the influence of maya so it maybe regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new'' End of quote Srila Prabhupada - "In the broader sense everyone comes from Krishna Loka. When one forgets Krishna he is conditioned, when one remembers Krishna he is liberated". (Letter to Mukunda, June 10, 1969) Srila Prabhupada - "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately Maya covers us. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going". (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami June 1972 Australia) Srila Prabhupada - "So, unless there is a possibility of misusing our free will, there is no question of freedom.” (Dialectical Spiritualism, Critique of Descartes) From your aspiring servant Gauragopala dasa Acbsp