The original position of the soul

The living entities falling down to the material world - best explanation of all. The living entities "fall down into this material world" from Vaikuntha and NOT the Impersonal Brahman. Srila Prabhupada - ''Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness''. An in depth explanation worth reading. The following Conversation took place in Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974 between Srila Prabhupada and his disciples. Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krishna, we have a perfect relationship with Krishna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we’re already serving Krishna?” Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.” Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…” Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire. Devotee – “In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?” Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. You forced Krishna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, “My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there.” But he insists, “Oh, I must go. I must go.” “All right, you go at your risk. That’s all. And you suffer. What can be done?” Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, almighty—therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence. If you persist that “I must go and enjoy independently,” so God says, “All right, you can go.” This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy”. End of quote Question - Is there a place in the Spiritual World from where we can never fall down from? Answer - It is not based on a "place you can never fall down from" that will keep you in Vaikuntha, it does not work that way because it is based on ‘’your choice’’ and nothing else. If you were forced to stay there then how can there be love? Remaining in Vaikuntha "eternally" is based on the conscious awareness of what the devotee wants as a unique selfless individual "loving" personal servant of the Lord. Even in such selfless emotions of loving devotion, the jivatma NEVER loses that unique ability of free will and self expression where one is "personally" always aware they are choosing how to selflessly serve Krishna or the servants of the servants of Krishna. The fact that one does not fall from God's personal Kingdom is your responsibility, not Gods, it is your choice, it is your free will to choose and nobody else including Krishna. The fact is 90% of all living entities do not fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana because they "choose not to". That "choice" is always with the marginal living entities or jiva. How is this so? The jivatma soul or marginal living entity has 78% of Krishna's quantities which puts them in the realm of having "a sense of independence, identity, personality, individuality and the ability to choose. This means the jivatma has the ability to agree or not agree even with Krishna. The sense of individuality allows the jivatma the right to choose Krishna or choose to be separate from Krishna. Remember Maya and the material energy does not exist in Vaikuntha so that is unknown to the jivatma. However, "free will, individuality, having independence, experiencing a unique sense of individual self worth and the ability to express all these qualities DOES exist in the makeup of the jivatma in Vaikuntha. And if all those abilities are taken away, then we lose the ability to give and accept love, we become no better than a stone or mindless robot. Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, almighty—therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence”. Conversation in Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974 between Srila Prabhupada and his disciples. No one can force you to stay in Vaikuntha, that choice must "always" be the jivatmas (our choice). For love to truly exist with the jiva-tattva (jivatma) we MUST have the the right to choose to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana at anytime. And the fact is a small minority do choose to leave, regardless of how some have interpreted past Sages and Acharyas. The fact is to say those who enter Vaikuntha will "never ever again fall down" IS true - ‘’for those who choose NOT to fall down". In other words, if the jiva wants to leave they certainly can. To make a blanket comment that "not even the leaves fall and leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana" seems to not take into consideration the free will of the jiva tattva. These comments from past Sages and Acharyas that the jiva never falls down once in Vaikuntha may have been said for many reasons, to give faith among aspiring devotees and neophytes to encourage them to understand that their constitutional position IS to NEVER ‘’choose’’ to leave Vaikuntha and NEVER ‘’desire’’ to enter the material world once they are in or returned to Vaikuntha. However to come to the material world is ultimately the jiva tattva's choice and Krishna does not interfere even though Krishna has promised there is no return to the material creation. The fact is there is if the jiva tattva wants to return, this is Prabhupada's point here - Acyutananda – “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns. He can return?” Srila Prabhupada – “If he likes he can return”. Guru-kripa – “How is it that one can become envious of Krishna?” Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976) End of quote For those who believe past Acharyas and sages meant that ''no one can ever fall down'' from Vaikuntha meant to address all souls in Vaikuntha, have not understood the variety of living entities in Vaikuntha and it is only a small minority of ONLY jiva tattva souls who do chose to leave. They have NOT understood there are many different inhabitants of Vrindavana who never fall down by choice such as the Sakti Vishnu tattvas who are expansions of Krishna, they never fall down because they ARE simultaneously eternal associates and Krishna experiencing Himself in unlimited extended ways. So for them, choice does not exist. And for over 90% of jiva tattva souls who do have the ability to choose, they also never fall down because they NEVER "choose" to fall down. Devotee - “Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back”. Srila Prabhupada - “No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, “Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,” I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become. . . .” End of quote However, there will always be a very small minority of only the jiva tattvas (not the Sakti tattva or Vishnu tattva "direct expansions"of Krishna) who misuse their ability to "choose" and leave if they desire. Free will is eternal even in Goloka and in fact without our ‘sovereignty as a living being’ to either forget or remember Krishna, then we would not have any individuality, no independent personality and no ability to love, we would be mindless ''yes'' drones like machines in a factory. Srila Prabhupada - “Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krishna says, yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.” Los Angeles, June 23, 1975 Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976) End of quote Krishna has many different energies. Jiva is one, Matter is one, the consorts of the Lord are one. Technically we are all Sakti tattva however there are different categories, we are the jiva tattva living entities known as the the ''marginal energy'' while others are Sakti tattvas and part of the ''internal potency or energy''. The Sakti tattva and Vishnu tattva Personalities are ''the eternal inhabitants of Vrindavana who can never fall down or choose to forget Krishna because THEY are direct expansions of Krishna Himself and part of His internal energies or potency of unlimited expansions and associates. For example the Pancha Tattva are a combination of Sakti tattva and Vishnu tattva Personalities with only one being jiva tattva. Srila Prabhupada - ''Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya, Śrī Nityānanda, Śrī Advaita, Śrī Gadādhara, and Śrīvāsādi. Śrīvāsādi means jīva-tattva. The jīva-tattva, śakti-tattva, viṣṇu-tattva, these are all tattvas. So Pañca-tattva. Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya is the supreme tattva, Kṛṣṇa. Śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nahe anya. We are worshiping Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. So Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya is Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa combined''.Lecture on CC Adi-lila 7.5 -- Mayapur, March 7, 1974 End of quote Sakti tattva is not exactly Vishnu Tattva even though Sakti tattva is also called Sakti-Vishnu-tattva. The correct understanding is that all of Krsna’s energies are under the broad category of Sakti-tattva. Srila Prabhupada - ''There are viṣṇu-tattva, jīva-tattva and śakti-tattva. Viṣṇu-tattva is the Supreme Absolute Truth, jīva-tattva is part and parcel, and śakti-tattva is the energy of God''. Lecture on SB 1.5.15 -- New Vrindaban, June 19, 1969 Sakti tattva the energy of Krishna are eternally occupied with their service to the Lord, such expansions have only the desire to please Krishna or His Vishnu expansion, they can never be covered by Maya and their concept of free will and independence is only to please Krishna or Vishnu as they are indirect and direct expansions of Godhead. Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana are made up of many Sakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas such as gopis, gopas and many, many others, there is also jiva tattvas (part and parcels) playing many roles in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrndavana as well, just like the Sakti Vishnu tattvas are. In Goloka Vrindavana no one knows who is who, who is jiva tattva, who is sakti tattva or who is jiva tattva, they do not even know this little boy Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the cause of all causes. As already explained, Sakti Vishnu tattvas can never fall down. Also the jiva tattvas can NEVER become Sakti tattvas or Vishnu tattvas. And jiva tattvas can never lose their seperate individual independence from Krishna even though technically all living entities are Sakti tattva expansions of Krishna that are fully dependent on Krishna like the sun rays are expansions that emanate from the Sun. Even though this is the case of being part and parcel of the Lord, the jivatma or jiva tattva still has "their own" sense of being a separate independent thinking individual from Krishna. Srila Prabhupada - ''The words bṛhate namas te have been explained by Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura: bṛhate śrī-kṛṣṇāya. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Kṛṣṇa the maintainer of all and cause of all causes. We are "separate and none separate" from Krishna simultaneously. There are many tattvas, such as viṣṇu-tattva, jīva-tattva and śakti-tattva, but above everything is the viṣṇu-tattva, which is all-pervading. This all-pervading feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is explained in Bhagavad-gītā (10.42), wherein the Lord says: athavā bahunaitena kiṁ jñātena tavārjuna viṣṭabhyāham idaṁ kṛtsnam ekāṁśena sthito jagat "But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe." Thus Kṛṣṇa says that the entire material world is maintained by His partial representation as Paramātmā. The Lord enters every universe as Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu and then expands Himself as Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu to enter the hearts of all living entities and even enter the atoms. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (Bs. 5.35). Every universe is full of atoms, and the Lord is not only within the universe but also within the atoms. Thus within every atom the Supreme Lord exists in His Viṣṇu feature as Paramātmā, but all the viṣṇu-tattvas emanate from Kṛṣṇa. As confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā (10.2), aham ādir hi devānām: Kṛṣṇa is the ādi, or beginning, of the devas of this material world—Brahmā, Viṣṇu and Maheśvara. Therefore He is described here as bhagavate bṛhate. End of quote So there are differences between different energies or expansions of the Lord. We the jiva tattva (jivatmas) are also expansions, the jiva tattvas have minute independence and "a sense of individual self that thinks separately from Krishna as a unique individual" and are called the ''marginal energy'' or jivatma. The jivatma (jiva tattva) is different from direct expansion like the Sakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas but both can be gopis, cowherd boys in Krishna lila. Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana also have so many expansions of Krishna that it is mind boggling. The jiva tattva can play the role of a gopa or gopi like a Sakti tattva and Vishnun tattva can but they can NEVER be Sakti Vishnu tattva who is Krishna Himself expanded as multiple personalities. We (jiva tattva) can also choose, if we desire, play the roles Sakti vishnu tattvas also play however, we ALWAYS remain jiva tattva. The jiva tattvas, unlike Sakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas, can 'choose' to forget Krishna and enter the mahat tattva or material creation of Maha Vishnu as nitya baddha and think they are an independent god. Vishnu tattvas and Sakti tattvas do not do that because they are direct expansion of Krishna and only carry out the will of God. Our eternal constitution position and eternal spiritual body is already there in Vaikuntha waiting for us to wake up from this material dream and return back home back to Godhead. Just like Jaya and Vijaya's eternal possition as gatekeepers of Vaikuntha is always there waiting for their return from falling down into the material creation. In Vaikuntha there is no concept of past and future time, only the ''individual awareness" of the "eternal presence'' of Krishna and being a dependent unique person and sense of the "self" that eternally exists there in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana. This is how we know all the universe is not ''all'' one with an all pervading consciousness that plays out different roles while contained in different vessels, except for Krishna and His unlimited expansions, we are all individual jiva tattvas. Therefore we never lose our independence and sense of self as an individual identity and being a "person" Even a blade of grass, leaf, tree, clouds, rain drops, grains of sand and dirt or chair is a Person in Goloka. Everything their is alive! Of course in the material world our individuality becomes covered by many different species of material bodies but underneath it all the jivatma or jiva tattva is there as an individual. Therefore it is very important we understand we have a "sense of independence and individuality as jiva tattva" this is what "marginal" means that makes us a unique "person" To say you can never leave Goloka once there is true for most but not all because we can choose to miss use our free will. Without having that choice, Prabhupada says we are no better than a stone, we would not be able to give love or receive love. And yes, many devotees have found this subject’s true meaning in Sastra very difficult to understand and therefore call it inconceivable rather than attempting to understand it or believe others understand it. Understand what? That making "choices" (that allows one to increase their “unique” individual expression of love for Krishna) is always with the marginal living entity even in Vaikuntha and to take that ability (the sense of self) away from the marginal living entity in Vaikuntha, the jivatma loses the individual ability to “give and accept love”. This is because without free will we lose our sense of independence as a person of having a unique separate identity from all of other individual jivatmas, Vishnu tattvas, and Krishna Himself. These are important points to understand. We, the jivatma souls are independent thinking souls eternally but simultaneously part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna the cause of all causes meant to please the Lord as the unique “persons”. Therefore, no one can force the jivatma to stay in Vaikuntha, that choice MUST be eternally yours (the jivatma) Only Vishnu tattvas and Vishnu shakti tattvas never fall down from Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana because they are direct expansions of Krishna playing different roles in Krishna's pastimes and have 93% of Krishna’s qualities making them direct expressions of Krishna Himself. Some Vishnu shakti tattvas are gopis including Radharani, gopas, parents, lovers etc many, many different personalities. Krishna’s brother Balarama is Vishnu tattva and many others are too playing different parts in Krishna Lila just like in Lord Caitanya’s pastimes where many are Vishnu tattva playing a roll also. It is ONLY these residents of Vrindavana who NEVER fall down into forgetfulness. And the fact is, more than 90% of jivatma’s also “choose” to stay in Vaikuntha and never enter the material world seeking selfish desires. All jiva tattvas have only 78% of Krishna’s qualities can leave if they choose. To be in Vaikuntha does not always guarantee you will stay there forever and never enter the material world. Although as already explained 90% never choose to forget Krishna because that is their desire and expression of free will. Past Sages and Acharyas say the jivatma can never fall down once they are in Vaikuntha. Yes, the fact is the jivas are not suppose to leave or fall from Vaikuntha and most never do, but Prabhupada has further explained this subject matter also and has said that sadly some jivas DO choose to leave or fall from Vaikuntha however, he explains it is only a very small minority who foolishly make that choice, less than 10%. Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?” Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”. Los Angeles, June 23, 1975. Let's clear one thing up, falling into the material world has absolutely nothing to do with maya or the material energy because maya does not and can not exist in Vaikuntha. The jivatma’s do not even know Maya or the material energy exists, however, they do have "free will and the ability to choose" and are aware that this quality is “eternally” part and parcel of the jivatma’s makeup and exists in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana. We do not lose our independence and sense of individual identity once we enter Vaikuntha, we are eternally independent living entities but depend of Krishna Personally or His many Vishnu expansions who provide all facilities in the material creation. In other words we are always independent living entities but always depend on Krishna just like the Sun rays cannot exist without the Sun. The fact is because we can "choose to be with Krishna or reject Him", then there can be increasing endeavors of loving exchange due to “choice”. This is one of the reasons why the material universe was created - to give "reality" to that choice of rejecting and forgetting Krishna, so the living entity can go to another place outside Vaikuntha if they choose, to try and enjoy without being conscious of Krishna’s existence (that place where one can forget Krishna is called the material creation) The marginal living entity or jivatma also must have the free will to choose Krishna instead of just being in Vaikuntha without no choice. The point made here is the position of the jivatma in Vaikuntha must be voluntary. Who you love and who you choose to serve MUST be voluntary. Many cannot understand these facts about the importance of free will, individuality, identity and the sense of self worth of being a unique person who can give selfless ever increasing love or service in their own way to Krishna. These qualities are based on the importance of the individual's ability to have "choices" within their experiences as a individual person. Once again to be truly free there must be the choice of Vaikuntha or its so called opposite where Krishna can be forgotten, the "material creation" Without the jivatma’s being able to choose Krishna or not there can never be love, Prabhupada has said to force love is called rape. Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking”. Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire? Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”. Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ” Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C. It takes only free will to live separately from Krishna and this choice has nothing to do with maya or material energy as explained above - it is simple free will that allows us to be a independent person and enter the material creation too. To do that one is given material bodies, a subtle and gross body that covers the spiritual form. In the material world, the jivatma has to put up with the gross material body always being in a state of decay and then eventually being forced to take another gross material body. Also once in the material creation, you're on your own terms, you are responsible therefore karma begins as soon as you leave Vaikuntha. No jivatma souls originate from the dormant Brahmajyoti, they often fall to it but have not come from there as Srila Prabhupada tells us. Letter to: Revatinandana — Los Angeles 13 June, 1970 Srila Prabhupada - 'The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he is fallen down’’. Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973) Srila Prabhupada - ‘’These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970 Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna Happening record album New York 1966. Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C. Srila Prabhupada - ''The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha, because God is eternal and His part and parcels, the living entities, they are also eternal. So that is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha, sädhana-siddha, krpa-siddha-there are different grades. They are all described in The Nectar of Devotion. So one can become sadhana-siddha. By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can also become siddha. He can become AGAIN nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas AGAIN nitya-siddha, to bring them. It is a difficult task'' - New York lecture on Caitanya-caritamrta, July 13, 1976. Srila Prabhupada - 'This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”. SB 4.29.83 Purport. Once, an Indian political leader, Syamasundara Chakravarti, asked Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada. “Why has the Lord granted such freedom to the jiva?” Srila Bhaktisiddhanta told him, “”You are fighting for freedom. Don’t you know the value of freedom? Devoid of freedom, the soul is only matter.” Freedom offers us the alternative to do right or wrong. Once, Gandhi told the British authorities, ”We want freedom.”‘ They replied, “You are not fit to have self-government. When you are fit, we shall give it to you.” But finally, he told them, “We want the freedom to do wrong.” So, freedom does not guarantee only acting in the right way; freedom has its value independent of right and wrong. Free will is only absolute with the Absolute Truth. Because we are finite our free will is infinitesimal. The possibility of committing a mistake is there. Our first choice was to dominate and so, gradually we have entered the world of domination. As a result of this first action, everything else has developed. So, in different ranks the species have been divided from the demigods down to the trees and stones. And watery bodies, gaseous bodies, anything that we find here has evolved in that way. The activating principle in any form of embryological development is the soul, and from the soul, everything has evolved.” End of quote Srila Prabhupada makes our "original position" with Krishna very clear. And yes, maya cannot be blamed for our fall down from Vaikuntha in any way because she, in her role as the personification of material energy, does NOT exist in Vaikuntha, nothing material can exist there. But free will does and always will exist in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana. Therefore "we" are responsible for our choices and actions. Srila Prabhupada on the other hand chose to come here to serve Krishna's plan to attract the fallen souls in the material universe back home back to Godhead. Many devotees also come here to preach Krishna Consciousness. There are three ways to come here, as a devotee who preaches, as a devotee who plays the part as a great demon like Jai and Vijai the gatekeepers of Vaikuntha. And those who "choose" to just forget and give up Krishna's association and do their own thing. Also one can never have material desires in Vaikuntha because Maya does NOT exist there. Maya cannot be blamed for tempting us and causing our fall down from Vaikuntha in any way because she, in her role as the personification of material energy, does NOT exist in Vaikuntha. Nothing material can exist there. But ''free will'', ''independence'' and ''individuality'' does and always will exist in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana. We therefore leave because of free will and the ability to choose to accept or reject Krishna. As an individual ''person'' endowed with independent thought and identity, we are able to make such chooses. What does the majority of people think being a "PERSON" really means after you surrender to Krishna? Do they think it is becoming some "yes man or women" of Krishna in His Kingdom where one becomes a mindless none thinking denier of the "individual self" who has unique qualities that makes you an individual? Do they think surrender means we give up our individuality? Sadly, so many have no idea what real "personalism" is which is a word tied to individuality. The idea of "don't think just do what your told" is impersonalist nonsense because it denies ''you'' to use your own abilities and talents to contribute something unique to your personality that no one else may have. So no, "you" DO NOT give up your independent individuality and sense of self worth and esteem to be fully surrendered and "dependant" on Krishna, maintaining that individuality is part of surrendering. In fact in Goloka your individual independence and dependence on Krishna go together side by side increasing simultaneously at the same time and is always expanding in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana. It takes spiritual intelligence to understand what real surrender is, and that includes understanding ‘’you’’ are eternally an independent individual person with your own sense of "individual self" separate from all other individual jiva souls. Although Krishna always accompanies all jiva tattva souls as a friend and witness to the jivatmas individual choices and actions because we are eternally parts and parcels of the Lord. Please read the above essay again, it explains we are all "unique individual persons" who are endowed with independent qualities allowing one to eternally give "THEIR OWN" best to Krishna. The jiva tattva is not part of an "all one programmed none thinking impersonal collective" within God's Kingdom, no, that is a description of what hell is like. Impersonalism means believing that in Vaikuntha we give up our independence and individuality and become part of an "all one collective consciousness" Living an impersonal existence is to be devoid of individual thought that does not allow personal contributions that makes ''you'', who you really are, as a person, as Krishna's eternal servant, as a unique living entity who can contribute the best of ''their'' individual abilities to Krishna. On the other hand personalism means the individual jiva must be able to grow and flourish as an independent living being giving their own personal contributions of devotional service to Krishna. To ''deny'' the jiva tattva's ''individuality'' and ''independent sense of identity'' is the hell "real" Krishna devotees fear. Many devotees in ISKCON and the Gaudiya Math have an impersonalist idea about what Vaikuntha is like and do not even know it. Only when the living entity desires not to be with Krishna do they enter the material world and realize Maya's existences. Paramahamsa - “But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return. Srila Prabhupada - “There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is”. Paramahamsa - “If we want”. Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”. Paramahamsa - “So we can come to the spiritual world and return?” Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”. Paramahamsa - “Fall down?” Srila Prabhupada - “Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go.” Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness. Therefore "we" are responsible for our choices and actions. So the conclusion is Srimad Bhagavatam explains the fall down of the jiva from Vaikuntha found in the 4th Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam where the Supreme Lord is disguised as a brahmana; Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 4.28.53, ''The brāhmaṇa continued: My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can't you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world''. End of quote Srila Prabhupada answered philosophical questions from leaders and expected them to teach the correct understanding to devotees in general. Several of the most profound answers regarding our fall from Vaikuntha were written to Jagadisa dasa when he was engaged as Temple president for Toronto. Letter to Jagadisa Prabhu, 4/25/1970. Srila Prabhupada – ''Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at anytime, so there is always a chance of falling down by misuse of one’s independence''. End of quote Letter to Jagadisa 7/9/1970 Srila Prabhupada – Regarding your several questions: Where are the spirit souls coming from that are taking microbe bodies? It is not a matter of any particular body. These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities. There is no “ NEW” soul. “New'’ and “old'’ are due to this material body, but the soul is never born and never dies, so if there is no birth how there can be new soul''. End of quote Letter to Jagadisa 02/27/1970 Srila Prabhupada - “Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krishna is never lost, simply forgotten by the influence of maya so it maybe regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new'' End of quote Srila Prabhupada - "In the broader sense everyone comes from Krishna Loka. When one forgets Krishna he is conditioned, when one remembers Krishna he is liberated". (Letter to Mukunda, June 10, 1969) Srila Prabhupada - "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately Maya covers us. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going". (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami June 1972 Australia) Srila Prabhupada - "So, unless there is a possibility of misusing our free will, there is no question of freedom.” (Dialectical Spiritualism, Critique of Descartes) From your aspiring servant Gauragopala dasa Acbsp