Gauragopala Das ACBSP: The relationship with Krsna is always a "two-sided" voluntary association based on loving exchanges, reciprocation and personal contributions meant to encourage unique individual contributions, self expression and personal offerings from each individual jiva-soul.

We all know the individual jiva-souls (marginal living entities) can NEVER exist independently from Krsna however, they do express themselves independently from Krsna necessary to create a "two-sided" exchange of loving emotions between Kṛṣṇa and the jiva-souls.

Srila Prabhupada – "So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force." (Mayapur, June 20, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada - "Free will means that you can act wrongly, that is free will, unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then? If I act only one sided, that means I have no free will. Because we act sometimes wrongly, that means free will." (Discussions on Rene Descartes philosophy)

The jiva-souls CAN always express their own independent free will, with voluntary service that Krsna sanctions for the purpose of allowing self-expression and unique personal contributions.

In the Vaikuntha planets and on Goloka-Vrindavana, personal voluntary expressions of loving exchanges expressed through free will, are ALWAYS encouraged by Krsna in His relationship with the jiva-souls.

This adds flavour, variety and mystery to the relationship.

So, obviously the Kingdom of God (Krsna) is NOT a "one-sided" dominating impersonal domain devoid of free will, that would only deny individual expression that would not allow personal contributions (offerings) to God (Krsna), meant to expand, enrich and flavour the relationship.

As said above, LOVE or service is NOT a "one-sided" affiliate of total supremacy or pre-eminence, genuine loving relations and service are based on voluntary reciprocal exchanges and contributions between TWO, not just one!

The individual jiva-souĺs have THEIR choices too, EVEN if that choice means rejecting Krsna. Free will only has meaning when the jiva-souls can express themselves in a "two-sided" affair. In other words, loving reciprocation is ONLY possible on a "two-way" street between two, with each contributing to the relationship's expansion of nectarine mellows.

The word "reciprocation" only has meaning when there are TWO involved, not one!

This also means the individual jiva-souls CAN reject Krsna if they choose, which in a sense, proves that "free will" DOES truly exist.

Having "free will" is the eternal constitutional make up of EVERY "marginal living entity," and is the foundation for ALL jiva-soul's voluntary relationship with Krsna.

Srila Prabhupāda – "Love means a relationship between "two persons," then there is exchange, then there is love. I must deal with you open-hearted, you must deal with me open-hearted, then there is love. So if you want to love Kṛṣṇa, God, then these things must be there." (Aug 9, 1976, Tehran)

The Sun-disc and the sun-rays CANNOT exist separately or independently from each other, similarly, Krsna cannot exist separately from the jiva-souls (parts and parcels) and the jiva-souls cannot exist separately from Krsna.

Each individual "jiva-soul" (marginal living entity) is a one of a kind independent PERSON with their own unique personality different from other jiva-souls including Kṛṣṇa's Personality.

No two individual jiva-souls are the same, and the jiva-souls (jiva-tattvas) can EVER become God [Visnu-tattva] or Krsna or Visnu, or Siva (in a league of his own who is between Visnu-tattva or jiva-tattva.

Loving devotional service to Krsna is ALWAYS based on a "two-way" voluntary exchange of personal feelings manifesting as loving acts of reciprocation between Kṛṣṇa and His devotees. Such devotees always voluntarily contribute their own unique expressions (offerings) of devotional service to Krsna in what is a genuine (real) act of surrendering to Krsna's will, that simultaneously, NEVER denies the "free will" self expression and personal contributions.

On the other hand, actions expressed in a "one-way" domineering forceful mood from a "so called God" in a Kingdom that does not allow personal voluntary contributions from the individual jiva-souls, in a "two-way" exchange of feelings, is dangerous impersonalism.

Personalism means a "two-way" relationship between two persons involved in voluntary loving exchanges that expands, enriches and multiplies loving affection, sentiment and reciprocation between the jiva-souls and Krsna.

Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will!" (Aug 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)

Srila Prabhupada - "Love means you take and you give also. Suppose if you love somebody and you simply take from him, but you don't give. Oh, do you think it is very good? No. It is not good. That is NOT love. That is exploitation. If I go on simply taking from you, and if I don't offer you anything, that is simply exploitation." (Lecture BG, Ch 9 text 2-5, New York City, Nov 23, 1966)

Srila Prabhupada - "We have got the propensity to love. Love means somebody else. Love cannot be one or love cannot be executed by only one, personally. There must be another one. I love somebody; somebody loves me, there must be lover, there must be beloved, and the transaction, then love." (SB, Canto 1 Ch 2 text 6, Delhi, Nov 12, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada - "The impersonalist philosophy is oneness, so how there be love with just one? Is it possible? Have you got any such experience that love means one? No. Love means two. There MUST be two, the lover and the beloved. Kṛṣṇa is already lover. He loves you so much that He's trying to get you back. That is Kṛṣṇa's attempt. "Please, My dear boy, or My dear friend, My dear servant." (SB, Canto 2 Ch 1 text 3, Paris, June 12, 1974)

Devotee – "Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?"

Srila Prabhupada – "Yes, human form, God is also human form. "Man is made after the shape of God." I think there is in the Bible. Is it not? So God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs."

Hari-sauri dasa– "How do we understand, then, that there are peacocks and flowers and trees in the spiritual world? Are these not eternal forms?"

Srila Prabhupada – "[describing material form first]: Yes, they are more covered. Just like if you cover your body with blanket, the hands and legs are invisible. But you are not the blanket. So the trees and plants, they are more covered. They are not in full manifestation. The human form is the full manifestation of the soul."

Hari-sauri dasa - "They are covered in the spiritual world?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Not in the spiritual world, there that is voluntary, some devotees want to serve Krsna as flower; so they become flower there. If I want that, to be a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Krsna, then he become flower, voluntarily, and he can change his, from flower to human body. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Krsna as cow, he serves Krsna as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. It is inconceivable, yet a fact." (SB, Canto 6 Ch 1 text 1-4 Melb, Australia May 20, 1975)

Srila Prabhupada - "The human form is the full manifestation of the jiva-soul." (Melb, May 20, 1975)

Srila Prabhupada - "The spirit soul is NOT formless; it has got form, the spirit soul always has form and is expressed as hands, legs, heads, everything. But with our material eyes at the present, our gross eyes, we cannot see these facts; therefore we foolishly believe the jiva-souls have no form." (Lecture BG, Ch 2 Text 14, Mexico, Feb 14, 1975)

Devotee - "What is the form of the spiritual body. If the spirit soul is non-material, what is the form?"

Srila Prabhupāda - "There is form, just like this material body is compared with the dress. Now, just like in your present material form you have got hand; therefore your coat has got hand. You have got legs; therefore your pant has got legs. Therefore it is to be assumed that the spirit soul always has got form, and is expressed as hands, legs, heads, everything. The spirit soul is not formless; it has got form. But with our material eyes at the present, gross eyes, we cannot find it; therefore we say and foolishly believe it has no form." (Lecture BG, Ch 2 Text 14, Mexico, Feb 14, 1975)

Devotee - "If jiva-soul is non-material, what is the form?

Srila Prabhupāda - "There is form, just like this body is compared with the dress. Now, just like in your present material form you have got hand; therefore your coat has got hand. If you have got... You have got leg; therefore your pant has got leg. Therefore it is to be assumed that the spirit soul has got form, and it has developed into hands, legs, heads, everything. It is not formless; it has got form. But with our material eyes at the present, gross eyes, we cannot find it; therefore we say it has no form." (Lecture BG, Ch 2 Text 14, Mexico, Feb 14, 1975)

Devotee - "Śrīla Prabhupāda, you state that spirit soul has form."

Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes, otherwise, how is the material body grown to accommodate the spirit soul? Just like a shirt has no form, but when it's put on the body, it takes the shapes of the body. Does that mean that the spirit soul has the shape of the body that is accommodating it? Yes, you are spiritual body with form. If you have got spiritual power, then you can measure it in the material world. And that measurement in the material world is also given in the śāstra. What is that? One ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. Hair is a very small point. And divide it into ten thousand parts. That one part is the measure, magnitude of the soul. But you have no eyes to see, how to see one ten-thousandth portion of the top of the hair. You cannot see even the original top of the hair. Everything is there. We must the have the eyes to see." (Lecture SB, Canto 1 Ch 16 Text 24, Hawaii, Jan 20, 1974)

Srila Prabhupāda - "This material world is existing on the spiritual prakṛti. You can calculate what is your body, This material body is existing on the spiritual body. Just wearing your shirt. The shirt is existing on your actual hand. The shirt has got a hand because you have got hand. So matter is impersonal. But because the superior prakṛti, jīva, he is person, therefore the matter appears like a person.

Because I have got hands and legs, therefore this cloth has got hands and legs. Otherwise the cloth has no hands and legs; it is impersonal. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni. This body is just like dress. Just like your coat has got hand, your pant has got leg, but either the pant or coat has no leg, no hand.

Because you have got leg and hand, therefore the coat has got leg and hand. Everyone can understand, it is very easy. So, the original eternal the spirit soul has got form. Therefore the cloth has been cut into form. It is very easy to understand, otherwise how you get the form? And in this form the spirit soul is trying to enjoy this material world. But it is not puruṣa. It cannot enjoy. That is false. That is illusion." (Lecture SB, Canto 3 Ch 26 Text 3, Bombay, Dec 15, 1974)

Devotee - "Would the jiva-soul that is within, say, a cow's body, is in a different shape?"

Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes, it has got also legs, but the shape has taken a form according to his desire. Just like a bird, it has two wings, two legs. The animal has got four legs, and man has got two hands, two legs. So the same parts of the body, they are appearing in a different type. But the four limbs of the body are there."

Hayagrīva dasa - "Aquinas believed that God is the only single essence that consists of pure form. He felt that matter is only a potential and, in order to be real, must assume a certain shape or form. Being in the universe have to acquire an individual form in order to actualize themselves. When matter unites with form, the form gives an object its individuality and personality. A form gives an object its individuality and personality."

Srila Prabhupāda - Yes, matter has no form but the jiva-soul has got form. Though matter is covering the actual form of the jiva-soul, the matter then appears to have form. Just like the original cloth has no form, but when the tailor cuts the cloth according to the body of the person, then the shirt and coat takes a form. The matter itself has no form. When you take clay, it has no form, but if you make it like a doll, like a man or woman, then it has a form. When you change the clay, and you manufacture a fort, then the fort has form. So form and formlessness is of the matter, but in the spiritual world everything has got form. The spirit soul has got form. God has got form. This is the truth."

Hayagrīva dasa - "Aquinas believed that only God and the angels have form that is not material. There is no difference between God's form and His spiritual self."

Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes, as in the material world any form-man or beast or anyone—in the outward, external covering is matter, but within the matter there is the soul. The soul has form and God has form. That is real form. And the material form is simply shirting and coating over the spiritual body."

Hayagrīva dasa - "Aquinas considered that matter was necessary to give the jiva-soul form."

Srila Prabhupāda - "No, the jiva-soul has its original eternal spiritual bodily form."

Hayagrīva dasa - "Original form?"

Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes."

Hayagrīva dasa - "Which is the form of the body."

Srila Prabhupāda - "Original form, that is the form of the spirit."

Hayagrīva dasa - "Of the spirit."

Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes, and the form of the body takes place on account of the form of the spirit. This is very nice example. The cloth has no form, but when it is cut according to the form of the gentleman, it takes a form. Similarly, matter has no form. When it is coated on the spiritual form of the soul, it takes the form. This is very easy to understand." (Philosophy Discussion on Thomas Aquinas)

As said above, the infinite eternal FORM of the marginal living entity (jiva-soul) is a "two-arm form" like Krsnas (that human species also have). Further more, the jiva-souls in Goloka-Vrindavana can choose to enter the Vaikuntha planets where they manifest from their "two-armed form" to a "four armed form" similar to Visnu's bodily form.

The marginal living entities or jiva-soul's infinite (beginningless and endless) bodily form are made up of-

Sat - eternity.

Cit - knowledge.

Ananda - bliss.

Vigraha - perpetual bodily spiritual form.

The jiva-souls are eternal spiritual living PERSONS and can never be destroyed, terminated or extinguished, the jiva-souls are indestructible.

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - “Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.” (BG, Ch 2 text 12, 1983 edition)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - “As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change." (BG, Ch 2 text 13, 1983 edition)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - “Those who are seers of the truth have concluded that of the nonexistent [the material body] there is no endurance and of the eternal [the soul] there is no change. This they have concluded by studying the nature of both." (BG, Ch 2 text 16, 1983 edition)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - “That which pervades the entire body you should know to be indestructible. No one is able to destroy that imperishable soul." (BG, Ch 2 text 17, 1983 edition)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - “Neither he who thinks the living entity the slayer nor he who thinks it slain is in knowledge, for the self slays not nor is slain." (BG, Ch 2 text 19, 1983 edition)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." (BG Ch 2 text 20 "corrected" 1983 edition)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "O Pārtha, how can a person who knows that the soul is indestructible, eternal, unborn and immutable kill anyone or cause anyone to kill?" (BG, Ch 2 text 21, 1983 edition)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, the soul similarly accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones." (BG, Ch 2 text 22, 1983 edition)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "The soul can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind." (BG, Ch 2 text 23, 1983 edition)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same." (BG, Ch 2 text 24, 1983 edition)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "It is said that the soul is invisible, inconceivable and immutable. Knowing this, you should not grieve for the material body." (BG, Ch 2 text 25, 1983 edition)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "One who has taken his birth is sure to die, and after death one is sure to take birth again. Therefore, in the unavoidable discharge of your duty, you should not lament." (BG, Ch 2 text 27, 1983 edition)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "Some look on the soul as amazing, some describe him as amazing, and some hear of him as amazing, while others, even after hearing about him, cannot understand him at all." (BG, Ch 2 text 29, 1983 edition)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "O descendant of Bharata, he who dwells in the material body can never be slain. Therefore, you need not grieve for any living being." (BG, Ch 2 text 30, 1983 edition)

Srila Prabhupada – "There are no new souls, new and old are due to this material body, but the jiva-soul is never born and never dies, so if there is no birth, how can there be new souls?" (Letter to Jagadisa dasa, 7/9/1970)

Therefore, the original eternal bodily feature of the jiva-soul is not some impersonal formless spark in the inactive Brahmajyoti, or Brahman as the impersonalists and mayavadis believe, nor does the jiva-souls originate from the dreams of Maha-Visnu, whom they go to AFTER entering the material creation from Vaikuntha, and then provided with a variety of material bodily vessels.

In the material world each jiva-soul is housed in a material bodily vessel originally created by the dreaming Maha-Visnu and "hired" from Him. Maha-Visnu creates the material facilities and material bodily vessels the jiva-soul's possess in the material world according to their desires. No jiva-soul originates from Maha-Visnu, the impersonal Brahman or tatastha-sakti as some scholars and devotees wrongly believe.

All are fallen conditional states of the jiva-soul in the material world, or the Impersonal brahmajyoti. Both the material creation and the impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti, are places the jiva-souls falls too from Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana, or choose to enter. The jiva-souls do not originate from an already fallen condition like the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

Revatīnandana - "Srila Prabhupāda you very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the jiva-soul then goes into the brahmajyoti, he is considered still fallen. Still fallen. Does that means the whole brahmajyoti is composed of fallen souls? You see my question? If I go there, I'm a jīva-soul, and I go to the brahmajyoti I'm still fallen."

Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes."

Revatīnandana - "That means all jīva-souls there in the impersonal Brahman (Brahmajyoti) are also fallen souls?"

Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes, existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition (Goloka-Vrindavana and Vaikuntha). The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness." (Letter to Revatinandana, LA 13 June, 1970 and 1971 London)

Only the material bodily vessels or costumes the visiting jiva-souls wear, come from Maha-Visnu and NOT the jiva-souls. Such material bodies are "hired" from the dreams of Maha-Visnu so they can enter His material creation in a suitable bodily container that matches their desires that are separate from Krsna.

Srila Prabhupada - "We are not the owner of this body, not the owner of the material senses. The senses are "hired" from the Supreme Lord. This is very subtle understanding; one should know the proprietor of the senses is God." (March 1966, NY, City)

All the material bodily vessels in the material creation belong to Maha-Visnu and must be aquired from Him in order to enter the material worlds. However, all such bodily vessels in the material world are temporary and subject to decay, nothing made of matter lasts forever. This causes the eternal jiva-souls within those material bodies, who are visiting from the spiritual world as passengers, to continue taking birth and continue trying to satisfy their desires.

Srila Prabhupada – "This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream." (SB, Canto 4 Ch 29 Text 83)

To enter the material creation, the visiting jiva-souls have to approach Maha-Visnu to "hire" a material bodily vessel from Him, in order to experience their own desires separate from Krsna and His spiritual abode.

The visiting jiva-souls enter the material creation by first "hiring" a material bodily vessel from the dreams of Maha-Visnu.

Srila Prabhupada – "Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma-Samhita describes-

This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation." (SB, Canto 4 Ch 29 Text 83)

Srila Prabhupada - "Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present, and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature." (SB, Canto 4 Ch 29 Text 2b)

Srila Prabhupada - "Factually all of material existence is only a dream. Thus, there is no question of past, present, or future. Persons who are addicted to karma-kanda-vicara, which means ‘working for future happiness through fruitive activities’, are also dreaming. Similarly, past happiness and present happiness are merely dreams." (SB, Canto 4 Ch 29 Text 2b)

All material bodies in the material creation are provided to the jiva-souls, who reject Krsna and Visnu, by Maha-Visnu.

The individual jiva-souls (marginal living entities) are independent "PERSONS" in the perpetual spiritual world's of the Vaikuntha planets and Goloka-Vrindavana.

There, the jiva-souls have their own unique personality separate from Krsna's Personality, and can choose to "voluntarily" serve Krsna in unlimited ways, or even reject Him and enter the temporary material world if they want.

The jiva-souls are an eternal spiritual "bodily form" who have always had their unique freedom in the spiritual world, whose bodily appearance has always looked like Krsna AS their "infinite" spiritual bodily form - two-arms, two legs, etc.

However, the jiva-souls can change their appearance to other spiritual forms if the choose, keep in mind, EVERYTHING is alive in the spiritual world including a bench, flagpole, chair, fence, road, cloud, chariot etc.

It is important to understand that the individual jiva-souls (marginal living entities), as their full spiritual personality potential in the spiritual world, ALWAYS have the choice on how they voluntarily want to serve Him, or can also reject Him if they choose.

Free will is the constitutional make up of every jiva-soul (marginal living entities) in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana, where nothing material exists.

There is no Maya or material energy in the spiritual world however, there is ALWAYS free will.

All the individual personal contributions from the jiva-souls are forever expanding, this is because of the unique ability of self expression, that eternally exists in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana. This allows the jiva-souls to always make voluntary offerings to Krsna that forever increase and expand loving emotions in healthy "two-way" exchanges between Kṛṣṇa and the individual jīva-souls.

It is VERY important to understand that the individual jiva-souls are "PERSONS" with their own unique individual feelings of self expression existing always in both Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana.

The jiva-souls (marginal living entities) are unique individual "persons" with a "bodily form" separate from Krsna's form, and from His direct Visnu-tattva expansions, and the other jiva-souls.

However, the jiva-souls are simultaneously always fully dependent on the Lord who supplies their individual existence with all they need.

Srila Prabhupada - "The "immediate" expansions of the Lord are called svāṁśa or personal direct expansions (Visnu-tattva). The "separated" expansions of the Lord are called vibhinnāṁśa - jiva-tattva or independent jiva-souls like us." (BG, Ch 10 Text 37, Purport)

It must be clearly understood for love to truly exist, each jiva-soul MUST have their free will to make their own choices, even if it means leaving Krsna if they choose, otherwise there can be no question of genuine love or service.

Srila Prabhupada - "So, unless there is a possibility of misusing our free will, there is no question of freedom." (Dialectical Spiritualism, Critique of Descartes)

This quality or attribute of free will is part of the jiva-soul's marginal constitutional nature, as an independent free thinking part and parcels expansion of the Krsna.

Krsna allows this freedom that all jiva-souls have because without free will loving exchanges and reciprocation can NEVER exist.

Srila Prabhupada – "You have got little independence therefore you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God you have got independence, proportionately, therefore if he likes he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We CAN misuse that." (Mayapur, Feb 19, 1976)

Having "free will" is the constitutional make up of all marginal living entities (jiva-souls) that is ALWAYS part and parcel of their eternal character and personality in the spiritual world. This means the jiva-souls can even choose to leave the Vaikuntha planets, or Goloka-Vrindavana, anytime they want.

Free will always allows this and if it didn't, then there is no question of having loving exchanges or free will. The choice to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana is possible because Krsna allows a "two-way" relationship, this means one can accept or reject Krsna if they choose to do so. On the other hand in the mundane material creation, so many terrible things are constantly happening and taken for granted due to ignorance.

Like the unnatural painful cycle of birth, disease, old age and death the jiva-souls experience while covered by a material bodily vessel and foolishly take for granted.

Frustration in the constantly changing material creation, will always be experienced by those jiva-souls (marginal living entities) who choose to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana, and foolishly enter the material creation, because the material creation is ALWAYS in a constantly progressive state of decay, decline causing forgetfulness.

Therefore, one's material bodily vessel always wears out, breaks down and decays (dies) but the jiva-soul, covered by that material temporary body, is eternal and NEVER subjected to decay or decline.

The eternal jiva-souls trapped in material nature, are forced to continuously change material bodies because of the temporary nature of the material creation and the material bodily vessels they are temporarily in.

The suffering of the individual jiva-soul within this temporary material nature, does NOT happen because of Krsna, He is not responsible for the jiva-soul's choices.

Krsna is NOT responsible for the suffering of the individual jiva-souls who have chosen to enter the material creation, even though the massive Brahmanda material universes are Krsna's creation, built by His expansion Maha-Visnu.

The suffering in the material creation happens because at one point in the spiritual world, the individual jiva-soul (marginal living entity) has "chosen" to misuse their free will given to them by Krsna for the purpose of allowing voluntary diversity, and meant to encourage individual offerings, loving exchanges and voluntary contributions.

Therefore, as a result of mistakingly misusing their free will, the jiva-soul is forced by their own actions, to enter the temporary material creation and become entangled in the repeated cycle of birth and death.

Krsna will NEVER interfere with the individual jiva-soul's free will because if he did, the jiva-souls would have no independent sense of self, or abilities to accept and experience genuine loving exchanges and service.

Without having that independent sense of having a "unique individual personality," having unique abilities that allow one to "choose" for themselves how to voluntary be involved in loving exchanges with Krsna, based on mutual reciprocation, then there can be no question of genuine love or free will.

These are the characteristics that make the jiva-soul (marginal living entity) the individual PERSON they are eternally.

Love or service in the spiritual world is NEVER a one-way street, love can ONLY exist when "two" are exchanging service to each other. Only then when there is loving reciprocation and exchanges of good feelings between Kṛṣṇa and His devotee, does love exist.

Only when "two" are voluntarily involved together in reciprocating with each other, can loving exchanges flourish and grow. In this way, real love or service is ALWAYS based on a "two-way exchange of reciprocal feelings.

As said above, that means offering individual contributions that will enhance, expand and perpetually uplift the relationship between Krsna and His marginal living entities (jiva-souls).

This can ONLY exist if the jiva-souls are allowed to express their own independent individuality and unique free will without interference (forced surrender) from Krsna.

If Krsna did force His will on the jiva-souls then there can never be genuine loving exchanges because denying free will is also denying the jiva-souls to voluntary contribute their own choices of service.

Srila Prabhupāda - "Unless there are "two persons", where is the question of love? Love means two persons, then there is exchange. When these things are transacted, then there is love. I must deal with you open-hearted, you must deal with me open-hearted, then there is love. So if you want to love Kṛṣṇa, God, then these things MUST be there." (Aug 9, 1976, Tehran)

Srila Prabhupada - "Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force, no, Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!" (Washington DC July 8, 1976)

Having "free will" is the eternal constitutional make up of EVERY "marginal living entity", and is the foundation for ALL jiva-soul's relationship with Krsna.

Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will!" (Aug 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)

In the spiritual world or Kingdom of God (Goloka-Vrindavana), loving service can never be a one-way or one-sided affair, no, real love or service is always an exchange of voluntary loving exchanges between two in a two-way relationship.

Surrendering one's "free will" to Krsna so He has complete control over the jiva-soul's every thought and actions, just like a puppet master has absolute control over his puppets, to a Vaisnava, is dangerous impersonalism.

Srila Prabhupada - "In Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?" (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C)

Such impersonalism is compared to a puppet master controlling his mindless puppets, by moving the strings attached to them, that gives them movement.

The puppet has no sense of life, freedom or independence, similarly if Krsna had full control over the individual jiva-soul's ability to make their own choices, it would deny the jiva-souls from experiencing their own personal sense of an independent self, and being able to make their OWN decisions and choices of offering their own personal unique contributions.

Sadly, this type of bogus surrender, where immature leaders demand you surrender your free will, and then tell you to just let Krsna flow through you and do all the thinking for you, is really impersonalism because you are attempting to extinguish your individual identity and unique personality that makes you who you are as a contributing servant of the Lord.

This kind of mindless surrender is actually mayavadi philosophy.

The fact is, if Krsna had full dictatorial control over the jiva-souls in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavan, then that one-sided totalitarian relationship is only empty impersonalism and slaverly devoid of real meaningful loving exchanges.

Only a fool would want to be Krsna's mindles slave (or an atom on His lotus feet) by attempting to extinguish their individuality, personality, independence thought (free will) that will only deny the jiva-souls being the contributing unique PERSONS they are, who can voluntarily choose what to offer to Krsna and how to serve Him.

Therefore, a nonsense "one-sided" dictatorial relationship on the Vaikuntha planets, or in Goloka Vrindavana, would simply make the jiva-souls no better than lifeless dead stone Prabhupada has warned, just like a lifeless puppet is controlled by the strings held by the puppet master.

The fact is, the jiva-souls on the Vaikuntha planets and in Goloka-Vrindavan, ALWAYS have their own separate independent "free will" that is part and parcel of their unique individual marginal identity (as a jiva-soul) eternally.

This "freedom" to express free will, allows the jiva-souls to each make their own unique personal offerings and voluntary contributions or service to Visnu or Krsna, where each jiva-soul can serve Krsna in their own unique personal way.

In other words, each individual jiva-soul has their own special unique (personal) association and relationship with Krsna that no other jiva-soul has like theirs.

These loving exchanges are based on a "two-way" relationship between Krsna and the jiva-souls.

However, in the temporary material creation, it is different because those who have entered the material creation, have previously chosen to leave the Vaikuntha planets or Goloka-Vrindavan, by rejecting Visnu in Vaikuntha or Krsna in Goloka-Vrindavana.

So, why does Krsna allow the jiva-souls to have the independent freedom to even leave the Vaikuntha planets or Goloka Vrindavan if they choose?

Devotee – "In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krsna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krsna did not want us to come, why are we here?” Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?"

Srila Prabhupada - "That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?" (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C)

First of all we read from above by Prabhupada, Krsna gives the jiva-souls "free will" in the spiritual world that allows them to make their own choices there. Having free will also makes the jiva-souls fully responsible for all their choices and actions.

Rejecting the Vaikuntha planets or Goloka Vrindavan and therefore having to enter the material creation is actually very rare, only less than 10% make such a choice, a mistake by those jiva-souls because the material creation is NOT the real home of the individual jiva-souls.

It must be clearly understood for love to truly exist, each jiva-soul MUST have the free will to make their own choices, even if it means leaving Krsna if they choose, otherwise there can be no question of genuine love or service.

Srila Prabhupada - "So, unless there is a possibility of misusing our free will, there is no question of freedom." (Dialectical Spiritualism, Critique of Descartes)

This quality or attribute of free will is part of the jiva-soul's marginal constitutional nature, as an independent free thinking part and parcels expansion of the Krsna.

Krsna allows this freedom that all jiva-souls have because without free will loving exchanges and reciprocation can NEVER exist.

Having "free will" is the constitutional make up of all marginal living entities (jiva-souls) that is ALWAYS part and parcel of their eternal character and personality in the spiritual worlds.

This means the jiva-souls can even choose to leave the Vaikuntha planets or Goloka-Vrindavana if they want. Free will always allows this and if it didn't then there is no question of loving exchanges. This is why it is foolish to claim once entering the spiritual world, the jiva-souls can never leave or down again. No, they CAN fall down again and again if they choose to do so!

As said above, such choices or fall downs have nothing to do with Maya (material energy) because Maya does not exist on the Vaikuntha planets and Goloka Vrindavana. It is simply the misuse of free will that is the cause of fall down.

The choice to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana is possible because Krsna allows an open "two-way" relationship, this means one can even accept or reject Krsna if they choose.

Srila Prabhupada - "Free will means that you can act wrongly. That is free will. Unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then? If I act only one sided, that means I have no free will. Because we act sometimes wrongly, that means free will."

Hayagriva dasa - "A man may know better but still act wrongly."

Srila Prabhupada -"Yes, but that is free will. He misuses his. Just like a thief, he knows that his stealing, it is bad, but still he does it. That is free will. He cannot check his greediness, so in spite of his knowing that he is doing wrong thing—he will be punished, he knows; he has seen another thief, he was punished, he was put into prison— everything he knows, but still he steals. Why? Misuse of free will. Unless there is misuse of free will, there is no question of free will." (Talk on Rene Descartes philosophy)

Syamasundara - "But can we predict returning back home back to Godhead will be permanent? Can we predict that? Just like many prisoners leave the prison, however some do come back?"

Srila Prabhupada - "No, there is no permanent effect because we have got little independence. There is nothing permanent because you can misuse your independence at any time."

Syamasundara - "And some come back?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, otherwise there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do this, you can do that. "All right. Whatever you like."

Devotee - "Then he is so many times falling down, again and again, so will he eventually permanently come back?"

Srila Prabhupada - "He has got independence, therefore there is always the possibility he can misuse his independence, he CAN fall down. That's why when a man is released from the prison house, that does not mean permanently because he can come back again, the general law is NOT to come back, but if he likes, he can come back, otherwise what is the meaning of independence? Just like one becomes free from the prison house, naturally he should not go there again." (Talk with Syamasundara on Henri Bergson philosophy)

Even though Krsna has promised there is no return to the material creation once returning to the spiritual worlds, the fact is there IS return if the jiva-souls want to return as Prabhupada explains here-

Acyutananda – "In Bhagavad Gita Krsna says, once coming to the spiritual world, the jiva-soul never returns to the material world, so He can return?"

Srila Prabhupada – "If he likes he can return, that is voluntary."

Guru-kripa – "How is it that one can become envious of Krsna?"

Srila Prabhupada – "You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God. God has got full independence, but you have got independence too, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, so if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown." (Mayapur Feb 19, 1976)

Paramahamsa - "But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return?"

Srila Prabhupada - "There IS return, that is voluntary. Return there is."

Paramahamsa - "If we want."

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes."

Paramahamsa - "So we can come to the spiritual world and return?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes."

Paramahamsa - "Fall down?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, as soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go and enjoy the material world, otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, all right, you enjoy like this, just like some of our students sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will. Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, "Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here." He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that."

Paramahamsa - "So our desire to enjoy, we achieve these material bodies; and our desire to achieve Krsna brings us to our natural position."

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes." (Cheviot Hills, May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Devotee - "Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back."

Srila Prabhupada - "No! There is possibility, but he does not come IF he is intelligent. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it in again. So those who are going back to Godhead, they MUST become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead?" (Talk with Syamasundara Dasa)

Srila Prabhupada - "As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice," "Yes," Kṛṣṇa says, "yes, you can go." Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Kṛṣṇa is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." It is free will." (May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

All jiva-souls (marginal living entities) must have these 3 basic qualities.

1 - An independent sense of self worth and self expression,

2 - Individuality separate from Krsna but simultaneously always dependant on Krsna because He is the cause of all causes,

3 - Their own personal unique character and personality separate from Krsna's Personality.

Only then when these qualities exist, can there be PERSONAL meaningful reciprocal loving exchanges between Krsna and His marginal living entities (jiva-souls) because love can only exist in a "two-way" contribution of personal feelings and voluntary exchanges.

Sadly, there are some jiva-souls who do make the wrong choice in the spiritual world Prabhupada has explained, and enter the temporary material creation.

Srila Prabhupada explains that figure is less than 10%. This fall down into the material world also has nothing to do with Maya or the material energy because Maya does NOT exist there however, free will does exist eternally in the spiritual world.

Most jiva-souls do not fall down, over 90% choose to NEVER rebel or leave the spiritual world.

Although, less than 10% do become rebellious and choose to enter the temporary decaying material creation, where the jiva-souls are forced to accept the cycle of repeated birth and death.

The jiva-souls are Krsna's marginal energy which means they can sometimes be in the spiritual world or sometimes in the material world.

By nature, the jiva-souls are spiritual living entities therefore their real infinite position and home is the spiritual worlds of the Vaikuntha planets and Goloka-Vrindavana.

Dr. John Mize – "Does Krsna know ahead of time that a soul is going to be foolish and fall down to the material world?"

Srila Prabhupada – "Krsna? Yes, Krsna may know because He is omniscient."

Dr. John Mize – "Are more souls falling all the time?"

Srila Prabhupada – "Not all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence… Everyone is not liking to misuse the independence. The same example, just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal. So their shelter must be also constructed. It is very easy to understand. Not that cent percent population will be criminal, but government knows that some of them will be. Otherwise, why they construct prison house also? One may say, “Where is the criminal? You are constructing…” Government knows, there will be criminal. So if the ordinary government can know, why God cannot know? Because there is tendency."

Dr. John Mize – "The origin of that tendency (to fall from Goloka) is…?"

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes."

Dr. John Mize – "From where does that tendency come?"

Srila Prabhupada – "Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krsna says,yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like." (BG, As It Is. lecture, Mayapur, June 20, 1973)

While in the material creation, their actions, good and bad, come under the laws of material nature called karma, and they have to answer for all they do, good or bad.

Therefore, the full freedom or free will that exists in Goloka Vrindavana and Vaikuntha, certainly does NOT exist in the material creation.

Choosing to reject Krsna means the jiva-souls are FULLY responsible for their own actions, life after life in the material creation. Krsna is NOT responsible for the choices each jiva-soul makes, they are.

All the suffering the jiva-souls experience in the material creation is caused by them leaving Krsna in the first place and then reaping the reactions of their own mistaken choices of actions within a temporary material bodily vessel or container within the material creation.

In other words, the jiva-soul is punished or rewarded for what ever actions, good or bad, they have "chosen" to act out in this life that may not be payed for until the next life, or even the life after that.

No one understands how Karma fully works because no one knows how many births we have had in the material creation over an infinity of years!! It's beginningless and endless.

This is important to understand and realize, we are all responsible for our own actions and pay for them with the kind of material body we get.

We CANNOT blame God (Krsna) for our suffering in the material world.

Without "free will" in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavan, freedom to uniquely serve and love Kṛṣṇa in one's own way from one's heart (personality) will NEVER exist.

This means the jiva-souls must always have an independent sense of self worth, individuality, and their own unique character and personality.

As said above, only then can reciprocal love between two exist with Krsna and His marginal living entity (jiva-soul) exist.

Srila Prabhupada has said without free will and the ability to reciprocate as an independent individual servant of Lord Krsna, then we are all no better than a dead stone.

Srila Prabhupāda – ''Unless there are "two persons", where is the question of love? Love means two persons, then there is exchange, then there is love. I must deal with you open-hearted, you must deal with me open-hearted, then there is love. So if you want to love Kṛṣṇa, God, then these things must be there." (Aug 9, 1976, Tehran)

The individual jiva-souls (marginal living entities) can NEVER exist independently from Krsna even though they CAN express their own independent free will that Krsna provides separately for the purpose of allowing "two-way" voluntary exchanges of loving expressions and encouraging unique (individual contributions) personal offerings.

We must never forget that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and cause of all causes, if we properly understand this, then we will understand the following discussion that everything comes from Krsna including free will-

Swedish man - "Is there free will?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, just like you are sitting here. If you don’t like, you can go away. That’s your free will. There is free will, we are part and parcel of God, therefore we have got minute quantity of freedom." (Temple lecture Stockholm Sweden)

Srila Prabhupada - "Every individual soul is awarded a portion of independence because each is part and parcel of God. Thus he has the quality of independence, but in minute quantity, that is his individuality."

Syamasundara dasa - "Is Krsna within each atom as an individual entity different from every other entity?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, Krsna is there, He is individual. There are varieties of atoms, and sometimes they are combined together."

Syamasundara dasa - "How is each Krsna different? How is it He is an individual in each of the atoms?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Why is He not an individual? Krsna is always an individual. He is always a person, the Supreme Person, and He can expand Himself innumerably."

Syamasundara dasa - "And is Paramatma a person?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, every expansion is a person. We are all atomic expansions of Krsna, and we are all individual persons. Paramatma is another expansion, but that is a different kind of expansion."

Syamasundara dasa - "Is the jivatma (jiva-tattva) known as the individual jiva-soul, also a person?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, if he were not a person, then how would you account for the differences? We are all different persons. You may agree with my opinion or not, but in any case you are an individual. Krsna is also an individual. Nityo nityanam. There are innumerable individual souls, but He is the supreme individual person."

Syamasundara dasa - "So even within material atoms, there is a spiritual life, a spiritual force?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, force means spiritual force."

Syamasundara dasa - "But even within the dead body there are forces. There is the force of decomposition."

Srila Prabhupada - "Krsna is within the atom, and the body is a combination of so many atoms; therefore the force for creating other living entities is also there even in the process of decomposition. When the individual jiva-soul's force is stopped within a particular body, we call that body a dead body. Still, Krsna's force is there because the body is a combination of atoms and Krsna is also in the atom. If you take it in that way, Krsna is within every atom, and wants whatever is to be. Therefore Krsna "wills" that these two elements become one, and therefore the molecules combine to create water, or whatever. Thus there is a creation, and again there is another creation, and so on. In any case, the ultimate brain governing all creation is Krsna." (Dialectical Spiritualism: A Vedic View of Western Philosophy)

We must never forget that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and cause of ALL causes.

If we properly understand this, then we will understand the following discussion that everything comes from Krsna including free will. Srila Prabhupada is simply confirming below that everything comes from Krsna and MUST be sanctioned by Krsna first, including FREE WILL

Syamasundara dasa - "Does the individual jiva-soul have a little independence to choose?"

Srila Prabhupada - "No (not without the sanction of Krsna) Bhagavad-Gita states that when the individual jiva-soul wants to act, Krsna gives the orders. Man proposes, and God disposes."

Syamasundara dasa - "So, we have no free will?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Not without the sanction of Krsna. Without Him, we cannot do anything, therefore He is the ultimate cause of all causes."

Syamasundara dasa - "But I thought you have been saying that we have a little independence."

Srila Prabhupada - "We have the independence in the sense that we may deny or affirm, but unless Krsna sanctions, we cannot do anything." (Dialectical Spiritualism: A Vedic View of Western Philosophy)

Srila Prabhupada here is simply confirming that EVERYTHING comes from Krsna, and MUST be sanctioned by Krsna first so the jiva-souls can have, including "free will" because Krsna owns EVERYTHING, and is behind everything, making Him the Supreme Personality of Godhead and cause of ALL causes. Nothing can happen without the sanction of Krsna.

However, Krsna will ALWAYS sanction free will and the ability to choose, regardless of what is said above because without free will, the jiva-souls could never voluntary contribute in their own individual way to their relationship with Kṛṣṇa, which actually what makes it a "two-way" exchange.

Above Srila Prabhupada in his discussion with Syamasundara dasa, is simply making the point that everything is under the control of Krsna as the Bhagavad-gita teaches us-

"Not a blade of grass moves without the will of the Lord."

In other words, we only have free will because Krsna allows it. On the other hand, without free will the spiritual worlds would be impersonal and emotionally stagnant and cold like dead stone!

Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will!" (Aug 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)

All the individual personal contributions from the jiva-souls are forever expanding their unique ability of self expression in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana. This allows them to always make voluntary offerings to Krsna that forever increase and expand loving emotions in healthy "two-way" exchanges between Kṛṣṇa and the individual jīva-souls.

It is VERY important to understand that the individual jiva-souls are "PERSONS" with their own unique individual feelings of self expression existing always in both Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana.

It must be clearly understood for love to truly exist, each jiva-soul MUST have the free will to make their own choices, even if it means leaving Krsna, otherwise, there can be no question of genuine love or service without free will.

Paramahaṁsa -"So we can come to the spiritual world and return?"

Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes."

Paramahaṁsa - ''Fall down?''

Srila Prabhupada - ''Yes, as soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice," "Yes," Kṛṣṇa says, "yes, you go." Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Kṛṣṇa is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." It is free will." (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course, May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Bali Mardana - "An example of free will is someone can choose Kṛṣṇa or turn away? Is that example of free will?"

Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes, because if you accept Kṛṣṇa, then you must follow what Kṛṣṇa says. If you don't follow Kṛṣṇa, then what is the use of talking of Kṛṣṇa?

Kṛṣṇa says, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām: (BG 9.14) "Always chanting about Me." That is mahātmā. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ: (BG 9.13) Mahātmā, those who are devotee, they are not under these material influence. If he accepts Kṛṣṇa, he must abide by the injunction of Kṛṣṇa." (Morning Walk, Jan 22, 1974, Hawaii)

Srila Prabhupada – "So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, or one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that is not independence, that is force." (Los Angeles, June 23, 1975)

Cintamani (or the Cintamani Stone), is a wish-fulfilling jewel in Goloka Vrindavana.

Cintamani is ALWAYS aspired to achieve by great devotes because they ONLY desire to please Krsna.

To say you have no desires in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana is Impersonalism or Mayavadi nonsense, the jiva-souls NEVER loses having "desires" in the spiritual worlds because THOSE desires are forever expanding their service to always please Krsna.

It is foolish to think one becomes desireless in the spiritual worlds, only impersonalist try to extinguish their desires.

Actually devotees increase their desires in both Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana because they desire to ALWAYS please Krsna more and more.×÷.