Wednesday, November 25, 2020

The jiva-souls NEVER originated from a "clear sheet of consciousness" or the inactive Brahmajyoti or Brahman (impersonalism)

On the Spiritual level the individual jiva-souls (marginal living entities) were NEVER created.

The jiva-souls have always existed as Bhagavad-Gita As It Is Chapter 2 Text 20 teaches-

Bhagavad Gita - "For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain". (BG Chapter 2 Text 20)

Srila Prabhupada – "All spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha and in the material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities. There is no new soul. New and old are due to this material body, the soul is NEVER born and will NEVER die, so if there is no birth, how can there be new souls?'' (Letter to Jagadisa 7/9/1970)

Only the material creation (matter) is created and is always in a state of decay and decline unlike the perpetual Spiritual Worlds. 

Individual marginal living entities (jiva-souls) are expansions of Krsna known as the jiva-tattva, they have 78.125% of Krsna's qualities, which is having 50 of Krsna's 64 qualities. 

As explained above, the jiva-souls were NEVER created, an important point to understand.

"Just like the Sun-disc and the sun-rays cannot exist without each other, similarly Krsna and the jiva-souls cannot exist without each other". (Nectar of Devotion)

As said above the jiva-souls NEVER emerged from a "clear state of inactive consciousness" often called tatastha-sakti. 

The marginal living entities (jiva-souls) are NOT called tatastha-sakti in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana, tatastha-sakti is a name describing the "fallen" "conditioned" state of the jiva-souls in "the material creation and the impersonal Brahmajyoti".

The jiva-soul did NOT originate from tatastha-sakti, they originated from Vaikuntha.

Srila Prabhupada - "So this "material world" is the taṭastha, the conditioned characteristics, and the "Spiritual Worlds" are the "Personal" characteristics. So our effort is to get out of this taṭastha (conditioned characteristics) and enter the permanent characteristics (Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana). That is called spiritual elevation". (New York City, December 28, 1966)

Revatīnandana - "Srila Prabhupāda you very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the jiva-soul then goes into the brahmajyoti, he is considered still fallen. Still fallen. Does that means the whole brahmajyoti is composed of fallen souls? You see my question? If I go there, I'm a jīva-soul, and I go to the brahmajyoti I'm still fallen".

Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes".

Revatīnandana - "That means all jīva-souls there are also fallen souls?".

Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes". (Room Conversation August 17, 1971, London)

Srila Prabhupada - ''Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition, when fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness'' (Letter to: Revatinandana, Los Angeles 13 June, 1970)

As explained above, in the jiva-soul's original position, they have the same bodily features as Krsna, sat-cit-ananda-vigraha.

Which means a spiritual bodily vessel that is eternal, full of knowledge, full of bliss, and all held together by individual bodily form.

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually the spiritual body means eternal life of bliss and knowledge. This material body which we are possessing now, is neither eternal, nor blissful, nor full of knowledge. The spiritual body is full of knowledge, just opposite. So we can get that body next life, we have to cultivate how to get that type of body. Therefore the best intelligent person will try to get next body full of blissfulness, knowledge, and eternity". (Lecture on BG 2.14, Mexico, February 14, 1975)

Srila Prabhupada - “The relationship with Krsna is never lost, it is simply forgotten by the influence of maya, so it maybe regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new'' (Letter to Jagadisa 02/27/1970)

Devotee - "Srila Prabhupada why did Krsna give us free will if He knew we could fall down in the material world?"

Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will. But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone either. That is not life". (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France).

The Jīva-souls are a part and parcel of Krsna and cannot be separated from the Supreme, even though they have their own independence. 

Relationships with Krsna-

Pradyumna - "Do the five direct rasas take place between jīva-souls also when they are..."

Srila Prabhupāda - "Everything for jīva-souls, all relationship. Kṛṣṇa is one, the Supreme, and all the jīva-souls are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore the eternal relationship is there. Now they are exhibited in these twelve kinds of humor, either directly or indirectly. 

Jīva-soul, a part and parcel, cannot be separated from the Supreme. Sun and the light, electric bulb, and the diffusion of light, they cannot be separated. But this portion is covered. It appears darkness. 

So when it is covered, that is called māyā, and he thinks that "I have no relationship with God," or "I am God," "There is no God." This is māyā. He is covered. He cannot see. 

So he has to be treated by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness treatment, and the māyā will be separated, and he will see, "Ah, yes, I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa." Then he comes to the direct relationship". (May 10, 1969, Columbus, Ohio)

It is important to understand that no jiva-souls originate from the dormant inactive Brahmajyoti or Brahman. 

The jiva-souls often fall to impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti, but NEVER did the jiva-souls originate from that impersonal Brahmajyoti as Srila Prabhupada explains.

Srila Prabhupada - ''The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. So long as one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness, he does not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness, immediately he is fallen down’’. (Letter to: Revatinandana, Los Angeles 13 June, 1970)















Love can only exist in the Kingdom of God when there is free will, because without free will, there can never be voluntary loving exchanges, cooperation and reciprocation.

Krishna DOES control His devotee with love however, His devotee NEVER loses their unique personality, independence and free will that make them the individual contributing person they eternally are.

You see, if Krishna never gave the individual soul free will, there would be no meaningful loving relationship because love can not exist unless there is free will.

The "highest independence" is "choosing" to be fully dependent on Krishna.

However, that does NOT mean the jiva soul loses their free will, individual identity and unique personality, and Krishna takes full control of your individuality and makes all your decisions for you.

No, thats NOT love, that is impersonalism based on one not two.

In other words, in Krishna's Abode the jiva souls NEVER lose their individual identity when surrendering to Krishna and being fully dependent on Him.

This is why Krishna allows the jiva souls to have their free will because without it love can NEVER exist.

Srila Prabhupada has explained to us that Krishna is ALWAYS in control because He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and cause of ALL causes, but again this does not mean the jiva souls lose their sense of individual self.

Therefore Krishna always gives sanction to the jiva souls so they can have their little independence and free will that Prabhupada explains here -

Syamasundara dasa - ''So we have no free will?"

Srila Prabhupada - ''Not without the sanction of Krsna. Without Him, we cannot do anything. Therefore He is the ultimate cause''. (Dialectical Spiritualism: A Vedic View).

What Srila Prabhupada is saying here, is the individual soul cannot have their little independence or free will without the sanction of Krsna and He gives that sanction ALWAYS because if He didn't, then a loving contributing relationship with Krishna is not possible.

Ultimately it is Krishna’s will alone that allows the jiva soul to have their freedom because He knows by not giving them freedom, then the jiva souls can NEVER personally experience genuine selfless loving exchanges with Krishna fthat are only possible when there is free will.

Krishna does NOT want to be surrounded by mindless loveless drones orx yes men or women, those who do not know how to freely express their own unique individual personality as the independent persons they are eternally.

Therefore "Free will" ALWAYS does exists as part and parcel of the constitutional make up of every marginal living entity (jiva soul) that Krishna ALWAYS allows so they can experience loving exchanges with Him.

Having free will is the only way to experience love and knowing what genuine loving exchanges are with Krishna.

So it should be clear that Free will DOES eternally exists and Krishna allows it ALWAYS because without it love can NEVER exist as already explained.

Therefore "Free will" or the ability to "choose" is eternally  an asset of the jiva souls (marginal living entities) and part of their eternal constitution without beginning or end.

However, free will in its full potential, is ONLY fully experienced in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavan, which is the jiva souls original perpetual home.

Devotee - "Srila Prabhupada why did Krishna give us free will if He knew we may miss use it?"

Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will! But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone either. That is not life". (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)

Srila Prabhupada - ''As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice," "Yes," Kṛṣṇa says, "yes, you can go." Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Kṛṣṇa is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." It is free will''. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course, May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Devotee – "In Srimad Bhagavatam it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?” Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?”

Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C).

As Srila Prabhupada explains below, the relationship between Krishna and the individual soul is never a one way relationship that denies personal contributions and choices, no, love is ALWAYS based on the reciprocation between two because love can only exist when there is two as Prabhupada explains-

Srila Prabhupāda – ''Unless there are two persons, where is the question of love? Love means two persons, then there is exchange, then there is love. I must deal with you open-hearted, you must deal with me open-hearted, then there is love. So if you want to love Kṛṣṇa, God, then these things must be there". (August 9, 1976, Tehran)

Srila Prabhupada – “So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, or one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that is not independence, that is force.” (Los Angeles, June 23, 1975)

Srila Prabhupada - “Unless there is a possibility of misusing our free will, there is no question of freedom.” (Dialectical Spiritualism, Critique of Descartes)

Ultimately each individual soul is a unique person who can choose for themselves to voluntarily serve Krishna the Supreme Personality of Godhead and cause of all causes, or ignore Him.

As Prabhupada explains, Krishna never forces you to surrender to Him, never forces you to love Him, that must be voluntary otherwise love can never exist.

Srila Prabhupada – "Krishna NEVER forces you to love Him, that MUST be voluntary. (Melbourne June 25, 1974)

Srila Prabhupada – "Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force, no, Krishna does not want to become a lover like that." (July 8, 1976)

In Bhagavad Gita, Krishna DOES promise one will NEVER fall from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana on returning back home, back to Godhead, and yes, Krishna always keeps His promise.

However, the promise Krishna makes, that one will never again fall down to the material creation once they have returned to the Spiritual World, is from Krishna's side, it is His promise.

Does this mean the jiva soul must accept and can NEVER choose to leave Krishna again "even if they want to?"

This idea that once reaching Vaikuntha one never again falls down is true for most souls, but not all!

Therefore those devotees who say one will never again fall down to the material creation once returning to Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavan, is true for most, but there are a small minority, less than 10%, who DO choose to re-enter the material creation.

So those who believe no one in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana can ever again fall down to the material creation, no matter who they are, including many big Gurus and sannyasis in different Sangas, have misunderstood Scripture and have not understood the concept of free will.

The fact is the jiva soul CAN fall from both Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana at anytime if they choose to do so.

And again Prabhupada has explained that the figure of those jiva souls who again may choose to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavan, is at less than 10%

This should be easy to understand because ultimately love is not a one way street as explained above, love is based on the reciprocation between two.

Therefore, we must NOT forget the jiva soul's side too because the jiva souls ALSO have THEIR choices, it is not just Krishna's decision who comes and goes to Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavan, the jiva souls have their choices too.

This is because real love is based on respecting the feeling, decisions and choices of others. Therefore in a relationship, the jiva soul is always striving to establish good exchanges of feelings and reciprocation with Krishna, making the relationship what it is supposed to be, a two way exchange.

So you see here, it is NOT just up to Krishna and His promise because the jiva souls have THEIR choice as well.

And Krishna allows this because he wants the jiva souls to think for themselves and make their own decisions by having their own choices too otherwise love can not exist.

An important point to understand.

Not even Krishna will force His will on the jiva soul even though He could if He wanted too because He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and cause of all causes.

However, if He did force His will and made every jiva soul drones with no free will, then how can their be genuine love as Prabhupada explains, we would just be like stone.

By promising He will NEVER let the jiva souls fall down into the material creation, can be seen as interfering with the jiva soul's constitutional sovereignty as an independent free thinking individual jiva soul.

Free will and the individuality of the jiva soul allows them to choose to be with Krishna or ignore Him, and yes Krishna DOES allows this because for love to truly exist, He must always allow free will.

This is because, they too are entitled to THEIR choice of serving or not serving Krishna.

Krishna will NEVER make that decision for the jiva soul, otherwise one's sense of free will is violated, and there can be no question of love if not based on free will.

The jiva soul is always given the right to choose for themselves so they can experience love with Krishna.

Ultimately in the end, it is the jiva soul's choice too and NOT just Krishna's because Krishna ONLY wants loving servants around Him who "choose" through their own free will to serve and love Him.

Not forced to serve Him by saying "once you are in Goloka Vrindavana, NEVER again will you fall down".

No, that is NOT Krishna's call, it is also the jiva's choice to REMAIN there as servant as weĺl.

The relationship between servant and Master is NEVER oneway, it is perpetually relationship based on "reciprocation".

The promise by Krishna that the jiva soul will never again fall down into the material world, is from His side but ultimately it is NOT only Krishna's decision, it is also up to the jiva soul too.

After all, each jiva soul is an independent individual with 78.125% of Krishna's qualities (which is having 50 of Krishna’s 64 attributes)

Each individual jiva soul never loses their individuality of being a unique person who makes their own chooses.

Krishna never violates the jiva soul's individual rights by forcibly makeing choices for them as Prabhupada explains below, if He did then  love can never exist.

The jiva souls must decide for themselves to serve Krishna if love truly exists.

So the conclusion is, Krishna does NOT interfere with the jiva soul's free will to make their own choices because Krishna does not want to force the jiva soul to surrender.

Srila Prabhupada  - "In Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver". (Washington DC July 1976)

What Srila Prabhupada explains below is also a very important point-

Srila Prabhupada - ”So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. 

Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?

Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.

Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”

Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.)*






















Sunday, November 22, 2020

Free will exists because Krsna allows it, just so the jiva-souls can make their own voluntary contributions. Only by Krsna’s sanction do we have the free will to do this.

Free will, or the ability to choose and contribute in your own unique way, is eternally part and parcel of the jiva-soul's (marginal living entities) natural constitution and ALWAYS exists without beginning or end in the Spiritual Planets. 

However, free will in its full potential, is ONLY fully experienced in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavan, which is the jiva-soul's original perpetual home.

The material creation exists for those jiva-souls who choose to fall down from the spiritual world's of Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.  

However, the material worlds are NOT the real natural home of the jiva-souls, and the jiva-soul's full freedom is never experienced in the material creation due to being covered by material energy, therefore, their natural home is NEVER in the material worlds.

Devotee - "Srila Prabhupada why did Krsna give us free will if He knew we may rebel and miss use it and choose to enter the material creation?"

Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will! But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone either. That is not life". (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)

Srila Prabhupada - ''As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice," "Yes," Kṛṣṇa says, "yes, you can go." Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Kṛṣṇa is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." It is free will''. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course, May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Devotee – "In Srimad Bhagavatam it says that Krsna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krsna did not want us to come, why are we here?” Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?”

Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C).

As Srila Prabhupada explains below, the relationship between Krsna and the individual jiva-soul is never a one way relationship that denies personal contributions and choices, no, love is ALWAYS based on the reciprocation between "two" because love can only exist when there are "two" engaging in loving exchanges as Prabhupada explains-

Srila Prabhupāda – ''Unless there are two persons, where is the question of love? Love means two persons, then there is exchange, then there is love. I must deal with you open-hearted, you must deal with me open-hearted, then there is love. So if you want to love Kṛṣṇa, God, then these things must be there". (August 9, 1976, Tehran)

Srila Prabhupada – “So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, or one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that is not independence, that is force.” (Los Angeles, June 23, 1975)

Srila Prabhupada - “So, unless there is a possibility of misusing our free will, there is no question of freedom.” (Dialectical Spiritualism, Critique of Descartes)

Ultimately each individual soul is a unique person who can choose for themselves to voluntarily serve Krsna the Supreme Personality of Godhead and cause of all causes, or ignore Him. 

As Prabhupada explains, Krsna never forces you to surrender to Him, never forces you to love Him, that must be voluntary.

Srila Prabhupada – "Krsna NEVER forces you to love Him, that MUST be voluntary. (Melbourne June 25, 1974)

Srila Prabhupada – "Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force, no, Krsna does not want to become a lover like that." (July 8, 1976)

In the following conversation Srila Prabhupada is explaining to us that Krsna is ALWAYS in control because He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and cause of ALL causes.

This includes allowing the jiva-souls to have their independence and free will explained here-

Syamasundara dasa - ''Does the individual soul have a little independence to choose?"

Srila Prabhupada - ''No, Bhagavad-Gita states that when the individual soul wants to act, Krsna gives the orders. Man proposes, and God disposes". (Dialectical Spiritualism: A Vedic View).

What Srila Prabhupada is saying here, is the individual soul cannot have their little independence or free will without the sanction of Krsna first. This is because Krsna is the cause of ALL causes, it is His will alone that allows the jiva-souls to have their freedom.

Syamasundara dasa - ''So we have no free will?"

Srila Prabhupada - ''Not without the sanction of Krsna. Without Him, we cannot do anything. Therefore He is the ultimate cause''. (Dialectical Spiritualism: A Vedic View).

So free will exists as part of the constitutional make up of every marginal living entity (jiva soul) because Krsna allows it, only by His sanction do we have free will.

This is an obvious and only conclusion because without free will, there can NEVER be genuine loving personal contributions, exchanges and reciprocation with Krsna, we would simply be like dead stone as Prabhupada has explained.*.*.