Actually there are some living entities who NEVER fall down from their position in Vaikuntha and Goloka
When we talk of fall down from Goloka, it will always be a sensitive subject because some will always believe once in the Goloka pastimes of Lord Krishna, one never falls down and the fact is, in most cases they don’t.
Actually there are some living entities who NEVER fall down from their position in Vaikuntha and Goloka or even if they enter the mahat-tattva because they are not marginal like us; these billions upon billions of Living Entities are not like us (jiva-tattva [tatastha-s’akti] or marginal living entities) they are all Vishnu Tattva. They are everywhere in Goloka and Vaikuntha, some as Gopis, Cow heard boys, Village elders or residents etc and some come disguised in various bodily forms to the material worlds.
The Caitanya Caritamrita explains this further, so many of Lord Caitanya’s associates are all Vishnu-tattva. There are Vishnu-tattvas who have manifested many of their unique personalities at the same time during Lord Caitanya’s lila on this planet but only our purity or the causeless mercy of Lord Caitanya and His humble selfless devotees can begin to understand and appreciate such transcendental mysterious.
Srila Prabhupada - “Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila–both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya (impersonal Brahmajyoti) or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya’s clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead” Letter to Madhudvisa Swami in Australia 1972.
What does Srila Prabhupada mean by his following comment? -“Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery”.
From other comments from Srila Prabhupada, we can understand that the above comment ONLY refers to where we have previously come from, was it from Krishna-lila or from the impersonal Brahmajyoti (Brahmasayujya)?
What is meant here is the Brahmasayujya dormant condition of the baddha-jiva consciousness was attained either in this mahat-tattva (material creation) or from a previous one after much austerity to become totally inactively and free from gross and subtle material bodies and therefore attaining a dreamless dream state as part of the collective impersonal Brahmajyoti.
This is what the impersonal Brahmajyoti is, a collective of individual baddha-jiva souls vibrating inactively who have the appearance of living bright effulgence light particles or rays. Also if one still has material desires at the dissolution of the material creation, then they are temporary placed within the Body of Maha-Vishnu in a dormant state until placed again into a new maha-tattva from the glance of Maha-Vishnu as described in the Srimad Bhagavatam
Because this condition of merging into the impersonal Brahmajyoti or the Body of Maha-Vishnu is temporary, the baddha-jiva will eventually AGAIN fall and begin their material embodied existence? This what Srila Prabhupada is referring to when he says, “Brahmasayujya may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery”.
Srila Prabhupada is NOT saying that we can ‘originate’ from the impersonal Brahmajyoti as some claim, he is not saying that at all, he is only referring to our present status which means that in some previous birth in the material creation, we may have fallen out of the impersonal Brahmajyoti dormant consciousness (Brahmasayujya), that was previously attained from the material creation after great difficult austerity to suppress material desires (usually the impersonalist yogis).
Or we may have never been to the impersonal Brahmajyoti because we had previously, some millions of year’s ago, come down directly from Goloka as nitya-baddha.
As far as our ‘origin’ is concerned, Srila Prabhupada has previously answered that very clearly. Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973
Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we ‘originated’ from the impersonal Brahmajyoti (Brahmasayujya) and even the Body of Maha-Vishnu who plants the fallen ‘baddha-jivas’ (the lower secondary state of the marginal living entity) into His mahat-tattva creation.
Srila Prabhupada – “Brahmasayujya (impersonal Brahmajyoti) is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss”
Darkness cannot be left over in the presents of light because light dissipates all darkness. In other words while there is light (nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body), darkness (nitya-baddha condition) does not exist.
This means that when one’s ‘awareness’ is AGAIN situated as the eternal presents of their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the nitya-baddha sub-conscious darkness in the material creation no longer exists.
Srila Prabhupada - “As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself.
In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” disappears. But the seer remains.
Now he is in his original position. Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things.
http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=170123
Several do not appreciate the accurate details of how we actually did come down from Goloka due to miss using our free will. We certainly did not come down as our nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body to chase our material desires.
The truth is we are perpetually in Krishna’s pastimes as nitya-siddha right now, within that eternal presence of selfless blissful devotion where nothing factual can perish however, because selfish desires are not a factual reality and not part of the make-up of Goloka or Vaikuntha, they are projected as a spin off reality to mahat-tattva (material creation) that is under the jurisdiction of Maha-Vishnu.
Such self-absorbed mundane self centred thoughts and coveted dreams convince us we are not there with Krishna (as we desired) even though we are ALWAYS with Krishna. In this way, such egocentric dreams and thoughts, like a veil, block out our connection to Krishna by moving us ‘sub-consciously’ to the separated mahat-tattva reality of Maha-Vishnu where we become bogged down in ignorance due to being covered by various subtle and gross material bodies.
We therefore experience this secondary nature (nitya-baddha) to our marginal nitya-siddha identity simply because we choose to do so that places us outside of Goloka and within the material creation.
Even though material realities (the mahat-tattva) are real, there temporary nature makes them an illusion in the face of the perpetual presence of Goloka. And it’s also got nothing to do with sleeping on a bed in Goloka and imaging we are in the material world as some foolishly and disdainfully believe. No, it’s not that type of dreaming at all. Their fabrication of the ‘sleeping on a bed in Goloka’ philosophy of how the jiva falls from Goloka is absolute nonsense!!
The understanding of the word ‘dream’ in regards to the marginal living entity falling from Goloka is significant in Srila Prabhupada’s preaching yet has nothing to do with ‘sleeping’ anywhere; it’s all to do with time. because we don’t really fall, we only think we do as Srila Prabhupada has taught us.
The proper understanding is this. It’s all to do with the ‘eternal presence’ of the imperishable Vaikuntha’s and Goloka compared to the ‘past, present and future’ of the perishable material creation of Maha-Vishnu. The marginal living entity, due to free will and choice, falls out of synch with the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka simply caused by their non-Krsna Consciousness
Lord Krishna states that the constitutional nature of all marginal living beings is that they are eternal servants of the Lord. So to say that ‘conditioned’ souls have never been ‘unconditioned’ in Goloka-Vrndavana is incorrect.
Srila Prabhupada – ““Of course, everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa.
By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi-perfection of one’s constitutional position. We have an intimate relationship with the Lord, and because we are all qualitatively one the whole purpose of Bhagavad-gita is to revive our sanatana occupation, or sanatana dharma, which is the eternal occupation of the living entity.
The Lord descends to reclaim all of these fallen, conditioned souls to call them back to the sanatana eternal sky so that the sanatana living entities may regain their eternal sanatana positions of eternal association with the Lord.” Bhagavad-gita, Introduction.
As in our case in the material world, we are presently ‘eternally conditioned’ (nitya-baddha) because long, long, long, long ago we made that choice to forget Krishna and simultaneously the ‘awareness’ of our nitya-siddha (eternally liberated) body we serve Krishna as.
When again we achieve deliverance from this material world due to the mercy of pure devotees, we will enter Goloka AGAIN by the method of becoming ‘aware’ of our genuine nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body or in simple terms, we begin to make a distinction of who we really our that separates us from the material dream condition (nitya-baddha fallen consciousness).
Alan Ginsberg – “How did the material covering begin?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Begin?”
Alan Ginsberg – “As the material shadow. How did we fall into that?
Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. Yes. That is very natural. . . Because jiva, although para-sakti, he has got independence. So when he wants to imitate Krishna”.
Alan Ginsberg – “… How did we fall into that?”
Srila Prabhupada – “In the spiritual world, Krishna is the enjoyer. And all others, they are enjoyed–predominator and the predominating. The Lord is the predominating, so there is no disagreement. There they know, ‘The Lord is predominator; we have to serve.’ When this service attitude is impaired, that–‘Why serve Krishna? Why not ourself?’–that is Maya”. - Room conversation with Allen Ginsberg in Columbus, OH 5-14-69
Srila Prabhupada - “As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” disappears. But the seer remains.” http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=170123
Actually there are some living entities who NEVER fall down from their position in Vaikuntha and Goloka or even if they enter the mahat-tattva because they are not marginal like us; these billions upon billions of Living Entities are not like us (jiva-tattva [tatastha-s’akti] or marginal living entities) they are all Vishnu Tattva. They are everywhere in Goloka and Vaikuntha, some as Gopis, Cow heard boys, Village elders or residents etc and some come disguised in various bodily forms to the material worlds.
The Caitanya Caritamrita explains this further, so many of Lord Caitanya’s associates are all Vishnu-tattva. There are Vishnu-tattvas who have manifested many of their unique personalities at the same time during Lord Caitanya’s lila on this planet but only our purity or the causeless mercy of Lord Caitanya and His humble selfless devotees can begin to understand and appreciate such transcendental mysterious.
Srila Prabhupada - “Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila–both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya (impersonal Brahmajyoti) or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya’s clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead” Letter to Madhudvisa Swami in Australia 1972.
What does Srila Prabhupada mean by his following comment? -“Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery”.
From other comments from Srila Prabhupada, we can understand that the above comment ONLY refers to where we have previously come from, was it from Krishna-lila or from the impersonal Brahmajyoti (Brahmasayujya)?
What is meant here is the Brahmasayujya dormant condition of the baddha-jiva consciousness was attained either in this mahat-tattva (material creation) or from a previous one after much austerity to become totally inactively and free from gross and subtle material bodies and therefore attaining a dreamless dream state as part of the collective impersonal Brahmajyoti.
This is what the impersonal Brahmajyoti is, a collective of individual baddha-jiva souls vibrating inactively who have the appearance of living bright effulgence light particles or rays. Also if one still has material desires at the dissolution of the material creation, then they are temporary placed within the Body of Maha-Vishnu in a dormant state until placed again into a new maha-tattva from the glance of Maha-Vishnu as described in the Srimad Bhagavatam
Because this condition of merging into the impersonal Brahmajyoti or the Body of Maha-Vishnu is temporary, the baddha-jiva will eventually AGAIN fall and begin their material embodied existence? This what Srila Prabhupada is referring to when he says, “Brahmasayujya may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery”.
Srila Prabhupada is NOT saying that we can ‘originate’ from the impersonal Brahmajyoti as some claim, he is not saying that at all, he is only referring to our present status which means that in some previous birth in the material creation, we may have fallen out of the impersonal Brahmajyoti dormant consciousness (Brahmasayujya), that was previously attained from the material creation after great difficult austerity to suppress material desires (usually the impersonalist yogis).
Or we may have never been to the impersonal Brahmajyoti because we had previously, some millions of year’s ago, come down directly from Goloka as nitya-baddha.
As far as our ‘origin’ is concerned, Srila Prabhupada has previously answered that very clearly. Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973
Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we ‘originated’ from the impersonal Brahmajyoti (Brahmasayujya) and even the Body of Maha-Vishnu who plants the fallen ‘baddha-jivas’ (the lower secondary state of the marginal living entity) into His mahat-tattva creation.
Srila Prabhupada – “Brahmasayujya (impersonal Brahmajyoti) is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss”
Darkness cannot be left over in the presents of light because light dissipates all darkness. In other words while there is light (nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body), darkness (nitya-baddha condition) does not exist.
This means that when one’s ‘awareness’ is AGAIN situated as the eternal presents of their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the nitya-baddha sub-conscious darkness in the material creation no longer exists.
Srila Prabhupada - “As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself.
In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” disappears. But the seer remains.
Now he is in his original position. Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things.
http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=170123
Several do not appreciate the accurate details of how we actually did come down from Goloka due to miss using our free will. We certainly did not come down as our nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body to chase our material desires.
The truth is we are perpetually in Krishna’s pastimes as nitya-siddha right now, within that eternal presence of selfless blissful devotion where nothing factual can perish however, because selfish desires are not a factual reality and not part of the make-up of Goloka or Vaikuntha, they are projected as a spin off reality to mahat-tattva (material creation) that is under the jurisdiction of Maha-Vishnu.
Such self-absorbed mundane self centred thoughts and coveted dreams convince us we are not there with Krishna (as we desired) even though we are ALWAYS with Krishna. In this way, such egocentric dreams and thoughts, like a veil, block out our connection to Krishna by moving us ‘sub-consciously’ to the separated mahat-tattva reality of Maha-Vishnu where we become bogged down in ignorance due to being covered by various subtle and gross material bodies.
We therefore experience this secondary nature (nitya-baddha) to our marginal nitya-siddha identity simply because we choose to do so that places us outside of Goloka and within the material creation.
Even though material realities (the mahat-tattva) are real, there temporary nature makes them an illusion in the face of the perpetual presence of Goloka. And it’s also got nothing to do with sleeping on a bed in Goloka and imaging we are in the material world as some foolishly and disdainfully believe. No, it’s not that type of dreaming at all. Their fabrication of the ‘sleeping on a bed in Goloka’ philosophy of how the jiva falls from Goloka is absolute nonsense!!
The understanding of the word ‘dream’ in regards to the marginal living entity falling from Goloka is significant in Srila Prabhupada’s preaching yet has nothing to do with ‘sleeping’ anywhere; it’s all to do with time. because we don’t really fall, we only think we do as Srila Prabhupada has taught us.
The proper understanding is this. It’s all to do with the ‘eternal presence’ of the imperishable Vaikuntha’s and Goloka compared to the ‘past, present and future’ of the perishable material creation of Maha-Vishnu. The marginal living entity, due to free will and choice, falls out of synch with the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka simply caused by their non-Krsna Consciousness
Lord Krishna states that the constitutional nature of all marginal living beings is that they are eternal servants of the Lord. So to say that ‘conditioned’ souls have never been ‘unconditioned’ in Goloka-Vrndavana is incorrect.
Srila Prabhupada – ““Of course, everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa.
By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi-perfection of one’s constitutional position. We have an intimate relationship with the Lord, and because we are all qualitatively one the whole purpose of Bhagavad-gita is to revive our sanatana occupation, or sanatana dharma, which is the eternal occupation of the living entity.
The Lord descends to reclaim all of these fallen, conditioned souls to call them back to the sanatana eternal sky so that the sanatana living entities may regain their eternal sanatana positions of eternal association with the Lord.” Bhagavad-gita, Introduction.
As in our case in the material world, we are presently ‘eternally conditioned’ (nitya-baddha) because long, long, long, long ago we made that choice to forget Krishna and simultaneously the ‘awareness’ of our nitya-siddha (eternally liberated) body we serve Krishna as.
When again we achieve deliverance from this material world due to the mercy of pure devotees, we will enter Goloka AGAIN by the method of becoming ‘aware’ of our genuine nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body or in simple terms, we begin to make a distinction of who we really our that separates us from the material dream condition (nitya-baddha fallen consciousness).
Alan Ginsberg – “How did the material covering begin?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Begin?”
Alan Ginsberg – “As the material shadow. How did we fall into that?
Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. Yes. That is very natural. . . Because jiva, although para-sakti, he has got independence. So when he wants to imitate Krishna”.
Alan Ginsberg – “… How did we fall into that?”
Srila Prabhupada – “In the spiritual world, Krishna is the enjoyer. And all others, they are enjoyed–predominator and the predominating. The Lord is the predominating, so there is no disagreement. There they know, ‘The Lord is predominator; we have to serve.’ When this service attitude is impaired, that–‘Why serve Krishna? Why not ourself?’–that is Maya”. - Room conversation with Allen Ginsberg in Columbus, OH 5-14-69
Srila Prabhupada - “As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” disappears. But the seer remains.” http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=170123
We were originally ‘aware’ of ‘always’ being with Krsna, (nitya-siddha) but we chose to forget that fact and become ‘unaware’ of our perpetual nitya-siddha body and service to Krishna because we made the choice to not service Krishna which was the beginning of our fall down to our nitya-baddha secondary condition that enters the material creation.
ReplyDeleteWe eternally exists independently, not in some place in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable superior energy (Lord Krishna's Goloka), or take shelter of the inferior material energy (mahat-tattva creation built by Maha-Vishnu) This is an important point to understand
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