Free will.
Devotee - "Srila Prabhupada why did Krishna give us free will if He knew we would miss use it?"
Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will! But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone either. That is not life". (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)
Free will is something never acquired, nor ever given up or surrendered in the Spiritual World as ignorant fools believe.
Free will is eternally part and parcel of the jiva souls (marginal living entities) natural constitution and therefore ALWAYS exists without beginning or end in the Spiritual Planets.
However, free will in its full potential, is ONLY fully experienced in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavan, which is the jiva souls original perpetual home.
Only in the material creation is free will completely covered over restricted and suppressed by material nature and karma.
Losing one's free will (only covered over and never really lost) therefore is only experienced if the jiva soul foolishly chooses to enter the darkness of the material creation and be confined to temporary material bodily containers.
Therefore the jiva souls full Spiritual potential of being a free individual person in the Spiritual world serving Krishna, is mostly lost (forgotten) if they choose to enter the material creation.
All jiva souls originally HAVE free will as part of their perpetual constitution make up, but can be forgotten (not ever lost) if they choose to enter the material creation.
Therefore in the material creation, the jiva souls original expression of freedom (free will) becomes covered over, suppressed and forgotten and must be AGAIN revived so the jiva soul is reinstated to their original spiritual position.
This revival is only possible by the process of Krishna Consciousness under the guidance of a bonafide Spiritual Master.
Devotee – "In Srimad Bhagavatam, it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?” Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?”
Srila Prabhupada - “That means YOU lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C).
The jiva souls in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana are forever expanding their expression of individuality with personal offerings based on free will and selfless loving reciprocation with Krishna, it is NEVER a one sided master/slave relationship with the God.
Srila Prabhupada - "Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force, no, Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!" (Washington DC July 8, 1976)
Real love or Bhakti is reciprocal, as said above, it is NEVER a one way street where surrender to Krishna takes away one's sense of self, individuality and personal contributions.
This is important to understand because each individual jiva-soul has their own independent personality, sense of self and unique personality and characteristics that THEY only have, that is part and parcel of each individual marginal living entities make up as the independent unique "person" they are eternally.
Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. "So God does not interfere with your independence”. (Conversation Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974)
In Bhagavad Gita As It Is Krishna promises the jiva-souls they will NEVER fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana to the material creation, and yes, Krishna will always keeps His promise!
However, Krishna's promise of NEVER falling down to the material creation once there, is from Krishna's point of view, so does the jiva soul also have to accept His promise as final? Do they also have a choice?
In other words, does this mean the jiva-souls have no choice and can NEVER "choose" to leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana even if they want to leave?
Krishna's promise, confirmed by many past Acharays who agree that once reaching Vaikuntha the jiva-soul will never again fall down to the material World, is true for most souls, BUT NOT ALL OF THEM.
Those great souls who quote Krishna's promise from Bhagavad Gita ARE right for the majority of jiva-souls, which is about 90% in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana who NEVER do fall down or leave to enter the material creation, but NOT all souls!
This is because each jiva-soul has THEIR own free will and independent thinking, this means it is THEIR choice if they stay or leave and NOT just Krishnas.
In other words, Krishna's promise is NOT binding or absolute law with all living entities because the jiva-souls have free will making it THEIR choice too.
Srila Prabhupada explains Krishna's promise and gives the proper explanation in full saying a small minority of jiva-souls do choose Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana and puts that figure at less than 10%.
So why do some souls fall down?
To understand this one must realize that ultimately LOVE is not just a one way street or dictatorship, it is based on reciprocation and loving exhanges between two, not just one meaning not just Krishna.
Therefore we must NOT forget the jiva-soul's right of expression too, the jiva-souls ALSO have THEIR choices and say too expressed from THEIR point of view.
This is because love is always based on reciprocation, a two way street between two.
Only impersonalists preach that "surrender" means giving up free will, individuality and that everyone should become little Krishna imitaters.
It is a fact Krishna can do anything He wants to do however, if Krishna forced His will and complete dominance on the jiva-souls, then they would be no better than dead stone Prabhupada tells us.
Such absolute one way control by this kind of God will only totally destroy the jiva-soul's independent expression of individuality and there natural eternal constitution right of self expression and free will (freedom).
And if Krishna DID force His will and FORCE the jiva-souls to love Him, then how can that be real genuine love as Prabhupada explains above.
By promising He will NEVER let the jiva-soul fall by forcing the jiva-soul to comply, can be seen as interfering with the free will and individuality of the jiva-soul.
This is because, they too are entitled to THEIR choice of serving or even not serving Krishna if they choose.
The fact is Krishna will NEVER make that decision for the jiva, otherwise one's sense of free will is violated, and there can be no question of love if the jiva-soul has no right to choose for themselves.
Ultimately in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana, it is also the jiva's choice of how to serve and NOT just Krishna's because He ONLY wants loving servants who "choose" to be with Him through their own free will and personal offerings, to serve and love Him voluntarily.
Not forced to serve Him by saying "once you are in Goloka Vrindavana, NEVER again will you fall down".
No, that is NOT Krishna's call, it is NOT His choice, it is also the jiva-soul's choice to REMAIN there as servant of the servant as weĺl, or even leave if they want to.
The relationship between servant and Master is NEVER oneway, it is perpetually relationship based on "reciprocation", based on loving exchanges between TWO.
The promise by Krishna that the jiva-soul will never again fall down into the material world, is from His point of view as explained above.
Ultimately it is NOT only Krishna's will and complete control, no, it is a joint decision between the jiva-souls and Krishna.
The Spiritual Worlds are NOT dictatorships where one is a yes man or women denying their personal contributions and offerings.
And yes, over 90% of jiva-soul's do "choose" to accept Krishna's promise and NEVER leave the Spiritual Worlds.
This means less than 10% "do choose" to leave, and that is their right.
Sadly only immature sentimental fools cannot understand this fact regardless of who they are.
After all each jiva is an independent individual with 78.125% of Krishna's qualities and attributes with their own personality, sense of self and unique identity.*.
The promise Krishna makes, that one will never again fall down to the material creation once they have returned to the Spiritual World, is from Krishna's side, it is His promise.
ReplyDeleteDoes this mean the jiva can NEVER choose to leave Krishna again "even if they want to?"
This idea that once reaching Vaikuntha one will never again falls down is true for most souls however, not all, therefore those devotees who say that, no matter who they are, are wrong, souls DO fall from both Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana if they choose.
And Prabhupada puts the figure of those who choose to leave Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana at less than 10%
Ultimately, love is not a one way street, it is based on reciprocation.
Therefore, we must NOT forget the jivatma's side too, the jivatma must ALSO have THEIR choice and say as well, and agree from THEIR side also.
This is because love is a reciprocation, a two way street and NOT just up to Krishna, not even He can ever force His will on the jiva.
And if He did, then how can their be genuine love as Prabhupada explains.
Devotee - "Srila Prabhupada, why did God give us free will if He knew we would fall down in the material world?"
Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will. But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone. That is not life". (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)
Srila Prabhupada - ”So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.)
In Bhagavad Gita Krishna DOES promise that one will NEVER again fall from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana when there, and yes, He always keeps His promise!
ReplyDeleteHowever, Krishna's promise that one will NEVER again fall down to the material creation once they have returned to the Spiritual World, is from Krishna's point of view.
This is Krishna's promise that the jiva soul will never again enter the material creation.
However, does this mean the jiva-soul can NEVER choose to leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana even if they want to leave?
This promise, confirmed by many past Acharays, who agree that once reaching Vaikuntha, one will never again fall down to the material World, is true for most souls, but not all.
Those great souls who quote Krishna's promise from Bhagavad Gita ARE right for the majority of jiva-souls, which is about 90% in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana, but NOT all souls because each jiva-soul has THEIR free will meaning it is also their choice and NOT just Krishna's.
In other words, Krishna's promise is NOT binding or absolute law because of the jiva-souls free will, it is THEIR choice too.
Srila Prabhupada explains Krishna's promise and gives the proper explanation in full saying a small minority DO fall down and puts the figure of those who choose to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana at less than 10%
So why do some fall down?
Ultimately, LOVE is not a one way street or dictatorship, it is based on reciprocation and loving exhanges.
Therefore, we must NOT forget the jiva-soul's side too, the jiva-soul ALSO has THEIR choice and say from THEIR point of view also.
This is because love is always based on reciprocation, a two way street.
Krishna can do anything He wants but to force His will on the jiva-soul will only destroy the jiva-soul's independent expression of individuality and their eternal quality of free will.
And if Krishna did force His will and make the jiva-soul love Him, then how can that be real genuine love as Prabhupada explains below.
By promising He will NEVER let the jiva-soul fall by forcing the jiva-soul to comply, can be seen as interfering with the free will and individuality of the jiva-soul.
This is because, they too are entitled to THEIR choice of serving or even not serving Krishna if they choose.
Krishna will NEVER make that decision for the jiva, otherwise one's sense of free will is violated, and there can be no question of love if the jiva-soul has no right to choose for themselves.
Ultimately in the end, it is the jiva's choice and NOT just Krishna's because He ONLY wants loving servants who "choose" through their own free will, to serve and love Him.
Not forced to serve Him by saying "once you are in Goloka Vrindavana, NEVER again will you fall down".
No, that is NOT Krishna's call, it is also the jiva's choice to REMAIN there as servant as weĺl.
The relationship between servant and Master is NEVER oneway, it is perpetually relationship based on "reciprocation".
The promise by Krishna that the jiva-soul will never again fall down into the material world, is from His point of view as explained above.
However, ultimately it is NOT only Krishna's conclusion, no, it is a joint decision between the jiva-souls and Krishna with over 90% of jiva-soul's "choosing" to accept Krishna's promise and NEVER leave the Spiritual Worlds again a n.
This means less than 10% do choose to leave.
After all each jiva is an independent individual with 78.125% of Krishna's qualities and attributes with their own personality, sense of self and unique identity.**.
Srila Prabhupada - "Unless there is the choice to misuse free will, then there is no question of free will".
ReplyDeleteSrila Prabhupada - "Free will means that you can act wrongly. That is free will. Unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then? If I act only one sided, that means I have no free will. Because we act sometimes wrongly, that means free will."
Hayagriva - "A man may know better but still act wrongly".
Srila Prabhupada -"Yes".
Hayagriva - "Yes".
Srila Prabhupada - "But that is free will. He misuses his. Just like a thief, he knows that his stealing, it is bad, but still he does it. That is free will. He cannot check his greediness, so in spite of his knowing that he is doing wrong thing—he will be punished, he knows; he has seen another thief, he was punished, he was put into prison— everything he knows, but still he steals. Why?Misuse of free will. Unless there is misuse of free will, there is no question of free will. (Excerpt from: Philosophy Discussions with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada – Rene Descartes)
For love to truly exist with the jiva-tattva (jivatma or jiva-tattva soul) MUST have free will in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana, the Kingdoms of God ALWAYS, therefore returning there is not necessarily permanent Prabhupada explains here.
ReplyDeleteSyamasundara - "But can we predict that the process (returning back home back to Godhead) will be permanent? Can we predict that? Just like many prisoners leave the prison, but some come back''
Srila Prabhupada - "No, there is no permanent effect because we have got little independence. There is nothing permanent because you can misuse your independence at any time".
Syamasundara - "And some come back?"
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes. Otherwise there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do this, you can do that. "All right. Whatever you like."
Devotee - "Then he is so many times falling down, again and again, so will he eventually permanently come back?"
Srila Prabhupada - "When a man is released from the prison house, that does not mean permanently because he can come back again if he wants, however, the general law is NOT to come back, but if he likes, he can come back, otherwise what is the meaning of independence? Just like one becomes free from the prison house, naturally he should not go there again". (Discussions with Syamasundara > Henri Bergson)
Many aspiring devotees, religious leaders, seekers of REAL truth and modern day gurus have absolutely no idea what "free will" and "surrender" really means.
ReplyDeleteSrila Prabhupada - "So, unless there is a possibility of misusing our free will, there is no question of freedom.” (Dialectical Spiritualism, Critique of Descartes)
Sadly some foolishly believe to enter Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana, one must extinguish their "free will" under the heading of ''surrender'' and allow Krishna to completely control your every actions and thoughts.
In other words, you become "little Krishna mindless drone imitators" running around Vrindavana who are always told what to do, when to do, and never allowed to think for yourself.
Such a hellish nightmare version of God's Kingdom is nonsense impersonalism because one is destroying their individual unique ''personality'' and independent sense of self by being that "mindless yes man or women drone".
In true Spiritual reality, the jiva soul is endowed with ''free will'' in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana, where the jiva soul voluntarily contributes in a reciprocal relationship with Krishna as the PERSON they eternally are.
These impersonalist fools do not even care to stop this nonsense self denial and ''childish imitation'' of trying to be little Krishnas, instead of being the unique independent (yet dependent on Krishna) contributing servant they eternally are.
Real love is always a two-way street based on individual thoughtful loving exchanges and reciprocation. Being Krishna's mindless drone or slave in the name of being His servant is NOT the meaning of surrender or having loving selfless exchanges.
Srila Prabhupada - "Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force, no, Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!" (Washington DC July 8, 1976)
Real love or Bhakti is reciprocal, as said above, it is NEVER a one way street where surrender to Krishna takes away one's sense of self, individuality and personal contributions.
This is important to understand because each individual jiva-soul has their own independent personality, sense of self and unique personality and characteristics that THEY only have, that is part and parcel of each individual marginal living entities make up as the independent unique "person" they are eternally.