Tuesday, October 20, 2020

Krsna's promise in the Bhagavad Gita is that the jiva-souls will never fall down from the spiritual world however, do the jiva-souls have a say in this, too? Prabhupada explains below.

Krsna's promise in the Bhagavad Gita As It Is, is that the jiva-souls will never again fall down to the material creation; once they have returned back home, back to Godhead.

So do the jiva-souls have to accept that promise from Krsna as final, or can they leave Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana anytime they choose?

In Bhagavad Gita As It Is, Krsna promises the jiva-souls they will never again fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana and enter the material creation, and yes, Krsna will always keep His promise!

However, Krsna's promise of the jiva-souls never again falling down to the material creation once in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana is from Krsna' point of view. 

So, do the jiva-souls also have a choice to accept Krsna's promise, or can they reject it if they choose?

In other words, does this mean the jiva-souls have no choice and can never choose to leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana, even if they want to leave?

Krsna's promise, confirmed by many past Acharays who agree that once the jiva-souls reach Vaikuntha, never again fall down to the material world, is true for most souls, but not all of them, less than 10% again do fall down again Prabhupada has explained.

Those who always quote Krsna's promise from Bhagavad Gita are right for the majority of jiva-souls, which is about 90% in Vaikuntha, and Goloka Vrindavana because they choose to never fall down again or leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana to enter the material creation.

But not all souls think that way; less than 10% do reject Krsna's promise. 

This is because each jiva-soul has their own free will of independent thinking; this means it is their choice to stay or leave and not just Krsnas.

Otherwise, there is no meaning to free will.

This means Krsna's promise is not the final say or absolute law with all jiva-souls because they all have free will to make their choice, too.

Srila Prabhupada explains Krsna's promise and gives the proper explanation in full, saying a small minority of jiva-souls do choose to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana and puts that figure at less than 10%.

So why do some jiva-souls fall down?

To understand this, one must realize that, ultimately, love is not just a one-way street or a dictatorship of just obeying without voluntary personal contributions.

Real love and service are based on reciprocation and loving exchanges between two, not just one, meaning not just only Krsna.

Therefore, we must not forget that the jiva-souls also have their right of self-expression too, which means they have their individual choices of how they want to uniquely contribute to their relationship with Krsna, expressed from their point of view.

This is because love is always based on reciprocation, on a two-way street between two, and not just one or dominated by only Krsna, no, Krsna never demands that type of impersonal surrender from His devotees, where one just obeys with personal contributions to the relationship with Krsna.

Only impersonalists preach that surrender means giving up free will, individuality, and extinguishing your unique personality, and that everyone should become little Krsna imitaters.

It is a fact Krsna can do anything He wants to do however, if Krsna forced His will and complete dominance on the individual jiva-souls, then how can the jiva-souls express themselves as independent person's who offer their own contributions to Krsna?

With such freedom, the jiva-souls are no better than dead stone Prabhupada tells us. 

Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. Do you want to be stone? Then you must have free will! But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone either. That is not life." (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)

Such one-way control by this kind of God will only destroy the jiva-soul's independent ability of voluntary self-expression and unique individuality.

Denying the jiva-souls, their natural eternal constitutional right of self-expression and free will (freedom) is impersonalism.

If Krsna did force His will and forced the jiva-souls to love Him, then how can that be real genuine love as Prabhupada explains?

Srila Prabhupada - "Love is a reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force, no, Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!" (Washington DC July 8, 1976)

By promising that Krsna will never let the jiva-souls fall down, by keeping them in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana, can be seen as interfering with the free will, independence and individuality of the jiva-soul.

This is because the jiva-souls are entitled to having their own choices of how to serve Krsna too, or even reject Krsna if they choose, meaning they must be allowed to leave anytime they like, otherwise what is the point of free will?

The fact is Krsna will never make that decision for the jiva-souls; they must voluntarily choose for themselves; otherwise, free will is violated. 

There can be no question of love if the jiva-souls have no right to choose for themselves.

Devotee - "Srila Prabhupada, why did Krsna give us free will if He knew we would miss use it?"

Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, you are a stone. Do you want to be stone? Then you must have free will!" (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)

Free will is something never acquired, nor ever given up or surrendered in the spiritual world as ignorant fools believe, free will is eternally part and parcel of the jiva-souls (marginal living entities) natural constitution and therefore always exists without beginning or end on the spiritual planets.

However, free will, in its full potential, is only fully experienced in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavan, which is the jiva-souls original perpetual home from where they originated from.

Ultimately in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana, it is also the jiva's choice of how to serve and not just Krsna's because He  wants loving servants who choose to be with Him through their own free will and personal offerings, to serve and love Him voluntarily.

Not forced to serve Him by saying once you are in Goloka Vrindavana, never again will you fall down.

No, that is not Krsna's call, it is not His choice alone, it is also the jiva-soul's choice to remain there as a servant of the servant as weĺl, or even leave if they choose to.

The relationship between servant and Master is never one-way; it is a perpetual relationship based on reciprocation and loving exchanges between two.

The promise by Krsna that the jiva-souls will never again fall down into the material world, is from His point of view as explained above however, the jiva-souls can reject His offer if they choose, otherwise there is no meaning to having free will.

Ultimately, it is not only Krsna's will and complete control that determines loving exchanges; no, it is a joint participation between the jiva-souls and Krsna. 

The spiritual worlds are not dictatorships where one is a yes man or women who are denied and personal contributions or offerings.

Over 90% of jiva-souls do choose to accept Krsna's promise and never again leave the spiritual worlds, but even that can change because free will is eternal.

The fact is, there are no guarantees that the jiva-souls will never fall down to the material creation.

As said above, only less than 10% do choose to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana, and that is their right.

Srila Prabhupada - "Independence means you can do this, you can do that, all right, whatever you like; otherwise, there is no meaning of independence."(Discussions with Syamasundara and Henri Bergson)

Sadly, many can not understand these words from Srila Prabhupada  and still foolishly claim that once they reach the spiritual world, they never again fall down because Krsna will not allow them to fall down.

If true, then that means Krsna takes away the jiva-soul's free will in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana, which is simply not true.

The reason why is because all each jiva-soul is an independent individual person with 78.125% of Krsna's qualities and have their own personality separate from Krsna's Personality. This means having their own unique independent identity.

Devotee – "In Srimad Bhagavatam, it says that Krsna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krsna did not want us to come, why are we here?” Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?”

Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C).

The jiva-souls in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana are forever expanding their expression of individuality with personal offerings based on free will and voluntary selfless reciprocation with Krsna, it is never a one-sided relationship with the Krsna.

Real love, bhakti or devotional service is reciprocal, as said above, it is never a one-way street where surrender to Krsna takes away one's sense of self, individuality, and personal contributions.

This is important to understand because each individual jiva-soul has their own independent personality, sense of self and unique personality and characteristics that they only have, that is part and parcel of each individual marginal living entities make up as the independent unique person they are eternally.

Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are Son of God, you have got independence, full independence; therefore, you have acquired the quality of your father. So God does not interfere with your independence." (Conversation Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974)

Acyutananda – “In the Bhagavat Gita it says, 'Once the jiva-soul enters to the spiritual world, he never again returns to the material creation', but you say he can return?”

Srila Prabhupada – “If he likes, he can return."

Guru-kripa – “How is it that one can become envious of Krsna?”

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence; you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God. God has got full independence, but you have got independence too, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, so if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown."(Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976)

Free will for the jiva-souls is eternal in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavan and without this freedom of choosing to either serve Krsna, or forget Krsna, then there is no question of have freedom (free will) in the spiritual worlds.

Without free will, the jiva-souls would have no individuality, no sense of self, no independent personality, and no ability to love. The jiva-souls would simply be no better than dead stone Prabhupada has said above.

Srila Prabhupada - “So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, or one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot fall down, that is not independence, that is force. Therefore, Krsna says, yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.” (Los Angeles, June 23, 1975)

For loving devotion to truly exist with the marginal living entity and Krsna, the jiva-souls must have the right to even choose to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana at anytime if they want, therefore returning home back to Godhead is not necessarily permanent Prabhupada explains here-

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence; therefore, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God, you have independence, proportionately; therefore, if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted, with little independence. We can misuse that." (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976)

Syamasundara - "But can we predict returning back home back to Godhead will be permanent? Can we predict that? Just like many prisoners leave the prison 

some end up back there?''

Srila Prabhupada - "No, there is no such thing as permanent because we have got little independence. There is nothing permanent because you can misuse your independence at any time."

Syamasundara - "And some come back?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, otherwise there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do this; you can do that. All right. Whatever you like."

Devotee - "Then he is so many times falling down, again and again, so will he eventually permanently come back?"

Srila Prabhupada - "He has got independence; therefore, there is always the possibility he can misuse his independence. he can fall again if he wants; that choice is always there. That's why when a man is released from the prison house, that does not mean it is permanent because he can again come back however, the general law is not to come back, but if he likes, he can come back, otherwise what is the meaning of having independence and free will? Just like one becomes free from the prison house, naturally, he should not go there again." (Discussions with Syamasundara > Henri Bergson).^^^..















2 comments:

  1. Many aspiring devotees, religious leaders, seekers of REAL truth and modern day gurus have absolutely no idea what "free will" and "surrender" really means.

    Srila Prabhupada - "So, unless there is a possibility of misusing our free will, there is no question of freedom.” (Dialectical Spiritualism, Critique of Descartes)

    Sadly some foolishly believe to enter Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana, one must extinguish their "free will" under the heading of ''surrender'' and allow Krishna to completely control your every actions and thoughts.

    In other words, you become "little Krishna mindless drone imitators" running around Vrindavana who are always told what to do, when to do, and never allowed to think for yourself.

    Such a hellish nightmare version of God's Kingdom is nonsense impersonalism because one is destroying their individual unique ''personality'' and independent sense of self by being that "mindless yes man or women drone".

    In true Spiritual reality, the jiva soul is endowed with ''free will'' in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana, where the jiva soul voluntarily contributes in a reciprocal relationship with Krishna as the PERSON they eternally are.

    These impersonalist fools do not even care to stop this nonsense self denial and ''childish imitation'' of trying to be little Krishnas, instead of being the unique independent (yet dependent on Krishna) contributing servant they eternally are.

    Real love is always a two-way street based on individual thoughtful loving exchanges and reciprocation. Being Krishna's mindless drone or slave in the name of being His servant is NOT the meaning of surrender or having loving selfless exchanges.

    Srila Prabhupada - "Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force, no, Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!" (Washington DC July 8, 1976)

    Real love or Bhakti is reciprocal, as said above, it is NEVER a one way street where surrender to Krishna takes away one's sense of self, individuality and personal contributions.

    This is important to understand because each individual jiva-soul has their own independent personality, sense of self and unique personality and characteristics that THEY only have, that is part and parcel of each individual marginal living entities make up as the independent unique "person" they are eternally.

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  2. Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and cause of ALL causes, He allows the jiva souls to have their freedom so that they are able to choose for themselves, in cooperation with Krishna, how to love and serve Him.

    If Krishna never sanctioned the jiva's free will, then they would be no better than dead stone Prabhupada has explained.

    If Krishna does not allow the jiva souls to have their free will, then the jiva souls can NEVER have a meaningful relationship of loving exchanges, personal contributions and reciprocation with Krishna as the individual "living person" they are eternally.

    They would simply be no better than mindless programmed impersonal dead machines or drones.

    The Spiritual Worlds, and "life itself", can NEVER exist unless the jiva souls are experiencing loving exchanges and reciprocation with Krishna, this can only happen when there is free will.

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