And there is the realization that all jiva-souls are independent unique PERSONS who voluntarily serve Krsna.
This is how we know mayavadi impersonalism is a lie.
They claim the universe is an ''all-one" consciousness, meaning an all pervading life force that plays out different roles as an individual only when contained in individual bodily vessel container.
Although Krsna and His unlimited Visnu-tattva expansions ARE technically "all one," this is NOT the case with the individual jiva-souls.
All the individual jiva-souls are NOT one consciousness, each have their own "unique" independent character, bodily form and personality separate from Krsna's Personality eternally.
And no individual jiva-soul is the same as another individual jiva-soul.
Therefore, the marginal living entities (jiva-souls) never lose their independent identity and unique personality as an individual "PERSON"
Even a blade of grass, leaf, tree, clouds, rain drops, grains of sand and chair are "individual Persons" in Goloka-Vrindavan and Vaikuntha, all voluntarily serving Krsna.
Everything in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana is alive as both separated individual personalities and direct expansions of Krsna!
Of course in the material worlds the jiva-souls become greatly covered by the many different material bodily vessels that make up the 8 million 400 thousand species of material life.
Only in the very rare 400 thousand human species does a very small minute amount of free will exist, while in the other 8 million species there is no free will at all, only the instinct of eating, sleeping, mating and defending.
This is why no karma is created in the lower species of life, only in the human species is karma created.
Also no karma is created in both the heavenly and hellish planets, both places is where one experiences the result of the karma, good and bad, created while in the human form of life on this Earth planet (the Bhurloka planetary system)
It is very important to understand the jiva-souls have their independence and free will in their full potential in both Goloka Vrindavana and Vaikuntha.
And this is what "marginal" means, that makes the jiva-souls unique individual "persons" they are eternally.
To say you can never leave Goloka once there is true for most, but not all, this is because of free will, the jiva-souls can ALWAYS choose to miss use their free will at anytime Prabhupada has told us.
Without having that choice, we are no better than dead stone that can never experience love, or receive love.
And yes, many devotees find this very difficult to understand and accept.
Many naive devotees get around things they cannot understand by calling them inconceivable which is a cop-out rather than attempting to understand a difficult situation with all available evidence.
Many devotees also believe in something just because Prabhupada does. They claim it must be true if Prabhupada believes it.
However, in rare cases it's not true.
For example he has said the Apollo missions to the Moon were all faked.
Today in 2023 we know his opinion on the Apollo maned Moon missions between 1969 and 1972 was incorrect, or more clearly, he was wrong.
Because of the deep love devotees have for Prabhupada, it hurts them to hear this, for them Prabhupada knows everything because of their love for him.
HERE HERE HERE
understood and has clearly explained.
Like the fact that each jiva-soul is able to ALWAYS make their own "choices" and "decisions" in both Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana.
Technically such freedom (free will) to choose allows the jiva-soul to increase their “unique” individual expression of love for Krsna.
Such freedom, free will and ability to choose is ALWAYS with the marginal living entity (jiva-soul) in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana.
Therefore to take that free will and sense of individual self away from the marginal living entity in Goloka-Vrindavan and Vaikuntha, the jiva-tattva soul would also lose their individual ability to “give and accept love”.
This is because without "free will" we lose our sense of independence as a person who has a unique separate identity from all of other individual jiva-tattva souls, Visnu tattvas, and Krsna Himself.
It is a fact Krsna NEVER forces His will on the marginal living entities (jiva-souls)
These are very important points to understand.
The jiva-tattva souls are independent free thinking souls eternally in Goloka-Vrindavan and Vaikuntha, yet simultaneously part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krsna the cause of all causes meant to please the Lord as the unique “PERSONS ” they are eternally.
Therefore, no one can force the jiva-soul to stay in Vaikuntha, that choice MUST be eternally theirs (the jiva-soul) eternally.
Only Visnu-tattvas and Visnu-sakti-tattvas NEVER fall down from Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana because they ARE direct expansions of Krsna.
As already explained, they are playing unlimited different roles in Krsna's pastimes and have 93.75% of Krsna’s qualities, which is 60 of Krsna's 64 qualities, yet are full expansions of Krsna and none different from Him.
Visnu-sakti-tattvas are not just only Radharani but are also gopis, gopas, parents, etc and many, many other different direct personalities that are all Krsna playing another role in His pastimes.
Krsna’s brother Balarama is Visnu-tattva, Srimati Radharani is Visnu-sakti-tattva expansion of Krsna and many others are too, playing different parts in Krsna Lila (pastimes).
Just like in Lord Caitanya’s pastimes where many are Visnu-tattvas and Visnu-sakti-tattvas playing many of His devotees.
It is ONLY these residents of Vrindavana who NEVER fall down into forgetfulness while the jiva-soul residents can choose for themselves.
In Goloka Vrindavana all jiva-souls are eternally liberated until they choose not to be.
Only then is a jiva-soul called eternally conditioned.
All jiva souls where originally nitya siddha, it is only when they choose to give up serving Krsna do they then become nitya baddha.
There are NOT two different jiva-tattva souls, one (nitya baddha) existing in the material world and impersonal Brahmajyoti, and the other (nitya siddha) existing and serving eternally in Goloka-Vrindavan and Vaikuntha.
No, this idea is nonsense because ALL nitya-baddhas are originally nitya-siddha as Prabhupada has explained to us.
Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone (all marginal living entities) are nitya-siddha which means eternally liberated” (Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977)
Srila Prabhupada - ''The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha, because God is eternal and His part and parcels, the living entities, they are also eternal. So that is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha, sädhana-siddha, krpa-siddha-there are different grades. They are all described in The Nectar of Devotion. So one can become sadhana-siddha. (Caitanya-caritamrta, July 13, 1976)
Srila Prabhupada - ''By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can also become siddha. He can become AGAIN nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas AGAIN nitya-siddha, to bring them. It is a difficult task'' - (New York lecture on Caitanya-caritamrta, July 13, 1976)
And the fact is, more than 90% of jiva-tattva souls also “choose” to stay in Vaikuntha and NEVER fall down, which means entering the material creation seeking selfish desires.
To be in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana does NOT always guarantee the jiva-soul will stay there forever and never enter the material world again once returning there.
Although as already explained 90% never choose to forget Krsna because that is their desire and expression of free will, sadly some jiva-souls DO choose to leave or fall from Vaikuntha however, Prabhupada explains it is only a very small minority who foolishly make that choice, less than 10%.
Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?”
Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”. (Los Angeles, June 23, 1975)
Let's clear one thing up, falling into the material world has absolutely nothing to do with maya or the material energy because maya does not and can not exist in Vaikuntha.
The jiva-souls do not even know Maya or the material energy exists, however, they do have "free will and the ability to choose" and are aware that this quality is “eternally” part and parcel of the jiva-tattva’s makeup and exists in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.
We do not lose our independence and sense of individual identity once we enter Vaikuntha, we are eternally independent living entities even in Vaikuntha.
However, we always depend of Krsna in Vaikuntha, or His many Visnu-tattva expansions like Maha Visnu and Garbhodakashayi Visnu who provide all facilities in the material creation.
We can never be truly independent because everything, all that is, belongs to Krsna.
In other words we are always independent living entities but always depend on Krsna for our existence, just like the Sun-rays cannot exist without the Sun.
The fact is because we CAN "choose to be with Krsna or reject Him", then there can be increasing endeavors of loving exchange and reciprocation due to “choice”.
This is one of the reasons why the material universe was created - to give "reality" to that choice of rejecting and forgetting Krsna, just so the living entity can go to another place outside Vaikuntha and try to enjoy life without being Krsna conscious.
The marginal living entity or jiva-tattva souls MUST have that free will to choose to be with Krsna, or not be with Krsna, if they want, instead of just being in Vaikuntha without having no choice or free will at all as some believe.
Such mentality that denies "free will" is actually impersonalism.
The point made here is the position of the jiva-soul in Vaikuntha must be voluntary. Who you love and who you choose to serve MUST be voluntary.
Many cannot understand these facts about the importance of free will, individuality, identity and the sense of self worth of being a unique person who can give selfless ever increasing love or service in their own way to Krsna.
These qualities are based on the importance of the individual's ability to have "choices" within their experiences as a individual person.
Once again to be truly free there must be the choice of Vaikuntha or its so called opposite where Krsna can be forgotten, the "material creation"
Without the jiva-tattva souls being able to choose Krsna or not, there can NEVER be love, Prabhupada has said to force love is called rape.
Srila Prabhupada - ''So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krsna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love?
So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening.
Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.)
By misusing one's free will causes the jiva-soul to live separately from Krsna by entering the material creation.
And this choice has nothing to do with maya or material energy as explained above.
As Prabhupada has explained, it is one's free will that allows the jiva-souls to reject Krsna.
This is because each jiva-soul is an independent individual persons, who can make their own choices, and includes rejecting Krsna if they want that instantly places them in the material creation.
After making that choice, the rebellious jiva-soul is given material bodies by Maha Visnu, both subtle and gross material vessels that covers the eternal anti-material spiritual bodily form.
In the material world the jiva-souls are confined to a gross material bodily vessel that is always in a state of decay and decline, and in need of constant maintenance.
Eventually the jiva-soul, trapped within a decaying material body, is forced to take another gross material body when their present one decomposes and wears out.
Everything in the material creation perishes due to decay caused by the temporary nature of the material creation.
Also once in the material creation, the jiva-soul is on their own path directed by their own pious and impious actions.
This is because they are responsible for their actions good and bad and are punishment or rewarded according.
Therefore karma begins as soon as the jiva-soul leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana.
No jiva-souls originate from the dormant Brahmajyoti or Brahman effulgence, or the Body of Maha-Visnu because they ALL come (originate) from Vaikuntha as Prabhupada explains.
Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - ''These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. (Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970)
Although many jiva-souls fall to impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti AFTER being in the material creation.
However, NEVER did the jiva-souls originate from that impersonal Brahmajyoti Prabhupada explains-
Srila Prabhupada - ''The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman.
Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition.
When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness.
So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he is fallen down’’. (Letter to: Revatinandana, Los Angeles 13 June, 1970)
Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.”(Original Hare Krsna "Happening record album" New York December 1966)
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?’ I immediately fall down.” (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.)
Srila Prabhupada - 'This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the jiva-soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”. (SB 4.29.83 Purport)
A devotee once ask Srila Bhaktisiddhanta why was the jiva-soul granted free will when they could also misuse it?
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta answered -
“You are fighting for freedom. Don’t you know the value of having free will? Devoid of freedom the soul is only matter".
Furthermore freedom (free will) offers one the alternative to do either right or wrong Gandhi once told the British authorities.
”We want our freedom too.”
The British authorities replied -
“You are not fit to have self-government or your freedom. When you are fit, we shall give it to you.”
Gandhi replied,
“We want the freedom to do wrong too.”
So, freedom does not guarantee only acting in the right way; and that choice must be there to do wrong too.
Freedom means being able to choose "right or wrong".
The possibility of also rejecting Krsna must ALWAYS be there even in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana because of free will.
And this is always the case in the Spiritual Planets too.
Our first choice AFTER rejecting Krsna in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana, is to dominate and imitate Krsna, therefore it is that choice that causes the jiva soul to enter the material world of domination.
And such choices have nothing to do with the influence of Maya or the material energy that does not exist in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana.
As a result of this "choice", everything else in the material creation has developed.
So Srila Prabhupada has explained that the "original position" of the jiva soul is with Krsna in a servitor relationship of voluntary loving exchanges.
As explained above, Maya can NEVER be blamed for the fall down of the jiva-soul from Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana in any way because Maya, in her role as the personification of material energy, does NOT exist in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana, nothing material can exist there.
But "free will" does eternally exist there and has ALWAYS existed in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana!
Therefore the jiva-souls are always responsible for their choices and actions in both the Spiritual Planets and the material creation.
Srila Prabhupada on the other hand chose to come to the material creation to serve Krsna's plan and attract the fallen jiva-souls back home back to Godhead.
Many other devotees also choose to come here to be in Krsna's pastimes as preachers or even play the role of a demon who fights Krsna.
There are three ways the jiva-souls can come here to the material creation.
1 - As a devotee who preaches God Consciousness.
2 - As a devotee who plays the part as a great demon like Jai and Vijayi the gatekeepers of Vaikuntha.
3 - And those who "choose" to just forget and give up Krsna's association and do their own thing in the material creation.
Also one can never have "material desires" in Vaikuntha because Maya does NOT exist there.
In the Spiritual Planets only being always aware of the eternal presence of Krsna exists there perpetually, and as soon as the jiva soul rejects that (because they always have a choice) they are immediately transferred to the material creation.
Maya cannot be blamed for tempting us and causing our fall down from Vaikuntha in any way because She, in her role as the personification of material energy, does NOT exist in Vaikuntha as explaineda above.
Nothing material (Maya) can exist in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana.
However, free will, the independence of the jiva-soul, and their individuality and unique personality, does and always has existed in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.
The jiva-souls therefore leave Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana because of free will that allows them to choose to either accept or reject Krsna.
As an individual ''person'' with independent thoughts and unique personality, the jiva-souls are ALWAYS able to make their own choices.
What does the majority of devotees think being a "PERSON" really means after you surrender to Krsna?
1 - Do they think it is becoming some "yes man or women" by extinguishing their free will and sense of independent self? Or does serving in Krsna's Kingdom means one becomes a mindless none thinking denier of the "individual self", including denying their unique qualities that makes them a contributing individual?
2 - Do they think surrender to Krsna means giving up their individuality?
Sadly, so many have no idea what real "personalism" or "surrender" really means.
The idea of "don't think, just do what your told" is an impersonal dictatorial nonsense saying
This is because it denies the jiva soul to explore their own individuality and use their own God given abilities and talents to contribute and offer something unique to their own personality and character, that no other jiva-soul has.
So no, "you" DO NOT give up your independence or individuality, including one's sense of self worth and self esteem, in order to be fully surrendered and "dependent" on Krsna.
This nonsense idea of giving your individuality and free will is the meaning of surrendering is impersonalism.
And those who foolishly pray to be just an atom in Krsna's lotus feet are also impersonalists because is attempting to extinguish their spiritual bodily svarupa identity be merging into Krsna.
To a Vaisnava this act of trying to cease all activity and become one with God is spiritual suicide.
In fact in Goloka Vrindavana your individual independence and dependence on Krsna go together side by side ETERNALLY increasing one's loving exchanges with Krsna.
And simultaneously at the same time, is always forever expanding in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.
It takes spiritual intelligence to understand what real surrender is, and that includes understanding the jiva-souls are eternally an independent individual person with their own sense of "individual self" that is separate from all other individual jiva-souls and even Krsna.
Although Krsna always accompanies all jiva-tattva souls as a friend and witness to the jiva-souls individual choices and actions because the jiva-souls are eternally parts and parcels of the Krsna the Supreme Personality of Godhead and cause of ALL causes.
The jiva-tattva is not part of an all one programmed none thinking impersonal collective within God's Kingdom, no, that is a description of what an impersonal hell is like.
Impersonalism also means believing that in Vaikuntha we must give up our free will, independence and individuality, and become part of an "all one collective consciousness" as part of our so called surrender.
Such an impersonal existence is to be devoid of individual thought that does not allow personal contributions that makes ''you'', who you really are, as a unique PERSON as Krsna's eternal servant who can contribute the best of ''their'' individual abilities.
On the other hand personalism means the individual jiva-soul must be able to grow and flourish as an independent living being giving their own personal contributions of devotional service to Krsna.
To deny the jiva-soul's individuality and having their own independent sense of identity is the hell to a "real" Krsna devotees.
Without free will we are no better than dead stone Prabhupada has taught us.
Many have an impersonalist idea about what Vaikuntha is like and do not even know it. Only when the living entity desires not to be with Krsna do they enter the material world and realize Maya's existences.
Paramahamsa - “But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return.
Srila Prabhupada - “There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is”.
Paramahamsa - “If we want”.
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”.
Paramahamsa - “So we can come to the spiritual world and return?”
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”.
Paramahamsa - “Fall down?”
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go.” Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness. So, they want to enjoy this material world.
Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this."
Just like some of our students, Krsna conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped.
Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, "Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here." He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that.
Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare, nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare.
The police is there. Just like the police car was there. We have nothing to do with it. But if you do anything criminal, immediately you will be arrested, under police custody.
The maya may be there, but maya captures him who is not a devotee of Krsna. That’s all. Therefore, mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te: "Anyone who surrenders unto Me, maya does not interfere anymore."
Paramahamsa - ''So our desire to enjoy, we achieve these bodies; and our desire to achieve Krsna brings us to our natural position''.
Srila Prabhupada - ''Yes. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)
Therefore the jiva-souls are responsible for their choices and actions. And in the material creation, free will "almost" does not exist because one is binded by their own reactions to their pious and impious deeds (karma)
Srila Prabhupada – ''Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls (jiva-souls) fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down?
The jiva-souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at anytime, so there is always a chance of falling down by misuse of one’s independence''. (Letter to Jagadisa Prabhu, 4/25/1970.)
Srila Prabhupada – Regarding your several questions: Where are the jiva-souls coming from that are taking microbe bodies? It is not a matter of any particular body.
These jiva-souls and all jiva-souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities.
There are no NEW souls. New and old are due to this material body, but the jiva-soul is NEVER born and NEVER dies, so if there is no birth, so how there can be new jiva-soul?''. (Letter to Jagadisa 7/9/1970)
Srila Prabhupada - “Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities.
Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. (Letter to Jagadisa 02/27/1970)
Srila Prabhupada - “The relationship with Krsna is never lost, it is simply forgotten by the influence of maya, so it maybe regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position.
The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new'' (Letter to Jagadisa 02/27/1970)
Srila Prabhupada - “The answer to your question about the marginal energy is that the jiva-soul is always called marginal energy whether he is in the spiritual world or in the material world.
There are instances where marginal energy jiva-souls have fallen from the spiritual world, just like Jaya and Vijaya. So the potency to fall under the influence of the lower energy is always there. And thus the individual jiva-soul is called as Krsna’s marginal energy.” - (Letter to Rayarama, December 2, 1968)
Srila Prabhupada - “Every living being has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally, That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi-perfection of one’s constitutional position. (Bhagavad-Gita as it is, Introduction.)
Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to Krsna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". (Germany, June 22, 1974)
Srila Prabhupada – “In the Padma Purana, wherein it is said that there are two kinds of spiritual entities; one is called the jiva (jiva-tattva), and the other is called the Supreme Lord (Visnu-tattva)”. (87th Chapter of Krsna Book, Prayers by the Personified Vedas.)
Full conversation in the heading quotes reveals what Prabhupada means when he says less than 10% fall down Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.
Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?
Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are… Majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”.
Dr. John Mize – “So we’re among the 10%.
Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. Or less than that. In the material, whole material world all the living entities they are… Just like in the prison house, there is some population, but they are not majority. The majority of the population, they are outside the prison house. Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the spiritual world. Only a few fall down”.
Dr. John Mize – “Does Krsna know ahead of time that a soul is going to be foolish and fall?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Krsna? Yes, Krsna may know because He is omniscient”.
Dr. John Mize – “Are more souls falling all the time?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Not all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence… Everyone is not liking to misuse the independence. The same example:
Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal.
So their shelter must be also constructed. It is very easy to understand. Not that cent percent population will be criminal, but government knows that some of them will be.
Otherwise why they construct prison house also?
One may say, “Where is the criminal? You are constructing…” Government knows, there will be criminal. So if the ordinary government can know, why God cannot know? Because there is tendency”.
Dr. John Mize – “The origin of that tendency (to fall from Goloka) is…?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Yes”.
Dr. John Mize – “From where does that tendency come?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krsna says,yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.” (Bhagavad Gita as it is. lecture, Mayapur, June 20, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - "In the broader sense everyone comes from Krsna Loka. When one forgets Krsna he is conditioned, when one remembers Krsna he is liberated". (Letter to Mukunda, June 10, 1969)
Srila Prabhupada - "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately Maya covers us. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going". (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami June 1972 Australia)
Acyutananda - ''So what made the soul take birth in the first place?''
Srila Prabhupada - ''In the first place?''
Acyutananda - ''What is the first birth? What is the cause of the first birth''.
Srila Prabhupada - ''Yes. That is stated in the Prema-vivarta:
krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare
nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare
We are eternal servant of Krsna. As soon as we want to become master, that is the beginning of our first birth in the material world. We have got independence. Krsna says, mamaivamso jiva bhutah—we are part and parcel of Krsna—so Krsna has got full independence, but we are minute; therefore we have got minute independence. Our business is to serve Krsna, but as soon as we give up this idea, we want to become master. That is the beginning of our material birth''. (Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.2--Hyderabad, April 11, 1975)
Acyutananda - ''But in the Bhagavad Gita, it says, "Once coming there, he never returns."
Srila Prabhupada - ''But if he likes, he can return''.
Acyutananda - ''He can return?''
Srila Prabhupada - ''That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown''. (Morning Walk--February 19, 1976, Mayapur)
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura - ''When the marginal living entity has contact with matter, the imprisoned jiva-soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha, material rasas (tastes and desires) are perverted reflections of the jiva-souls original spiritual rasas. (Prema-pradipa, p. 83)
Devotee - "Srila Prabhupada, why did Krsna give us free will if He knew we could fall down into the material world?"
Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will. But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone either. That is not life". (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)
Loving relationships and expressions of love are always a "two way street" based on reciprocation and loving exchanges, it is NEVER a slave domineering master relationship that only destroys one's free will and independence to express yourself as a unique individual.
Srila Prabhupada - ''Love means you take and you give also. Suppose if you love somebody and you simply take from him, but you don't give. Oh, do you think it is very good? No. It is not good. That is NOT love. That is exploitation. If I go on simply taking from you, and if I don't offer you anything, that is simply exploitation. (Lecture on Bhagavad Gita Chapter 9 text 2-5, New York, November 23, 1966)
Srila Prabhupada - ''We have got the propensity to love. Love means somebody else. Love cannot be one or love cannot be executed only by one, there must be another one. I love somebody; somebody loves me, there must be lover, there must be beloved, and the transaction, then love''. (Lecture on Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 1 Chapter 2 text 6, Delhi, November 12, 1973)
Love means two.
Srila Prabhupada - ''The impersonalist philosophy is oneness but how there can be love with just one? Is it possible? Have you got any such experience? Love means one? No. Love means two. There must be two, the lover and the beloved. Kṛṣṇa is already lover. He's so lover of you that He's trying to get you back. That is Kṛṣṇa's attempt. "Please, My dear boy, or My dear friend, My dear servant..." (Lecture on Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 2 Chapter 1 text 3 -- Paris, June 12, 1974)
The jiva-soul in both Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana, NEVER lose their free will, which means their own individual ability of self expression when choosing to offer their own personal contributions that is unique to each of the individual jiva-souls.
Each jiva-soul in their full natural ''svarupa'' potential in the Spiritual Worlds of Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana, has this eternal marginal quality of free will, which is part and parcel of there perpetual constitutional makeup.
In this way, each of jiva-soul has their own individual sense of self, character, personality, likes and dislikes by being one of kind in the Spiritual Sky unlike any other jiva-soul.
No two jiva-souls are the same, each has their own unique individuality, personality and character.
This eternally existing makeup of each jiva-soul, is without any beginning or ending point, and is part and parcel of every marginal living entities (jiva-tattva souls).
This allows the jiva-soul to "personally" always be aware of their own individuality and independent nature of voluntary contributions while serving Krsna in THEIR very best way, that is different from all other living entities in the Spiritual Sky.`
This is a very important point to understand as we progress and mature in our Krsna Consciousness.
The relationship between Krsna and the jiva-tattva (soul) is NEVER one-sided, never forced, never impersonal, it is ALWAYS reciprocal, nurturing, personal and voluntary, in a mood of good exchanges and feelings, ONLY then can there be REAL love.
Srila Prabhupada - "So, unless there is a possibility of misusing our free will, there is no question of freedom.” (Dialectical Spiritualism, Critique of Descartes)
So the conclusion is Srimad Bhagavatam explains the fall down of the jiva-soul from Vaikuntha found in the 4th Canto Chapter 28 text 53 of Srimad Bhagavatam where the Supreme Lord is disguised as a brahmana;
''The brāhmaṇa continued: My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can't you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world''.*
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