When fall down from the spiritual worlds takes place, it means falling down from the "non-fallen" place which are the Vaikuntha planets and Goloka Vrindavana.
The jiva-souls can also fall further to impersonal brahman or brahmajyoti after becoming fed up and frustrated with the material existence's repeated cycle of birth and death.
The fallen jiva-souls therefore seek out "inactivity" or the dormant conditional state in the impersonal brahmajyoti.
They do this in their attempt to escape the suffering of repeated birth and death and continuous attemps to enjoy the temporary decaying material creation they mistakenly believe is their home.
We have to once and for all realize the jiva-souls NEVER originated from the impersonal brahmajyoti or tatastha-sakti as some foolishly believe.
The correct understanding is tatastha-sakti is already a fallen conditional state, so the jiva-souls certainly NEVER originated from an already fallen condition Srila Prabhupada explains.
Srila Prabhupada - "So this material world is the taṭastha or the conditioned characteristics, and the spiritual world is the permanent characteristics. So our effort is to get out of this taṭastha (conditioned characteristics) and enter the permanent characteristics. That is called spiritual elevation." (Lecture CC Madhya-lila 20.354-358, New York City, Dec 28, 1966)
Srila Prabhupada - "Because the individual jiva-soul is apt to fall down sometimes under the clutches of māyā, it is called taṭastha śakti." (Lecture BG, Ch 7 Text 4-5, Bombay, March 30, 1971)
There is no such place as tatastha-sakti where jiva-souls are literally generated from or originate from because they have always been and where never created.
The marginal plane (the category the individual jiva-souls) has no point of origin at all as Bhagavad Gita As It Is teaches.
The marginal living entities (jiva-souls) are known by many names that describe their position or condition, tatastha-sakti is one of those names describing the "fallen" conditional state of the jiva-souls in the material world.
There are also other names describing the jiva-souls outside of the spiritual world in a particular "conditioned state" in the material creation or the impersonal brahmajyoti.
But not in Goloka-Vrindavana and the Vaikuntha planets.
The jiva-souls are NOT in a "conditioned state" there in the spiritual world, so they are NOT known as tatastha-sakti in either the Vaikuntha planets or Krsna's central Abode of Goloka-Vrindavana.
As said above, tatastha-sakti is NOT a place, it is a description of the jiva-souls in their fallen conditioned state outside the spiritual world.
Some foolishly claim the jiva-souls are generated from tatastha-saki which technically is incorrect, this is because tatastha-sakti is a name describing "an already fallen conditional state of the marginal living entity (jiva-souls), so how can they be generated or originate from from an "already fallen condition?"
The correct understanding is the "jiva-souls" are in the category known as the "marginal potency," they are eternal individuals in the spiritual world, part and parcel of Krsna's eternal collective of independent persons called the "marginal living entities."
How can the jiva-souls originate from tatastha-sakti when they have no origin?
Krsna and the jiva-souls are the same age, which means both were NEVER created as confirmed in Bhagavad Gita As It Is.
The jiva-souls are eternal spiritual living PERSONS and can never be destroyed, terminated or extinguished, the jiva-souls are indestructible.
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - “Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.” (BG, Ch 2 text 12, 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - “As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change." (BG, Ch 2 text 13, 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - “O son of Kuntī, the nonpermanent appearance of happiness and distress, and their disappearance in due course, are like the appearance and disappearance of winter and summer seasons. They arise from sense perception, O scion of Bharata, and one must learn to tolerate them without being disturbed." (BG, Ch 2 text 14, 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - “Those who are seers of the truth have concluded that of the nonexistent [the material body] there is no endurance and of the eternal [the soul] there is no change. This they have concluded by studying the nature of both." (BG, Ch 2 text 16, 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - “That which pervades the entire body you should know to be indestructible. No one is able to destroy that imperishable soul." (BG, Ch 2 text 17, 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - “Neither he who thinks the living entity the slayer nor he who thinks it slain is in knowledge, for the self slays not nor is slain." (BG, Ch 2 text 19, 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." (BG, Ch 2 text 20 “corrected” 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "O Pārtha, how can a person who knows that the soul is indestructible, eternal, unborn and immutable kill anyone or cause anyone to kill?" (BG, Ch 2 text 21, 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, the soul similarly accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones." (BG, Ch 2 text 22, 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "The soul can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind." (BG, Ch 2 text 23, 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same." (BG, Ch 2 text 24, 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "It is said that the soul is invisible, inconceivable and immutable. Knowing this, you should not grieve for the body." (BG, Ch 2 text 25, 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "One who has taken his birth is sure to die, and after death one is sure to take birth again. Therefore, in the unavoidable discharge of your duty, you should not lament." (BG, Ch 2 text 27, 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "Some look on the soul as amazing, some describe him as amazing, and some hear of him as amazing, while others, even after hearing about him, cannot understand him at all." (BG, Ch 2 text 29, 1983 edition)
Bhagavad Gita As It Is - "O descendant of Bharata, he who dwells in the material body can never be slain. Therefore, you need not grieve for any living being." (BG, Ch 2 text 30, 1983 edition)
Srila Prabhupada – "There are no new souls, new and old are due to this material body, but the jiva-soul is never born and never dies, so if there is no birth, how can there be new souls?" (Letter to Jagadisa dasa, 7/9/1970)
This means the jiva-souls are NOT generated from some place in the cosmos, such an idea is imagination because the marginal living entities (jiva-souls) never originated from anywhere, they are eternal without beginning or end.
In the material world nothing lasts forever, everything is in a constant state of decomposition except for the jiva-souls who are the spiritual passengers within the material bodily vessels.
So there is also no such place known as tatastha-sakti, as said above, it is a word describing the already fallen "conditioned state" of the jiva-souls.
Therefore, the individual jiva-souls are not generated from anywhere because they have always existed as part and parcel of the marginal category of Krsna's energies.
The english word "generated" can be misleading in this regards because many think it means a beginning point or its origin when the jiva-souls have no origin.
In Srimad Bhagavatam the use of this word "generated" by Prabhupada really means the jiva-souls are part and parcel of a category called the "marginal energy, plane or potency, who are a collective of unlimited individual "jiva-souls" who are eternal, and were NEVER created or generated from any origin.
Each jiva-soul has 78.125% of Krsna's qualities which is having 50 of His 64 qualities. So the proper understanding is the marginal living entities (jiva-souls) are an unlimited perpetual individual personalities who exist with Krsna like the sun-rays exist with the sun-disc and can never be separated.
There are different categories of living entities and the jiva-souls are one of those categories called the jiva-tattva.
The other categories of living entities are Visnu-tattva, who are more direct expansions of Krsna and have 93.75% of Krsna's qualities which is having 60 of Krsna's 64 qualities.
And Siva-tattva (Lord Siva) who is in a league of his own inbetween the Visnu-tattva living entities and the jiva-tattva (jiva-soul) living entities who has 85.938% of Krsna's qualities which is having 55 of Krsna's 64 qualities.
Both Krsna and the jiva-souls cannot exist separate from each other yet are simultaneously separated by individual personality that allows the jiva-souls to have their own unique free will of voluntary participating in Krsna's pastimes, or rejecting Krsna if they choose.
However, Krsna is always in control, He allows free will because He wants the jiva-souls to think for themselves and voluntarily choose to express themselves in their own way making the relationship with Krsna a "two-way" exchange.
Love can only exist with two involved in loving exchanges, love can NEVER exist if it was "all-one." Krsna would be all alone surrounded by mindless drones.
Remember, Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and cause of all causes.
The marginal potency or individual jiva-souls infinitly originate from Goloka-Vrindavana and are spread through out the spiritual world (the Vaikuntha planets) and some, a small minority fall to the material creation, and even further to the impersonal brahmajyoti.
The jiva-souls are always in the category of the marginal potency (individual living entities known also as the jiva-tattva) who can choose to exist in the spiritual world, the material creation or the impersonal Brahmajyoti.
Only the material energy is created and is also temporary and subject to decomposition and decay, while the marginal living entities (jiva-souls) are eternal spiritual beings, who were never created, or generated (originate) from outside of Goloka-Vrindavana within the dormant impersonal brahmajyoti.
No jiva-souls originate from the impersonal brahmajyoti or the Body of Maha-Visnu.
As said above, the word tatastha-sakti is a already fallen condition of the jiva-souls used after they fall from Goloka Vrindavana and Vaikuntha.
The individual marginal living entities (jiva-souls) are Krsna's independent energy who are eternal, they can never be the energetic (Krsna) or Visnu-tattva.
All rebellious jiva-souls (less than 10%) enter first the material creation after leaving Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana via the dreams of Maha-Visnu, and not from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or tatastha-sakti as some claim.
Srila Prabhupada - "We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." (Lecture on BG, August 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - ''These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha." (Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970)
Tatastha-sakti does not describe the jiva-souls in their infinite "none-fallen" position in the Vaikuntha planets and Goloka Vrindavana.
Srila Prabhupada - "Because the individual jiva-soul is apt to fall down sometimes under the clutches of māyā, it is called taṭastha-śakti. Just like in the seaside the shore, the beach, sometimes you see it is covered by water and sometimes it is land; similarly, when we are covered by māyā, that is our jīva-bhūta stage, and when there is no more covering, that is brahma-bhūta stage. When we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, then we are brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20), and when we are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, we are materially conscious, that is māyā." (Lecture BG, Ch 7 Text 4-5, Bombay, March 30, 1971)
Revatīnandana Dasa - "Srila Prabhupāda you very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the jiva-soul then goes into the brahmajyoti, he is considered still fallen. Still fallen. Does that means the whole brahmajyoti is composed of fallen souls? You see my question? If I go there, I'm a jīva-soul, and I go to the brahmajyoti I'm still fallen."
Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes."
Revatīnandana Dasa- "That means all jīva-souls there in the impersonal Brahman (Brahmajyoti) are also fallen souls?"
Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes, existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition (Goloka-Vrindavana and Vaikuntha). The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness.'' (Letter to Revatinandana, LA 13 June, 1970 and 1971 London UK)
The jiva-soul's infinite position in Goloka-Vrindavana have the same bodily features as Krsna-
sat,
cit,
ananda,
vigraha.
Which means-
Eternity,
Knowledge,
Bliss,
Form.
All together as a perpetual bodily form like Krsna's two-arm bodily form in their original position.
The full potential and original feature of all marginal living entities is a two-armed form like Krsna's Body Prabhupada explains.
Devotee – "Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Yes, human form. God is also human form. "Man is made after the shape of God." I think there is in the Bible. Is it not? So God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs."
Hari-sauri Dasa – "How do we understand, then, that there are peacocks and flowers and trees in the spiritual world? Are these not eternal forms?"
Srila Prabhupada – "[describing material form first] Yes, they are more covered, just like if you cover your body with blanket, the hands and legs are invisible. But you are not the blanket. So the trees and plants, they are more covered. They are not in full manifestation. The human form is the full manifestation of the soul."
Hari-sauri Dasa - "Are they covered in the spiritual world?"
Srila Prabhupada - "Not in the spiritual world, there that is voluntary. Some devotee wants to serve Krsna as flower; they become flower there. If I want to be a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Krsna and become flower, voluntarily, and can change from flower to human body if one desires. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Krsna as cow, he serves Krsna as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. It is inconceivable, yet a fact." (SB, Canto 6 Ch 1 Text 1-4, Melb, Australia May 20, 1975)
Srila Prabhupada - "The spirit soul is NOT formless; it has got form, the spirit soul always has form and is expressed as hands, legs, heads, everything. But with our material eyes at the present, our gross eyes, we cannot see these facts; therefore we foolishly believe the jiva-souls have no form." (Lecture BG, Ch 2 Text 14 Mexico, Feb 14, 1975)
Srila Prabhupada - "The "immediate" expansions of the Lord are called svāṁśa or personal direct expansions (Visnu-tattva who are Krsna playing another role in His own pastimes) The "separated" expansions of the Lord are called vibhinnāṁśa - (jiva-tattva or jiva-soul) or independent jiva-souls like us." (BG, Ch 10 Text 37, Purport)
Srila Prabhupada - "As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere." (Hare Krsna Happening record album, New York City, December 1966)
Srila Prabhupada - "So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?’ I immediately fall down." (Lecture July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.)
Srila Prabhupada - "The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha (eternally liberated), because God is eternal and His part and parcels, the living entities, they are also eternal. So that is nitya-siddha (eternally liberated). Nitya-siddha, sädhana-siddha, krpa-siddha-there are different grades. They are all described in the "Nectar of Devotion". So one can become sadhana-siddha." (CC lecture, July 13, 1976)
Srila Prabhupada - "By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can also become nitya-siddha. He can become AGAIN nitya-siddha (eternally liberated)." (Lecture CC, July 13, 1976)
Srila Prabhupada - "So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas (eternally conditioned) AGAIN nitya-siddha (eternally liberated), to bring them back to their original position. It is a difficult task.'' (New York City Temple lecture CC, July 13, 1976)
Srila Prabhupada - "This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation." (SB, Canto 4 Ch 29 Text 83 Purport)
Srila Prabhupada further explains the jiva-souls NEVER originated from the impersonal Brahmajyoti-
Srila Prabhupada - "The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness (an already fallen condition)." (Los Angeles 13 June, 1970)
Srila Prabhupada - "Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. So long as one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness, he does not fall down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness, immediately he falls down." (Letter to Revatinandana, Los Angeles 13 June, 1970)
Devotee – "When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krsna, we have a perfect relationship with Krsna, what causes us to fall down to the material world, because we’re already serving Krsna?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that, "don’t fall down."
Devotee – "Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving Krsna."
Srila Prabhupada – "Because you have got little freedom, you have free will. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire."
Devotee – "In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it says that Krsna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krsna did not want us to come, then why are we here?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Yes, you forced Krsna to allow you to come, just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, "My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there, but he insists, "Oh, I must go. I must go. All right, you go at your risk and suffer. What can be done?" So because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, therefore you have acquired the quality of your father, so God does not interfere with your independence, your free will. If you persist that "I must go and enjoy independently," God says, "All right, you can go." This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy." (Melb, Australia June 25, 1974)
Acyutananda - ''So what made the jiva-soul take birth in the material world in first place?''
Srila Prabhupada - ''In the first place?''
Acyutananda - ''What is the first birth? What is the cause of the first birth."
Srila Prabhupada - ''Yes, that is stated in the Prema-vivarta:
krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare
"We are eternal servant of Krsna. As soon as we want to become master, that is the beginning of our first birth in the material world. We have got independence.
Krsna says, mamaivamso jiva bhutah—we are part and parcel of Krsna—so Krsna has got full independence, but we are minute; therefore we have got minute independence. Our business is to serve Krsna, but as soon as we give up this idea, we want to become master. That is the beginning of our material birth." (Lecture SB, Canto 5 Ch 5 Text 2, Hyderabad, April 11, 1975)
Srila Prabhupada - "So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?’ I immediately fall down, that is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, "If I could become the master." They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking he can."
Vipina Purandara - "Why doesn’t Krsna protect us from that desire to leave Him?"
Srila Prabhupada - "He is protecting you. He says, "You rascal, don’t desire an independent existence without Me, surrender unto Me." But you are rascal; you do not do this."
Vipina Purandara - "Why doesn’t Krsna save me from thinking like that?"
Srila Prabhupada - "That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, if you catch one girl or boy and demand, you love me, you love me, you love me, is it love? "You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?" (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.)
Paramahamsa - "But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return?"
Srila Prabhupada - "There is return, that is voluntary, return is there."
Paramahamsa - "If we want."
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes."
Paramahamsa - "So we can come to the spiritual world and return to the material worlds?"
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes."
Paramahamsa -"Fall down?"
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, as soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice, yes, Krsna says, yes, you go and enjoy the material world, otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." Just like some of our students sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will. Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, "Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here." He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that."
Paramahamsa - ''So our desire to enjoy, we achieve these material bodies; and our desire to achieve Krsna brings us to our natural position."
Srila Prabhupada - ''Yes." (Morning Walk, May 13, 1973, LA)
Therefore we are responsible for our choices and actions and in the material creation free will almost does not exist because one is binded by their own reactions to their pious and impious deeds (karma)
Srila Prabhupada – "Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at anytime, so there is always a chance of falling down by misuse of one’s independence." (Letter to Jagadisa, 04/25/1970)
Srila Prabhupada – Regarding your several questions, where are all the spirit souls coming from? These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities. There is no new soul, new and old are due to this material body, but the soul is never born and never dies, so if there is no birth, how there can be new souls?" (Letter to Jagadisa, 7/9/1970)
Srila Prabhupada - "Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence." (Letter to Jagadisa, 02/27/1970)
Srila Prabhupada - "The relationship with Krsna is never lost, it is simply forgotten by the influence of maya, so it maybe regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new." (Letter to Jagadisa, 02/27/1970)
Returning home back to Godhead is not necessarily permanent Prabhupada explains, that choice to stay or go is also the jiva-souls choice too. Therefore, it is not just a "one-way" decision that only Krsna makes for the jiva-souls and is final. No, real love is exchanges in a relationship and can never exist without allowing free will or individual choices involving the jiva-souls in a two-way exchange with Krsna.
Krsna does not run a totalitarian dictatorial regime in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana making the jiva-souls mindless puppets controlled by the puppet master (God). This means the jiva-souls always have the choice to accept or reject Krsna, and can leave Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana at anytime they choose.
The jiva-souls in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana are forever expanding their expression of individuality with personal voluntary offerings based on free will and selfless loving reciprocal exchanges with Krsna, it is never a "one-sided" master/slave relationship with the Krsna (God)
Srila Prabhupada - "Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force, no, Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, You love me, otherwise I shall kill you! That is not love it is exploitation." (Washington DC July 8, 1976)
Real love, bhakti or service is always reciprocal, as said above, it is never a one-sided affair where surrender to Krsna takes away your sense of self, individuality and the ability to provide personal contributions and offerings by having independent choices.
This is important to understand because each individual jiva-souls each have their own independent personality, sense of self and unique personality and character separate from Krsna's Personality.
These are the unique qualities and make up of each individual marginal living entity (jiva-soul), making them the "person" they are eternally.
Srila Prabhupada - "Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. "So God does not interfere with your independence." (Conversation Melb, Australia June 25, 1974)
Devotee - "Srila Prabhupada why did Krsna give us free will if He knew we would miss use it?"
Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will! But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone either. That is not life." (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)
Free will or freedom is something never acquired, nor ever given up or surrendered in the spiritual world. Free will is eternally part and parcel of the jiva-souls (marginal living entities) natural constitution and make-up and therefore, it always exists as part and parcel of their character without beginning or end in the spiritual world.
Free will in its full potential is only fully experienced on th Vaikuntha planets jivain Goloka-Vrindavan (the spiritual worlds), which are the jiva-souls original perpetual infinite home.
Srila Prabhupada – ''Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The jiva-souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at anytime, so there is always a chance of falling down by misuse of one’s independence." (Letter to Jagadisa, 04/25/1970)
HERE HERE HERE HERE
The jiva-souls (marginal living entities) never emerged or originated from some nonsense dormant clear sheet of consciousness that fools claim is always growing with new jiva-souls known as the dormant Brahmajyoti, Brahman as impersonalist gurus, sannyasis and their followers foolishly believe.
There is no such place as tatastha-sakti either where souls are literally generated or originate from, such teachings are nonsense.
As said above, tatastha-sakti is a name describing "the fallen condition" of the jiva-souls.
Tatastha-sakti is not the original beginning point of the jiva-souls because there is no beginning point.
Like Krsna and Visnu, the jiva-souls have eternally been together, and just like the Sun-disc and the sun-rays, they can never be separated.
And remember, tatastha-sakti is already a "fallen conditioned state" the jiva-souls have fallen too long, long, long ago.
The marginal potency or marginal living entities are like the sun-rays surrounding the Sun-disc, however, in the case of Krsna and the jiva-souls, both have always been, both have always existed.
The marginal living entities or jiva-souls are known as tatastha-sakti only in their "conditioned state" outside Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.
As explained above, tatastha-sakti is not a place, it is a name describing those jiva-souls "conditioned" in the material creation, or those jiva-souls "conditioned" in the dormant (inactive) impersonal Brahmajyoti.
Both conditions are already a fallen condition, so clearly the jiva-souls never originated from an already fallen position.
This means the jiva-souls never originated from tatastha-sakti.
It is said by some that the jiva-souls come from the marginal plane but that simple means they are individual parts and parcels of Krsna's marginal energy who are everywhere in the Spiritual Sky.
The jiva-souls were never created by Krsna because the marginal living entity (jiva-souls) are part and parcel of Krsna's Body, and like Krsna, are eternal without beginning or end.
Only the material worlds are created and are temporary due to being in a constant state of decay.
The fact is, on the spiritual platform there is no creation of the individual jiva-souls, they were never created, they have always been.
Srila Prabhupāda - "The jiva-soul is part and parcel of God. As God is not created, He is creator, above creation, so the father creates a child; therefore father is above creation. So God is above creation. God created the cosmic manifestation (material worlds). Before creation of this cosmic world, God was there. Therefore He is not created; He is creator of all created things. And the jiva-soul, being part and parcel of God, he is also not created." (Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize, June 23, 1975 LA)
All jiva-souls coming to the material creation directly originate from Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavan, their homes, where they are beginningless and endless like Krsna and Visnu as explained above.
The jiva-soul have no origin because they have always been however, their original home is Goloka-Vrindavana, and their original form is a two armed form like Krsna's as Prabhupada has explained above.
In the spiritual worlds there is no creation of any kind including the individual jiva-souls, they were never created like Krsna was never created.
The individual jiva-souls are unique independent parts and parcel of Krsna just like the sunrays are part of the Sun-disc yet independent also. The jiva-souls are just as old as Krsna (beginningless).
This means the jiva-souls are without beginning or end.
Srila Prabhupada - "Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence."(Letter to Jagadisa, 02/27/1970)
Only the material worlds (matter or material energy) is created, not the spiritual worlds or living beings.
When Krsna wanted to experience a loving relationship He knew it could never exist with just one so He divided Himself into two, Srimati Radharani and Krsna, the Divine couple.
The marginal living entities (jīva-souls) are a part and parcel of Krsna and cannot be separated from the Supreme, yet are also simultaneously separated as independent living beings with their own sense of self, individuality, personality and free will, they are not Krsna but are fully dependent on Krsna.
Room Conversation - May 10, 1969, Columbus, Ohio with His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada -
Pradyumna - "Do the five direct rasas take place between jīva-souls also when they are..."
Srila Prabhupāda - "Everything for jīva-souls, all relationship. Kṛṣṇa is one, the Supreme, and all the jīva-souls are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore the eternal relationship is there. Now they are exhibited in these twelve kinds of humor, either directly or indirectly." (Room Conversation - May 10, 1969, Columbus, Ohio)
Srila Prabhupada - "The jīva-soul, a part and parcel, cannot be separated from the Supreme. Sun and the light, electric bulb, and the diffusion of light, they cannot be separated. But this portion is covered. It appears darkness. So when it is covered, that is called māyā, and he thinks that "I have no relationship with God," or "I am God, there is no God." This is māyā. He is covered. He cannot see. So he has to be treated by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness treatment, and the māyā will be separated, and he will see, "Ah, yes, I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa." Then he comes to the direct relationship." (May 10, 1969, Columbus, Ohio)
It is important to understand that no jiva-souls originate from the dormant Brahmajyoti, impersonal Brahman or tatasta-sakti (an already fallen conditional state)
The fact is all marginal living entities (jiva-souls) originate directly from Goloka-Vrindavana where they all have an eternal svarupa spiritual body but can voluntarily change to a bodily form of their choice, where the Lords pastimes are perpetually happening.
Srila Prabhupāda – "Unless there are "two-persons", where is the question of love? Love means two persons, then there is exchange, then there is love. I must deal with you open-hearted, you must deal with me open-hearted, then there is love. So if you want to love Kṛṣṇa, God, then these things must be there." (August 9, 1976, Tehran)
Srila Prabhupada – "So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, or one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that is not independence, that is force." (Los Angeles, June 23, 1975)
Srila Prabhupada - "Unless there is a possibility of misusing our free will, there is no question of freedom." (Dialectical Spiritualism, Critique of Descartes)
The choice to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana is possible because Krsna allows a "two-way" relationship, this means the jiva-souls can accept or reject Krsna if they choose, otherwise without free will, how could you claim you have a "two-way" relationship with Krsna?
Srila Prabhupada - "Free will means that you can act wrongly. That is free will, unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then? If I act only one sided, that means I have no free will. Because we act sometimes wrongly, that means free will."
Hayagriva - "A man may know better but still act wrongly."
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, but that is free will He misuses his. Just like a thief, he knows that his stealing is bad but still he does it. That is free will. He cannot check his greediness, so in spite of his knowing that he is doing wrong thing—he will be punished, he knows; he has seen another thief, he was punished, he was put into prison— everything he knows, but still he steals. Why? Misuse of free will. Unless there is misuse of free will, there is no question of free will." (Prabhupada with Rene Descartes)
Syamasundara - "Can we predict that returning back home, back to Godhead will be permanent? Can we predict that? Just like many prisoners leave the prison, however, some do come back?"
Srila Prabhupada - "No, there is no permanent effect because we have got little independence. There is nothing permanent because you can misuse your independence at any time and leave when ever you choose."
Syamasundara - "So some come back to the material creation?"
Srila Prabhupada -"Yes, otherwise there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do this, you can do that. "All right. Whatever you like."
Devotee - "Then the jiva-soul is so many times falling down, again and again, so will he eventually permanently come back?"
Srila Prabhupada - "He has got independence, therefore there is always the possibility he can misuse his independence and fall down. That's why when a man is released from the prison house, that does not mean permanently because he can come back again, the general law is not to come back, but if he likes, he can come back, otherwise what is the meaning of independence? But naturally if one becomes free from the prison house, he should not return there again."(Prabhupada discussion with Syamasundara and Henri Bergson)
For those who believe no one can ever fall down from Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana once there, have not understood these clear points explained by Srila Prabhupada.
In Bhagavad Gita As It Is, Krsna promises the jiva-souls they will never again fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana to the material creation, and yes, Krsna will always keeps His promise however, are the jiva-souls forced to accept that promise from Krsna which means the jiva-souls lose their free will in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana and can never leave even if they want to, because of that promise from Krsna?
The fact is, Krsna's promise of never falling down to the material creation is from Krsna, but the fact is, the jiva-souls do not have to accept that promise from Krsna as final, they can reject that too because of their free will?
An important point to understand.
There must always be a choice (free will) in the spiritual worlds otherwise there can be no question of loving voluntary exchanges that enrich and expand the relationship.
Fortunately over 90% of jiva-souls at one time choose to never fall down, only less than 10% choose to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana Prabhupada has explained.
However, that also can change over eternity, after all, the jiva-souls are beginningless and endless.
Srila Prabhupada wrote me a letter when I was a young man of 23 years old in early 1975 (found in vaniquotes).
I admitted to Prabhupada I was having difficulty that was not helped by our Sydney Temple being demolished by local council authorities (Bulldozed into the ground leaving us out on the sidewalk, including the Radha Gopinath Deities)
Many devotees left the movement as the struggle became too difficult for them however, I chose to stay when we moved to our incense factory building in an rough industrial area of Redfern Sydney.
So out of frustration, I wrote to Prabhupada expressing my frustrations and struggles, he wrote back bluntly saying I must follow his order and have no choice because I had already promised a few years ealier to follow his order at my initiation, otherwise, he warned me, I was only carving my way to hell!
Even though Prabhupada said I had no choice, the fact is for him to say-
"Follow my teachings otherwise your going to hell" obviously clearly indicates I always have a choice.
Being young and immature as I was back then nearly 50 years ago, Prabhupada was really warning his young disciple to properly use "free will" and not miss use it.
So even though Prabhupada said I have no choice, the fact is there is always a choice-
"Follow Prabhupada's teachings, or go to hell."
Some, like my parents were disgusted and not impressed with what they described as Prabhupada's hash cold comments to their young son, believing Prabhupada did not understand the difficulties the Temple in Sydney was going through at that time, and at least I stayed while many other devotees left never to be seen again.
Sadly over the years many immature leaders (including gurus, sannyasis and devotees) in ISKCON who have no idea what my relationship with Prabhupada is (that included my parents), have used that letter to put me down and belittle my faith and still do to this day.
Fortunately, when Prabhupada came a year after that letter was sent, he called me to his room and spoke nicely to me, concerned for my welfare and humbly asked me to never leave him.
Ultimately each individual jiva-soul is a unique person with their own personality who can choose for themselves how to voluntarily serve Krsna the Supreme Personality of Godhead and cause of all causes, the best way they can, or ignore Him if they want.
As Prabhupada has explained, Krsna never forces the jiva-souls to surrender to Him, never forces them to love Him, that must be voluntary otherwise love can never genuinely exist unless there are voluntary reciprocal exchanges.
Srila Prabhupada - ''Love means you take and you give also. Suppose if you love somebody and you simply take from him, but you don't give. Oh, do you think it is very good? No. It is not good. That is not love. That is exploitation. If I go on simply taking from you, and if I don't offer you anything, that is simply exploitation." (Lecture on BG Chapter 9 text 2-5, New York City, November 23, 1966)
Srila Prabhupada - ''We have got the propensity to love. Love means somebody else. Love cannot be one or love cannot be executed only with one, personally. There must be another one. I love somebody; somebody loves me, there must be two, there must be lover, there must be beloved in a two-way exchange otherwise how can there be love?" (Lecture on SB Canto 1 Chapter 2 text 6, Delhi, November 12, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - ''Their (impersonalist) philosophy is oneness. So how there be love with just one? Is it possible? Have you got any such experience that love means one? No. Love means two. There must be two, the lover and the beloved. Kṛṣṇa is already lover. He loves you so much that He's trying to get you back. That is Kṛṣṇa's attempt. "Please, My dear boy, or My dear friend, My dear servant." (Lecture on SB Canto 2 Chapter 1 text 3, Paris, June 12, 1974)
Impersonalism has many meanings, there are other impersonalist who believe surrendering to Krsna means giving up your free will and unique personality and becoming Krsna's mindless yes man or women and puppet on a string.
The above impersonal version of Krsna consciousness must be rejected Prabhupada explains.
Srila Prabhupada – "In Bengali it is said, If you catch one girl or boy, you love me, you love me, you love me, is that love? You love me otherwise I will kill you!? Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver." (Washington DC July 1976)
As Prabhupada has explained, Krsna never forces the jiva-souls to surrender to Him, He never forces them to love Him, that must be voluntary otherwise love can never exist unless there is that endeavour to establish voluntary reciprocal exchanges.
Having free will or freedom is something never acquired, nor can ever be given up or surrendered in the spiritual world.
Free will is eternally part and parcel of the jiva-soul's natural constitution as a spiritual living entity and perpetually exists without beginning or end in the spiritual planets.
Therefore free will in its full potential is only fully experienced in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavan, which are the jiva-soul's original perpetual homes.
On the other hand, free will in the material creation is greatly restricted and only experienced minutely in the human species.
In all other species of life in the material creation, there is no free will or the ability to enquire about the purpose of existence, there is only the instincts of eating, sleeping, mating and defending.
So the human form (material bodily vessel) the jiva-soul has occupied, is very important because it is the most advanced species that can assist the trapped jiva-soul to get out of the material creation.
Such a material bodily vessel is very, very rare among the 8 million 400 thousand species of life, there are only 400 thousand human species, making the human body the only way out of the material creation under the guidance of a spiritual teacher or master.
Krsna never forces the jiva-souls to surrender to Him or love Him, that they must choose for themselves, if He did use force, then that is not love, it is coerced surrender, exploitation and abuse.
There is always free will and the ability to always choose in both Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana which means one can choose accept or reject Krsna eternally.
Otherwise there is no meaning to free will.
A devotee once ask Srila Bhaktisiddhanta why was the jiva-souls granted free will when they could misuse it?
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta answered-
"You are fighting for freedom. Don’t you know the value of having free will? Devoid of freedom the jiva-soul is only matter. Real freedom or free will therefore offers the jiva-soul the alternative to do either right or wrong."
Gandhi then demanded-
"We want our freedom too."
The British authorities replied-
"You are not fit to have self-government or freedom. When you are fit, we shall give it to you."
Gandhi then demanded-
"We want the freedom to do right or wrong too."
So having one's freedom does not guarantee only acting in the right way; no, the choice must be there to also do wrong if on chooses.
Free will means always to be able to choose for yourself what is right or wrong for you, and not forced by others to do what they believe is right or wrong for you.
Therefore the possibility of also rejecting Krsna must always be there too in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana because that's what free will also means - to always have a choice.
So those who claim the jiva-soul never again falls down from Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana are talking nonsense no matter who they are or claim to be.
However, it is a fact that over 90% of jiva-souls have never been to the material creation, which means they have never left Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana.
The jiva-souls always have free will in both Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana and choose for themselves what they want to do, most never leave Krsna but less than 10% do choose to leave the spiritual worlds.
Our first choice after rejecting Krsna in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana, is to dominate and imitate Krsna, it is that choice, due to free will, that causes the jiva soul to enter the material temporary creation and try to dominate.
This choice of entering the material creation has nothing to do with the influence of Maya and the material energy.
This is because the material energy does not exist in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana.
As a result of the rebellious jiva-soul's "choice" to reject Krsna, there relocation to the material creation begins to developed based on the desire to enjoy separately.
Srila Prabhupada has explained that the "original position" of the jiva soul is always with Krsna in the spiritual world, engaged in a reciprocal relationship based on voluntary loving exchanges.
This is the jiva-soul's real eternal home and original position.
As explained above, Maya can never be blamed for the fall down of the jiva-soul from Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana to the material creation in any way.
As already exlained, Maya in her role as the personification of material energy, does not exist in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana, therefore Maya can never tempt the jiva-souls to forget Krsna in anyway.
Generally the only cause of fall down in most cases is the free will to make one's own choice to live separate from Krsna.
Another rare cause is offending great devotees like the gate keepers of Vaikuntha, Jai and Vijay did when they offended the four Kumaras by not letting them in to Vaikuntha (story in Srimad Bhagavatam)
The jiva-souls have free will eternally in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana as part and parcel of their marginal constitutional make up as perpetual living entities.
Dr. John Mize – "Did all the jiva-souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any jiva-souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?"
Srila Prabhupada – "No, there are… Majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down."
Dr. John Mize – "So we’re among the 10%?"
Srila Prabhupada – Yes, or less than that. In the material, the whole material world all the living entities they are… Just like in the prison house, there is some population, but they are not majority. The majority of the population, they are outside the prison house. Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the spiritual world. Only a few fall down."
Dr. John Mize – "Does Krsna know ahead of time that a soul is going to be foolish and fall?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Krsna? Yes, Krsna may know because He is omniscient."
Dr. John Mize – "Are more jiva-souls falling all the time?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Not all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence. Everyone is not liking to misuse the independence. The same example: Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal. So their shelter must be also constructed. It is very easy to understand. Not that cent percent population will be criminal, but government knows that some of them will be. Otherwise why they construct prison house also? One may say, "Where is the criminal? You are constructing…" Government knows, there will be criminal. So if the ordinary government can know, why God cannot know? Because there is tendency."
Dr. John Mize – "The origin of that tendency (to fall from Goloka) is…?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Yes."
Dr. John Mize – "From where does that tendency come?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krsna says, yathecchasi tathä kuru. "Now you do whatever you like." (BG lecture, Mayapur, June 20, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - "Factually all of material existence is only a dream. Thus there is no question of past, present or future. Persons who are addicted to karma-kanda-vicara, which means ‘working for future happiness through fruitive activities’, are also dreaming. Similarly, past happiness and present happiness are merely dreams." (SB, Canto 4, 29.2b)
The fallen jiva-souls enters the material creation via the dreams of Maha-Visnu.
This means they must "hire" a suitable material bodily vessel from Maha-Visnu who is dreaming the entire material creation, including all material bodily vessels.
It only appears to some the jiva-souls are still in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana dreaming they are in the material creation because "time" in the material creation is the constantly changing and is temporary.
Therefore the jiva-souls experience a journey through past, present and future that has no effect on the spiritual platform.
In other words "time" in the spiritual worlds does not experience past or future, which means only the perpetual presence exists on all spiritual planets.
This means only the "eternal presence" of Krsna and Visnu exists in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana as Brahma-Samhita explains.
That is why Prabhupada explained to us that after spending millions of life times in the material creation under the decaying influence of "past, present and future", on return to the "eternal presence" of Goloka-Vrindavana, it will appear as if the jiva-souls have only gone for less than a moment.
The idea of sleeping and dreaming you are in the material creation is nonsense and not what's really going on, no, the jiva-souls do actually go to the material creation, but on return to the spiritual world, it will appear that they never left.
This is because material time does not register on the spiritual planets, nothing material can exist there just like darkness cannot exist in the presence of light.
The material creation is governed by the movement of time - past, present and future, thats effect on all matter is a constant state of decomposition or decay.
The material creation is as real as the spiritual planets, but unlike the spiritual planets that are permanent, the material creation is temporary.
This causes everything the jiva-souls are involved with to be temporary.
The eternal jiva-souls inside a material bodily vessel in the material creation, are in an unnatural condition because they are beginningless and endless, there is no death or birth for the jiva-souls as Bhagavad Gita Chapter 2 text 12 teaches.
Only in the material creation in a material bodily vessel is birth, youth, disease, middle age, old age and death experienced.
Not so in the spiritual worlds where the "eternal presence" of time means past and future has no effect on the journey of time making everything eternaly and youthful and ever fresh.
In other words, nothing decays in the spiritual worlds, one's spiritual bodily form is eternal youthful but can change if the jiva-soul chooses, depending on what pastime they voluntarily choose to be in with Krsna or Visnu.
Srila Prabhupada - "In the spiritual world one's relationship with Krsna is voluntary. Some devotee wants to serve Krsna as flower; they become flower there. If I want to be a flower, I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Krsna and become flower, voluntarily, and can change appearance if I want, from flower to a human form. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Krsna as cow, he serves Krsna as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. It is inconceivable, yet a fact." (SB, Canto 6, 1.1-4 - Melb, May 20, 1975)
Srila Prabhupada - "Just like we forget at night when we see some dream, we forget our identity, that "I am this. I am that. I am lying on the bed. I've got this good apartment, no, everything is finished.
Again, this, when the dream is finished, we come to another dream: "Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance." This is going on.
One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity (jiva-soul)
So his business is different. Not dreaming, day time dreaming and night time dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
If he takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is his actual life, otherwise, he's in the dreamland. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). This is called māyā, illusion.
Night time dreaming and daytime dreaming. The night time dream... In this way, we are dreaming life after life. As human being, as animal, as tree, as aquatics. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati. This evolutionary process is going on." (The Nectar of Devotion - Bombay, December 27, 1972)
The jiva-souls enter the material creation to experience their desires without Krsna. To do that they must get facility off Maha-Visnu which is a suitable material bodily vessel found within His dreams that are insync with their own desires.
All material facilities including the material bodily vessels, belong to Maha-Visnu.
Srila Prabhupada – "Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma-Samhita describes-
"This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation." (SB, Canto 4,29.83)
Srila Prabhupada - "Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature." (SB, Canto 4,29.2b)
Maha-Visnu is dreaming everything in the material creation, His dreams include all bodily vessesl and their facilities used by the jiva-souls (all hired from Maha-Viṣṇu)
Srila Prabhupada - "Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krsna consciousness, we break the dream." (Tokyo Japan 1972: SB, Canto 2.9.1)^**^..
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