Trying to better understand the mental illness of some devotees and congregational members in ISKCON

November 5, 2013 at 2:36am

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Mental illness is not understood very well in ISKCON, often devotee’s broadcast a 40 year old quote from Prabhupada that condemns psychiatrists and mental health professionals however, understanding mental illness has come a long way in the last 40 years and the following comment should not be applied today.

 

Srila Prabhupada - Psychiatrists are humbug, all humbug. They cannot help. Best thing is to be engaged in continuously chanting and hearing Sankirtana, that will cure anyone of mental disease. (Prabhupada. “Letter to Upendra”. February 19, 1972) –

 

Today I believe those comments by Srila Prabhupada do not apply and are certainly NOT relevant to today’s time, place and circumstance because in most cases the medicine given by modern psychiatrist does help one perform their devotional service and to call them all humbug in today’s world is not correct and does not apply. Over the last 40 years the world has changed and some of the things Srila Prabhupada said back then about psychiatry cannot be applied to today’s psychiatry, for example, psychiatry back in Srila Prabhupada’s day was influence strongly by Freudian ideas who Srila Prabhupada criticized.

 

Śrīla Prabhupāda says, “By speculating on some shock that may or may not have occurred in childhood, one will never discover the root disease…. He [Freud] did not know the basic principle of spiritual understanding, which is that we are not this body…. We are different from this body, and we are transmigrating from one body to anothe

 

Today many psychiatrists also reject the outdated Freudian ideas, His method of cure was to have the patient try to recall the painful events of their childhood or some trauma in their lives and analyse them, and this is the psychiatry Srila Prabhupada referred to and called nonsense. Today’s psychiatric therapy is more in favour of chemical medicines like anti depressants and anti psychotics that acts on the brain substance that is damaged due to trauma.  

 

There are many researchers who believe that an imbalance in serotonin levels may influence mood in a way that leads to depression. Back in the 1970s this treatment was in its infancy. Srila Prabhupada never commented on that form of psychiatry that is so prominent in today’s 21st Century, so to blanket all psychiatrist with the saying ’they cannot help’ or they are ‘all humbug’ found in Srila Prabhupada’s letter, is just simply NOT true today.

 

Srila Prabhupada’s main point in all his preaching is we finish up our selfish business in this material world and return back home back to Godhead. To help us in our devotional service sometimes we have to accept the help of the medical industry, some devotees have had heart bypass surgery by what some fanatical devotees call ‘the meat eating karmi demons’.

 

I remember some years ago a devotee was also offered psychiatric help but was put off by immature Temple authorities saying that no meat eating nonsense karmi demon can ever help a devotee, only Krishna can help you, He is the ONLY real doctor!. Sadly this dogma is prevalent in many ISKCON Temples who are always calling Hospitals, doctors and psychiatrists demons causing devotees and congregational members to avoid the help of modern medicine and suffer because of such extremism.

 

Such immature fanatical nonsense fundamentalism will only keep ISKCON devotees and sincere congregational members, who need medical help, just suffer in the ignorance of mental illness under the advice of immature ISKCON authorities. The fact is, don’t listen to these people’s opinions on mental illness, always have faith that Krishna helps those who seek out the medical help they need to help themselves overcome mental illness. All doctors and psychiatrists are not demons there are many good ones who can help you

 

The fact is our medical profession HAS come a long way since Srila Prabhupada was here and in some cases, you CANNOT apply his teachings to all time, place and circumstance. All psychiatrists are NOT humbug in today’s world, they also, like doctors, can help devotees, some doctors and psychiatrists are even devotees! Pusta Krishna dasa has been a doctor for over 30 years

 

 Mental illness is misunderstood in ISKCON because of fanatical views in these early pioneering years.

 

The letter by Srila Prabhupada was sent 4I years ago in relation to the Temple Presidents wife in Melbourne Australia when she had a mental breakdown. When devotees went to get her out of the mental asylum, they sat her in front of the Altar and got her to chant Hare Krishna as Srila Prabhupada requested. Unfortunately, due to unknown reasons, she was gone within a few hours never to be seen again, frankly for that time, place and circumstance it was the best thing to do and Srila Prabhupada’s letter back then was applicable however, that same situation may have been handled differently today because there are many medications available now that was not available back then that could of helped settle her mind so she could do some service if that is what she really wanted. Therefore, you CANNOT apply that letter to all time, place and circumstance.

 

Another time the devotee Sangana dasa was also put in a mental institution and to quiet his mind and was given an anti psychotic, this gave him stability, he was stable enough, thanks to the medication given by his psychiatrist, to sit and chant Hare Krishna and became famous for washing pots.

 

Of course, one who is sick, be it the biological body or brain, should also chant Hare Krishna alongside the medicine they are receiving. This was the most important point Srila Prabhupada was making. As already said, in the case of Sangana dasa, the anti psychotic medication worked and helped him practically engage in devotional service on his pathway to eventually be fully dependant on Krishna. In fact in his case, he could not even function without his medication; it was his determination that kept him remaining in contact with the devotees. The devotees did not really know how to understand his condition; he just kept coming to the Temple so they just tolerated his mental illness for years without having any real input or idea of how to deal with it. It was not a question of telling him to take his medication, the fact was, if he did not take it, then we would not see him. This actually happened from time to time. Therefore we should thank his psychiatrists for keeping him healthy and his own determination to simultaneously depend on Krishna for helping him stay in contact with devotees.   

 

The point is, we have now come a long way in psychiatry over the last 40 years and psychiatry is NOT humbug today. In fact they were all not even humbug even back then as the case of Sangana dasa proves! The anti psychotic he was taking was very new in the late 1970s and helped him remain functional

 

It is just like the chanting of Hare Krishna alone will not cure a broken leg similarly the chanting alone will not cure a diseased brain, just like the broken leg needs a cast; the brain substance may need an anti-depressant or anti-psychotic as in the case of Sangana dasa and many others during their lifetime in ISKCON who foolishly neglected their mental illness for so many years because they put their faith and trust in unqualified Temple authorities. Such Temple leaders would often say “ snap out of it prabhu, your in Maya, get off the mental platform! Just chant Hare Krishna and get over it there is no other way!”  Such narrow minded and ignorant instructions will never help anyone with mental illness!

 

 Mental illness caused by brain damage is often difficult to understand. In most cases, it is something you cannot get over unless you take medication, just like you cannot heal a badly broken arm unless you put it in a cast, attempting to heal the brain substance also requires medical help.

 

One must practise Krishna Consciousness in a practical way therefore the example of the chanting Hare Krishna alone will not heal a broken leg or arm is a simple enough comparison to understand. This also means that to chant Hare Krishna alone and ignore medical help for mental illness is also absurd and foolish in today’s world!

 

The fact is however, one should chant Hare Krishna enthusiastically under all conditions however, when possible, one should also seek help to keep the material body healthy. Of course doctors are not going to help us on our death bed, only the chanting of Hare Krishna can do that.

 

Here are some interesting quotes about understanding Srila Prabhupada’s instructions according to time, place and circumstance - -

 

Jayadvaita Swami – “What Prabhupada said sometimes differed. Sometimes he spoke for the benefit of an individual, sometimes for the world. Sometimes what he said was for the moment, sometimes forever. So as well as we can we need to recognize, in what Prabhupada said, not only the content but the intent”.

 

Jayadvaita Swami – “Srila Prabhupada responds to the questions of specific individuals. Though again the philosophy is always the same, we cannot assume that how he speaks it to one person is how he would speak it to all. With one inquirer he might be stern, with another sympathetic, with one subtle, with another deliberately simple. We’d be rash to cite one instance as evidence of how he would respond in all instances”.

 

Jayadvaita Swami – “What Prabhupada said sometimes differed. Sometimes he spoke for the benefit of an individual, sometimes for the world. Sometimes what he said was for the moment, sometimes forever. So as well as we can we need to recognize, in what Prabhupada said, not only the content but the intent”.

 

Jayadvaita Swami – “Srila Prabhupada is again addressing a particular person, in a particular time and circumstance. And this time his words are sent in a sealed envelope, not spoken in a public assembly. His words, therefore, may be intended for many people or only for one. They may give instructions meant to apply always and to everyone or only to a special circumstance and one recipient”. All these quotes are found here -http://info.vedabase.com/index.....whattomake

 

The following are very interesting comments by Dr. Pusta Krishna dasa who was Srila Prabhupada’s personal servant in the mid 1970s

 

“I must be one of those demons that a recent devotee speaks of when he talks about hospitals and modern medicine (saying they are all demons!). In my opinion, you have to be clear about physical health and the use of healers. If you subscribe to homeopathy or Ayur vedic treatments, that is a choice you personally make. Surely, you must know that Srila Prabhupad and so many others used medicines and treatments of those fields. His Divine Grace also would use western medicine, even surgery, when necessary, to sustain his life and his service. Prabhu, you do not know everything.

 

 As a practicing physician and surgeon for over 30 years, you cannot imagine how much suffering I have encountered, and have been able to help. In my field, trauma to the limbs and the spine, injuries to soft tissues (skin, tendons, nerves), and infections (life and limb threatening, of which I have two patients in the hospital now), are all worthy pursuits.

 

It is so easy for those who are healthy and currently free from severe pain, to say “humbug” to the science and people who work to alleviate pain for others, and place the well-being of their patients above their own. Most such people who cry “humbug” are themselves enjoyers of the illusory energy.

 

 Psychiatry is a field of medicine. It involves psychology when dealing with neurotic behaviour, but it can involve medications when serious depression and psychosis occur. While not everyone is fully versed in that field, including myself, my eyes are not closed to the reality of mental illness. Is it simply bad karma? Sure, but do you have enough compassion to help others, both physically and spiritually.

 

If you have the capacity and expertise, then you must help. If you don’t have the capacity or expertise, then please do not denigrate the sincere efforts of others to alleviate suffering. Prahlad was paradukhadhuki, he felt suffering for the suffering of others. While the chanting of the Holy Names is the ultimate path back to Home, if you try to make light of the physical and mental suffering of others, then you might one day find yourself the recipient of such unconcerned people when you your self are suffering. It will come back to you, as it must. Even the Bible says that those who show compassion for others, will receive compassion.

 

 It is safer, if you have the heart, to err on the side of being compassionate and caring toward those who are less fortunate. After all, fortune is in the hands of the Supreme Lord.  Let us therefore become more aware of the needs of devotees, being the servant of the servant, and try to bring affectionate care in our dealings with devotees.”.

 

One important footnote to those comments by Srila Prabhupada - to engage in our devotional service we need a healthy body and that means we may need the help of medical professionals, be them doctors or modern psychiatrists (obviously not the Freudian camp of psychiatrists that Srila Prabhupada said are all nonsense) there are other psychiatrists however, who promote anti-depressants and anti-psychotics medication which have already been proven to help devotees and aspiring devotees. If they can help you then they are certainly not humbug, Srila Prabhupada’s ultimate mission is to free us all from the entanglement of repeated birth and death and return back home back to Godhead, if we need some medical help in pursuing this goal, then get the help you need, do not ignore mental illness.

 

Hare Krishna, your fallen servant Gauragopala dasa 

Could past, present and future exist simultaneously. How could this be?

Srila Prabhupada  - "Arjuna can see EVERYTHING that exists in any part of the universe. Kṛṣṇa gives him the power to see anything he wants to see, "past, present and future". Thus by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna is able to see EVERYTHING" BG 11.7 purport.

Could past, present and future exist simultaneously.

How could this be?

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 11.7

Translation

O Arjuna, whatever you wish to see, behold at once in this body of Mine! This universal form can show you whatever you now desire to see and whatever you may want to see in the future. Everything — moving and nonmoving — is here completely, in one place.

Purport

No one can see the entire universe while sitting in one place. Even the most advanced scientist cannot see what is going on in other parts of the universe.

But a devotee like Arjuna can see everything that exists in any part of the universe.

Kṛṣṇa gives him the power to see anything he wants to see, past, present and future.

Thus by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna is able to see EVERYTHING". End of purport.

The great sages and devotees in previous ages thousands of years ago were tri-kāla-jñā. Tri-kāla-jñā means they could understand, they could know what was in the past, what there shall be in the future, and what is at present.

Srila Prabhupada - ''So the point is that five thousand years ago the things which were written for this age, how they are coming to be true in our experience. That is the point: how they could see past, present, and future so nicely.

The sages were known as tri-kāla-jñā. Tri means three. There is almost similarity, tri and three. Tri is Sanskrit, and three is English or Latin, but there is similarity. Tri-kāla-jñā.

Tri means three, and kāla means time.

Time is experienced by three ways: past, present and future. Time limitation, past, present and future. Whenever you speak of time, it is past, present or future.

So the sages in those days were tri-kāla-jñā. Tri-kāla-jñā means they could understand, they could know what was in the past, what there shall be in the future, and what is at present.

Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says,

"My Dear Arjuna, you, Me, I, and all these kings and soldiers who have assembled in this battlefield, they were all individuals, and we are still individual. And in this past, in the future, we shall all remain individuals."

That past, present, and future, he explained.

Another place Kṛṣṇa says, vedāhaṁ samatītāni (BG 7.26). Atītāni, atītāni means past. Vartamānāni ca, "and present." So that is yogic power.

One CAN know past, present, and future''. SB 12.2.1 -- San Francisco, March 18, 1968 (End of class lecture).

There is still a lot more to learn about the movement of the marginal living entity through space and time in the material creation, we have only scratched the surface in understanding Vedic texts in the 50 years since Srila Prabhupada made his valuable contribution to the Western World.

The movement of time is eternal while this material universe exists.

And all material vessels or bodily containers are part and parcel of the material time and space, we are simply the passengers riding on/in this material energy/bodies.

The individual living entities or jivas exists in those vessels given to them by Maha Vishnu according to selfish desires and the reactions to past pious and impious actions in a previous material body.

But does past, present and future in the material creation all exist simultaneously?

Why would this be so?

Because of the material desires of the individual marginal living entity would eventually repeat themselves over eternity.

There is no harm in philosophical speculation as long as we do not deviate from sastra, how else are we to learn?

Many have asked, "could the past activities of Arjuna still be happening today somewhere in the universe with another jiva playing that part?"

Due to the past, present and future happening simultaneously, well could his bodily vessel also be a 'post' like Brahmas?

Meaning only those individual marginal living entities that are qualified can also experience their relationship with Krishna while in that vessel as Arjuna.

If this is true, the material universes are also repeating themselves except with a different batch of individual jiva souls possessing the material bodily vessels in each repetition or reoccurrence of the material universe.

Spiritual energy is made up of individual souls, spiritual energy is NOT all one.

However, material energy that makes up all material bodily vessels or containers is all one. For example when the material body we are in wears out and decays, it breaks down and merges back into the material elements or the earth around us.

Only the soul never decays and eternally remains an individual person.

Could the material universes concept of time of past, present and future exists all at the same time?

This means that all material bodily vessels, like yours and mine, are a permanent fixture of the particular material universe it is in and is eternally repeating itself as it goes through its temporary phases of existence in this impermanent universe.

Srila Prabhupada always encouraged us to have personal realizations and yes this one is more thought provoking that even Einstein believed was possible.

Keep in mind, the 'dreams' of Maha Vishnu are mind boggling and if Arjuna could view past, present and future simultaneously, maybe it all does exist together as he saw it.

I have not found anything on this subject to verify or deny these realizations but this would also mean time travel is possible because the past and future already exist however, it would impossible to change the past or future as it is fixed.

One is just traveling through what is already there, what already exists like traveling on a road that already exists.

Another example is just like when one rewinds a video tape, the contends captured will always be the same at every stage on the tape.

Similarly, there are some who believe that the body we are now in is like a 'post', meaning time and space itself is recorded on the eternal level in the material universe and we can take our next birth in a bodily vessel that has already existed in past time, present time or future time.

That means when we choose a bodily vessel, the pathway of that body is already existing in another time zone because each material body is a permanent fixture of this material universe known as the Maha-tattva.

What I am trying to say here is all the 'dreams' of Maha Vishnu are all happening 'now' which means past, present and future exist simultaneously and we can move into any bodily vessel that exists in the past, present or the future.

The material energy is all one but NOT the life force that is individual units as Prabhupada has taught us.

This is important to understand as there are many impersonalists who believe there is one all pervasive life force that moves through all material bodily species.

Their ideas are wrong and these ideas has nothing to do with such impersonalism.

In the material creation everything already exists like a long roadway already exists.

Similarly the pathway or roadway of the material bodily vessels, gross or subtle, that we possess, like the roadway, is already carved out and we are simply passengers on that roadway in that bodily vessel container for its journey.

In other words, one who worships the rich and famous can take birth in the material body they worship after being trained up to be qualified to take that birth which in itself would take many, many, many births just for the opportunity to be famous for one insignificant life time.

What a ignorant selfish waste of time.

If those souls in those material vessels knew what they had to go through to attain that famous bodily materialistic existence, they would have second thoughts about seeking material fame and wealth on this planet or the heavenly planets.

Just like one can take the 'post' of Lord Brahma if they are qualified.

So could all materials vessels be 'posts like Brahmas?'

Yes I believe so.

Usually the most pious living entity in this material universe can take up the post of Lord Brahma when the next universe manifeasts.

In the same way; we all take a material bodily vessel according to our pious and impious activities or karma.

All individual living entities perceive time as a chain of events moving through past, present and future.

However, from above, like a journey on a road where one sees the beginning of one's journey to the end, could mean "materially" that all past, present and future exist together like every point on the journey of a roadway does.

Conclusion

The concept in the above essay is suggesting all material pathways repeatedly exist for others souls to also traverse.

What is said above in essay is all material bodily vessels or containers we are in are the property of Maha Vishnu.

In Maha Vishnu's dreams, every senerio conceivable is ALREADY existing past, present and future.

Maha Vishnu's dreams are similar to a "costume shop" full of many different costumes (realities) one can choose to enter.

Every soul who enters the material creation must go this so called costume shop (the dreams of the sleeping Maha Vishnu) and be offered a particular material body according to their desires for enter into the material creation.

Maha Vishnu owns all such material vessels that are part and parcel with everything else in the material creation He id dreaming.

Therefore, those who have chosen to enter the material creation, must go to Maha Vishnu's dreams and be given a material body from His dreaming the material creation.

It is these material bodies (from Maha Vishnu's dreams) all souls in other universes also must choose from just like one chooses costumes from a Fancy dress store.

Regarding eternal associates of Krishna like Arjuna.

The fact is Arjuna is with Krishna in innumerable different material universes at one time and there  is only one spirit soul who is Arjuna.

The spirit soul therefore of a surrendered soul to Krishna can expand himself into many different material bodies and be justvthe one soul.

Yes this is very true as sastra tells us.

The fact is the spirit soul in Arjuna's material body is the same Arjuna in all the different universes.

This is achieved because the one jivatma (Arjuna) expands himself into many different material bodily vessels or containers (bodies) that are all also him, "just one soul".

But this is NOT the case with every material bodily vessel in the material creation!

It is only some rare eternal associates of Krishna.

This is NOT the case with the different Lord Brahmas where each one in their universe universes is a "different jivatma" and not one jivatma.

So in every Lord Brahma there is a "different soul" every time a new material universe is created.

All Brahmas are NOT the same "one soul" There are millions of different souls who become a Brahma.

Srila Prabhupada in Melbourne in 1974 with Gauragopala dasa playing mridunga

Nitya siddha and nitya baddha explained fully

It is obvious that nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha must be further clarified

Nitya-siddha is when we are in our natural pure bodily state of reality, eternally liberated in Goloka, serving God or Krishna.

Nitya-baddha state is when we are in our unnatural impure state of transitory reality eternally conditioned in the mahat tattva, serving one's selfish interests, unaware of their permanently real nitya-siddha authentic self in Goloka.

One is originally nitya-siddha or fully Krishna conscious. It's NOT the nitya-siddha body that dreams of being in the material world or mahat-tattva, that is not possible because ‘nitya-siddha' means total Krishna consciousness just like ‘light’ means there is ‘no darkness’ or that darkness can be part of light – that also is not possible. Only in the absents of light can darkness exist.

One can choose to be either their nitya-siddha body or their nitya-baddha ‘sub-consciousness', both paradoxically have no connection to each other which means the nitya-baddha sub-consciousness is NOT part of the nitya-siddha body, as already clearly explained. The nitya siddha body is the full potential and is who the marginal living entity is perpetually within the eternal presence of Goloka-Vrindavana

So the question maybe asked, if one is as their nitya-siddha body how do they make the choice not to be that perfect nitya-siddha body?

The answer is straightforward -- the fact is we must understand that being perfect does not mean will loose our free will and ability to choose however, if we do not choose Krishna consciousness, then we instantaneously loose the ‘awareness' of being a nitya-siddha body, we therefore forget who we really are – instigated by choice.

It is that selfish choice alone that can make one forget their nitya-siddha body and become their nitya baddha secondary self that is only fit to exist in the mahat-tattva creation of Maha Vishnu

It must be emphasized that being nitya-siddha means being completely Krishna conscious, meaning there is NO sub conscious non Krishna conscious characteristic of our nitya-siddha body, just like in the presence of light there is no darkness, there is only Krishna consciousness, free will and the ability to choose to remain a nitya-siddha body in pure Bhakti or choose to ignore Krishna and His devotees that automatically causes one to forget their nitya-siddha body and enter the mahat-tattva or material creation as the nitya-baddha-jiva that is a real but temporary manifestation or development of the marginal living entity.

It is the mistaken choice and that choice alone that IS the separate ‘sub-conscious' condition of the marginal living entity called the baddha-jiva that paradoxically has nothing to do with nor is part of the nitya-siddha body that perpetually stands alone in pure Krishna consciousness, just like where there is light (nitya-siddha) there is no darkness (nitya-baddha).

Further more, even though we are now nitya-baddha (in darkness) we are actually still nitya-siddha (in the ‘light' of Krishna consciousness) because that is our eternal nature as marginal living entities, we just have to realize it.

Actually understanding we are all nitya-siddha is not easy to understand

Srila Prabhupada tells us what our ‘so called origins are'

"In the broader sense everyone comes from Krishna Loka. When one forgets Krishna he is conditioned (nitya-baddha), when one remembers Krishna he is liberated (nitya-siddha)". (Letter to Mukunda, June 10, 1969)

Srila Prabhupada - "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately Maya covers us. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going". (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972 Australia)

Srila Prabhupada - "There are two kinds of marginal living entities: nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. The actual constitutional position of every marginal living entity is nitya-siddha. By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can become again nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas AGAIN nitya-siddha" (New York Lecture on Caitanya-Caritamrta, July 13, 1976)

Srila Prabhupada - "By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can also become siddha. He can become again nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas again nitya-siddha, to bring them. It is a difficult task." (London lecture on Bhagavad-Gita 13-14, July 14, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada - "There are three kinds of liberated persons. They are called 1) sadhan siddha, 2) kripa siddha, and 3) nitya siddha. When one is actually on the siddha platform there is no such distinction as to who is sadhan, kripa, or nitya siddha. When one is siddha, there is no distinction what is what. Just like when the river water glides down to the Atlantic Ocean nobody can distinguish which portion was the Hudson River or some other river". (Letter to Mukunda, June 10, 1969)

Srila Prabhupada - "Nitya-baddhas are within this material world. Beginning from Brahma down to a small ant, insignificant ant, they are all nitya-baddha. Anyone who is in this material world they are nitya-baddha". (Lecture on Bhagavad-Gita 13-14, July 14, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually, every living entity is eternally uncontaminated, although he may be in the material touch. This is the version of the Vedas. Asanga ayam purusha-the living entity is uncontaminated. Just like when there is a drop of oil in water you can immediately distinguish the oil from the water, and the water never mixes with the oil. Similarly, a living entity, although in material contact, is always distinct from the matter". (Letter to Mukunda, June 10, 1969)

Actually because of the concept of ‘eternal presence' of Krishna Consciousness there is really no two states of consciousness (nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha), there is only one genuine condition of the marginal living entity, which is nitya-siddha.

Hare Krsna your fallen servant,Gauragopala dasa

Naradha Muni sets the example that the only way to remain conscious of one’s full identity, body, personality and individuality is to always be Krishna Conscious. In this way Krishna always protects him from illusion. See the story of Nardha Muni and the village girl below

How is it possible to fall down from Goloka-Vrndavana and Vaikuntha?

The following is a pastime (Lila) of the great sage Narada-Muni that took place while walking with Krishna outside the walls of Dwarka in Goloka-Vrndavana Krishna was about to teach Narada a valuable lesson about the powerful effects of choosing to become attached to something other than serving Krishna, thus putting oneself under the influence of Maya and Her external material energy that further provokes forgetfulness of Krishna and ones eternal nitya-siddha body they serve Krishna as.

Narada Muni, a great Devotee (marginal living entity) of Lord Krishna, was once walking outside the perimeter of Dwarka (one of Krishna’s great Palaces) with the Lord. As they walked,

Narada asked Krishna

“How is it one can forget such a beautiful place as Goloka-Vrndavana? ‘How could a devotee forget Krishna and end up in the temporary material world in an ethereal (heavenly) or biological (earthly) body?”

Narada looked at Krishna in total ecstasy and bliss wondering how anyone could leave such beauty? He was perplexed, as he new the material universe was full of souls (nitya-baddhas), who all were previously with Krishna in their only genuine eternal nitya-siddha form that is perpetually endowed with an imperishable identity, personality and individuality, who did exactly that – ‘sub-consciously’ forget Krishna along with their own authentic nitya-siddha bodily identity.

All marginal living entities are able to do this if they choose, turning their back on Him and manufacturing so many counterfeit vessels, identities, personalities and forms outside of Goloka-Vrndavana with their secondary nitya-baddha sub-conscious dream state within the temporary material universe.

How could this happen?

As they walked through the forest, a young girl caught Narada’s attention; she was struggling to carry two buckets of water near a well. Out of pity, Narada went over and offered his helping hand to the struggling girl; she gladly accepted his offer, as she was exhausted.

Gladly and compassionate Narada Muni carried the two buckets of water and proceeded to the girls’ destination at a nearby Village. On the way there, the simplicity and innocents of this beautiful young girl was so sweet and captivating that Narada was speechless in her association.

She broke the silence by explaining she was the daughter of the Village elder and her father was a great leader and devotee of Krishna. Narada, however was so captivated by the girl’s sweet voice, flowing long hair and colourful sari, he was not listening. He was totally dumbfounded in her presents.

When they arrived at the Village, the girl introduced her new friend to her father. He was very impressed by Narada’s qualities, and thought this man must be a great devotee of Lord Krishna.

He further thought ‘what a nice husband this young man would make for my daughter’

The Village elder felt obligated to reward Narada for his service.

All the Villagers gathered around thinking Narada must be a great Sage and suggested the best reward for him was the village elder’s daughter in marriage. Narada Muni was so attached and comfortable with the girl that he accepted the offering!

The wedding day arrived and everyone in the surrounding area came. The Village Brahmin’s (priests) performed the fire yajna (purification ceremony) and many gifts were given.

After the marriage Narada and his new wife settled in performing various duties. Narada eventually became the Head Master of the Gurukula (school). In due course his wife fell pregnant with their first child. A boy was born and the Village was ecstatic, celebrating late into the night.

As time went on, Narada’s happiness increased being with his family and living in the Village, he never had a worry in the world.

Over the years he was bestowed another six children. He enjoyed watching them grow, becoming educated and playing sporting games with them. All his children were adorned with beautiful qualities.

Ten years had passed, his father in-law, the Village elder, passed away suddenly due to illness; everyone was saddened and would only accept Narada as the new Village elder.

Many more years passed and he eventually gave permission to a young boy to marry his daughter. Everything was so perfect, so peaceful. Narada was totally satisfied with his wife, children, grandchildren and all the wonderful people in the Village.

Then one day an enormous storm came to the Village, pelting heavy rain with strong winds that destroyed houses. Narada decided he must immediately evacuate the Village, but it was too late, flooding had made it impossible to escape.

The storm became more intense, the water level was rising fast and raging torrents destroyed everything in its path. Narada frantically searched for his wife, children, grandchildren and friends,

He found himself trapped on a plank of wood in the raging torrents looking everywhere through the hail, wind and ragging water for his wife, but new she must have been washed away by the flood.

His son in law and daughter also found a plank of wood attempting to ride out the storm however, it only got worse and they eventually lost their footing and also perished. Then to Narada’s amazement he saw two of his young grand children high up in a tree holding on to dear life. Narada reached out to them screaming,

“Just hold on to me, give me your hand and I will save you!”

They reached out and at the same time a huge wave overpowered all of them, frantically Narada searched through the water screaming out for his grandchildren, but they also had perished. He continued calling out,

“Don’t leave me, just hold on somehow, don’t leave me!”

Then he also perished in the flood

At that exact moment, Narada felt a tap on the shoulder, he slowly opened his eyes still lamenting and wanting to be with his family. He found himself sitting against a well; again Narada yelled out in bewilderment,

“Where is my family?”

Then Narada realized the tap on the shoulder was from Krishna standing next to him. Krishna laughed and said,

“You wanted to know how powerful Maya (forgetfulness) was, so I showed you. You have been sitting against that well for no more than a moment!”

Coming to his senses, Narada says to Krishna,

“You mean all that experience, my wife, my children, my friends, my wealth, my fame, my followers, the Village, was a dream?”

Krishna replies,

“No, it is all real to you however everything outside My Kingdom is impermanent and like a dream was an illusion, your entire experience was a lesson to show you how easy it is for devotees in Goloka-Vrndavana, who are all eternally liberated, that is, until they foolishly choose not to be, as you have just done, by choosing to become captivated by Maya (forgetfulness and illusion) and fall to a temporary ‘dream state’ body of forgetfulness birth, disease, decay, old age short memory and death experiencing the impermanent nature that exists only within My material universe outside My Eternal abode of Goloka Vrndavana and Vaikuntha

.

In My Spiritual Universe of Goloka and Vaikuntha, there is no death or decay or even past or future, however as soon as you chose to forget Me and help the village girl, you were immediately transferred to My material universe and experienced the fleeting forgetful nature of the transitory universe, including death by drowning.

This is because you were attached to something other than loving devotional service to Me; (Krishna or God) you chose to turn your back on me just for a moment to help the young girl and became captivated by your own selfless desires to help her for your self, so much so you forgot Me standing right next to you! That moment seemed like a lifetime.

Genuine selflessness is doing everything for My pleaser and you, along with others, simply become inattentive and served the girl for your own pleasures.

Some, only less than 10% of My devotees experience this illusion like you have so I can teach them a valuable lesson however, others, also in that 10% who choose to turn their back on me and become attracted to the flicking beauty of Maya, can remain in the material universe forgetting their nitya-siddha true form, identify, personality and individuality for almost what appears to be an eternity, transmigrating through many millions of counterfeit bodies as their nitya-baddha secondary dream imaginary self in their search for so called happiness.

Enough is never enough in the material universe.

In the material world, this is like chasing after a mirage in the desert that only appears real, but in reality is only an illusion.

The impermanent universe is both real and an illusion because it is transitory. This is what temporary ethereal (heavenly or hellish) and biological (earthly) bodies in the material universe are like, they all end in disappointment because they fade away because everything one has accumulated and worked so hard to achieve is lost and ultimately forgotten – everything just fades with the passing of material time

.

Conditioned souls (nitya-baddhas) who are trapped in the material universe experience that ‘moment of being away from my Kingdom’ as billions upon billions of life times in billions of different bodies that seem like an eternity, so much so, many foolishly come to believe the Impersonal inactive effulgent Brahmajyoti, or bright light, which is the motionless effulgence of trillions of individual dormant inactive dreamless baddha jivas surrounding My body, is the starting and ending point of their existence. The Brahmajyoti is held together by My form, behind the ‘light’ one will find bodily nitya siddha forms surrounded by living paraphernalia which is also forms like building, roads, trees, flowers, clothing, animals, birds ect.

All of them in the material creation (My world has alwys been and was never created) have forgotten their real nitya-siddha form and relationship with Me in Goloka-Vrndavana

This is very difficult to understand without My favour because it is very complicated for you to understand the eternal stage on which all this illusion within the impermanent material universe is unfolding.

In actual fact, all of those baddha-jivas lost and trapped in the material creation, were once like you and remembered and was aware of their personal intimate relationship with Me in Goloka-Vrndavana, they still do have their perpetual nitya-siddha svarupa body, but have temporally forgotten it like one forgets their present body while dreaming. As in your case while sitting against the well and being captivated by absent-mindedness (The village girl) just for a moment.

In this way, dreaming the sub-consciousness of those who have chosen to leave My Personal abode and their real nitya-siddha form, identity, personality and individually have also become forgetful, leaving behind the memory and ‘awareness’ of their original form, just as you did Narada, in Goloka-Vrndavana. On leaving your true identity you then fabricate numerus counterfeit forms, identities and personalities like one does in a dream at night.

“So in this way, one transfers their conscious ‘awareness’ to the material universe as nitya-baddha, as your conscious ‘awareness’ had just experienced by turning your back on Me to pursue your own interests of being with the village girl”.

In actual fact there is no beginning or ending point of the marginal living entity or jiva, the Impersonal conclusion by some lost souls, which includes impersonalists, Buddhists and even many learned Vaishnavas and caste Gosvamis (My devotees) have miss-understood their eternal relationship with Me that is always there in Goloka-Vrndavana, even if they have forgotten.

Their silly idea that the soul originates from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is due to the long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long association they have had within many fleeting bodies within the temporary universe, being trapped within forgetfulness and sensual identity and association for so, so, so, so, so, long, that they have forgotten their original nitya-siddha form, identity, personality individuality and selfless devotional love in their eternal relationship with Me as you, Narada, have just done. Even a great devotee like you should never underestimate the power of My Maya (forgetfulness and illusion)”!

What is Maya? Maya: - forgetfulness, illusion, ‘that which is not’, a personality who controls the impermanent energy, i.e., the ethereal (heavenly and hellish) and biological (earthly container the soul manifests, as well as the mental delusions suffered by the forgetful jiva after leaving the Kingdom of God (As baddha-jiva).

Maya’s duty is to make sure no one disturbs Krishna by offering the aspiring devotees in their baddha-jiva sub-conscious state trapped in ethereal and biological vessels wealth, riches, beauty (female or male), and knowledge of the celestial technological heavenly realms and technologically earthly realm as a test to see what one really wants.

Human civilizations throughout the centuries have repeatedly attempted to build a permanent existence as well as prepare their present bodies with wealth and belongings to take with them into a heavenly ‘after-life’ where they believe they will live forever, why this is not possible in this temporary world will be fully explained in this book.

From the beginning of time, so many cultures have tried to prepare, with their inherent instinctual belief in an after life, to enter a Perpetual Kingdom of God. They unfortunately mistakenly come to believe that this transitory universe, with its heavenly rewards, is their real home (Explained later when explaining the heavenly planets within the interim creation in higher levels of the material universe existing in a non-biological sub-space dimension).

All things in the material world must pass

The attempt to achieve happiness, love and sensual pleasures in an impermanent atmosphere will, in due course, frustrate an intelligent human being because; in the end, all they have worked so hard to build up over their lifetime is all taken away at death.

Whatever material acquisitions built up over their lifetime also eventually wears out and erodes away to inert matter. Ultimately they loose everything anyway as forgetfulness, disease, old age and death over comes them.

The phenomenon of death, also known as ‘forgetfulness’, is an abnormal state the baddha-jiva or individual life force is overcome by while travelling in and identifying with the outward ethereal and biological human bodily garment or vehicle while contained in the temporary universe.

The attempt to build a perpetual blissful home on earth in a biological body, or in heaven in a non-biological ethereal body or covering is not possible because everything eventually breaks down and fades away in the impermanent material universe. In this way, all matter comes from the presents of life.

Even in the heavenly planets, that are rewards for Jains, Buddhists, Christians, Muslims, Jews and most branches of Hinduism, due to their performance of penance and austerity, exists only a temporary celestial manifestation within the boundaries of the material universe where one can live for thousands of years but also must pass on.

Only jivas who fall from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, having first originally previously first fallen from long, long, long before they mistakenly Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrndavana accepted the Impersonal Brahmajyoti as their origins, have to start their active existence from the beginnings of biological life.

Only after billions of life times, do they unfortunately make their way to the Impersonal Brahmajyoti. They do not know or remember how they were introduced or originally fell from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha to the temporary universe in the first place and foolishly believe the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is both the source of their existence and liberation.

Unfortunately the separation of the individual jiva from Krishna’s Personal abode has been so long, long, long, long periods of time they foolishly believe their origins are the Impersonal Brahmajyoti.

These baddha-jivas, who think they have originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, first manifest an ethereal body or vessel that stays with them for as long as they exist in the impermanent universe. From that ethereal body all other insubstantial and biological forms are projected.

Coming from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti means these embodied baddha-jivas have to start their active existence from the most basic form of life first attained after leaving that effulgent light. From there the now embodied baddha-jiva has to go through the billions of biological bodies mapped out by evolution (8,400,000,000 species of life) until the human body is again attained. It must be made clear this extremely lengthy process is only for the baddha-jivas who have previously, in an earlier mahat-tattva creation, merged there identity, individuality, personality and form into a minute spark of individual living light vibrating with other nitya-baddhas and therefore have entered into or merged themselves (The baddha-jiva appears as an individual spark while merged in the impersonal Brahmajyoti) into and simultaneously as the brightness of the Impersonal Brahmajyoti.

In other words the baddha-jivas ARE the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

ALL souls (baddha-jivas) eventually fall from this ‘impersonal Brahmajyoti’ due to their inherent nature to ‘always’ be active and have to start off at the very basis of biological life when they again re-emerge from their Impersonal slumber.

For some mystic yogis, jnans and advanced philosophers, this is not the case as due to their ability to choose where to take birth. Impersonalism is a very dangerous philosophy to follow and is often referred to by devotees of Krishna as Spiritual suicide.

The Impersonal effulgence or Brahman is where unlimited other ‘inactive dreamless baddha-jivas’ exist and vibrate impersonally dormant as individual living sparks that shine as individual atoms of light that collectively make up what is known as the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman

All of them who enter the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, except for some rare Impersonalist yogis, have to start at scratch (entering the body of a microbe) when they eventually inherently desire activity and fall out of that Impersonal sense of oneness.

Followers of Lord Buddha and the Jains practice sever penance and austerities attempting to free themselves from karma. Their austerity however, has the side effect of accumulating pious karma that allows them entry into the heavenly planets.

These higher dimensional supernatural worlds, known as the heavenly planets, exist in sub-space which are a insubstantial manifestation of the temporary material energy where the ethereal non-biological body, that is temporary but not material (lifeless energy), contains the eternal baddha jiva or soul and resides separate encased in the ethereal living body apart from that lifeless sub-space-matter that the sub-space heavenly and hellish planets are made of. In this book it should be made clear the words material and matter is lifeless substance or energy.

In other words we do not live in a material body but rather we live in an ethereal body that further creates a biological covering. Matter and material refers to the lifeless by products left over by the embodied jivas once they vacate the biological body.

All matter comes from life

Both the baddha-jivas ethereal bodies or containments and the surrounding sub-space lifeless material energy are not generally perceived by the embodied ‘baddha-jivas projected biological containments’ that the ethereal body eventually manifests as a further extension of the ethereal body.

The biological restraint or body covers the ethereal body and resides in a dimension like our earthly planet that is called secular space that is far more gross and solid than sub-space matter however, both realities are material where as the ethereal body and its extended biological body are not material.

The ethereal body in material sub-space is also called the supernatural-realm; where as the biological containment in secular-space is called the natural-realm. Both the natural and the supernatural are not spiritual; they are different dimensions within the material realm.

Reincarnation Explained

How this works is quite fascinating. To start with we are NOT the biological material body we are in, we are not that vessel we presently occupy therefore we must start understanding the biological vessel we are in is not who we really are.

Furthermore, we are not even the subtle ethereal ghostly (also) material body that possesses the outer material biological body.

In this material world we are a conscious projection called the baddha-jiva-soul. The origin of life or consciousness is from our genuine factual perpetual nitya-siddha body in Vaikuntha (Spiritual perpetual Worlds) that is beyond all the temporary material worlds of the gross biological and the subtle ethereal material containments, which are both different dimensions of the material universes that imprison the jiva-baddha-soul.

How one transmigrates from one biological body to another happens beyond the concept of time or past, present and future. At death one can enter a material biological body from the ‘past’ or in the ‘present’ or even in the ‘future’ because the subtle material body is not governed by the Physics and Quantum Mechanics of the biological material world, at death of the biological body we all become time travelers.

Also the idea of contacting family members who have died is just another illusion because the subtle material body that houses the baddha-jiva soul, was never any biological body to begin with.

Confused subtle bodies known as ghosts who still believe they are their previous biological body, suffer greatly because they cannot give up the idea they are NOT that biological body they previously occupied.

In actual fact one cannot see or prove the existence of ghosts by biological means or through biological enhancements such as gross material technology and science.

Officially ghosts are ‘subtle ethereal material vessels’ that encage the baddha-jiva-soul. This subtle world where ethereal bodies are found without a biological body are all around us in both heavenly, hellish and the millions of worlds in-between, we cannot perceive them because we are further encaged and conditioned to believe we are the gross biological body that blocks us from seeing the material universe in its fullness.

The fact is all material bodies both subtle and gross are ornaments that belong to the material universe and constantly exist through all time and space. In other words past, present and future all co-exist together therefore ALL material vessels are constantly being re-occupied by different baddha-jiva-souls that covers ALL dimensions of time.

Also the material subtle body can move from the present to the past, or even to the future because all material gross biological bodies are a potential host for the subtle material body.

This means our present biological bodily vessel can be occupied by different subtle bodies and experiencing its journey from birth to youth, middle, old age and its death.

In other words we can experience the material body of the famous and infamous depending on desire and karma.

Its not that we become them we rather enter that biological body and also get caught up thinking we are that material body.

No baddha-jiva owns any material body they occupy, it’s not me and it’s not you, all material bodies belong to the material universe and are the property of Maha-Vishnu that we simply take lone of.

Foolishly we all think we are the material body we possess but many others have also experience that same material body we are now presently in and also were convinced it was THEIR material body exclusively.

To think in such a way of ownership is an illusion because we are not these material bodies.(99) Gauragopala Dasa

Nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha are both the make-up of EVERY marginal living entity.

Nitya siddha and nitya baddha are NOT separate individuals as some preach. Nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha are both the make-up of EVERY marginal living entity.

Nitya-siddha is ones original condition, when they choose to miss use their free will and reject their own nitya-siddha body in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrndavana only then does their 'conscious awareness' becomes nitya-baddha in the material creation Srila Prabhupada confirms this

Srila Prabhupada - "By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can also become siddha. He can become again nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas again nitya-siddha, to bring them. It is a difficult task." (London lecture BG, Ch 2, 13-14, July 14, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada - "Your next question, "Is a pure devotee "eternally liberated" and if so is he at any time a conditioned soul? We are "eternally conditioned," but as soon as we surrender to Krsna do we then become "eternally liberated? 

You are NOT eternally conditioned, you are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it "appears" that we are eternally conditioned. 

Because we cannot trace out the history or the date when we became conditioned, therefore it is technically called eternally conditioned. Otherwise the living entity is not actually conditioned. 

A living entity is always pure. But he is prone to be attracted by material enjoyment and as soon as he agrees to place himself in material enjoyment, he becomes conditioned, but that is not permanent. Therefore, a living entity is called on the marginal state, sometimes this side, sometimes that side. These are very intelligent questions. And I am very glad that you are putting such intelligent questions and trying to understand it. It is very good." (Letter to Aniruddha dasa, Los Angeles 14 Nov 1968)

Understanding the teachings of Srila Prabhupada: Residents of Vaikuntha never fall down?

Understanding the teachings of Srila Prabhupada: Residents of Vaikuntha never fall down?

Understanding the teachings of Srila Prabhupada: Residents of Vaikuntha never fall down?

Understanding the teachings of Srila Prabhupada: Residents of Vaikuntha never fall down?

Gauragopala Dasa

Gauragopala Dasa

While active in the material creation or mahat-tattva, the marginal living entity is nitya-baddha

While active in the material creation or mahat-tattva, the marginal living entity is nitya-baddha.

The nitya-baddha sub-conscious 'inactive' condition, or dormant state of the marginal living entity, is reached after the dissolution of the mahat-tattva by not being qualified to go back to being ‘aware’ of ones nitya-siddha perpetual body within the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka.

It is also reached by mystic yogis, those who believe 'it's all one' and Buddhists who do not believe in God
Therefore no one originates from the Vraja River, Maha-Vishnu’s Body or the Impersonal Brahmajyoti.

The Vraja River and the Impersonal Brahmajyoti are a state of consciousness the dreamless nitya-baddha secondary consciousness experiences after becoming fed-up with the material Worlds or by being put into that state at the end of a mahat-tattva creation.

Our ‘dormant’ dream state, which is a further aspect of the nitya-baddha consciousness, only manifests when in the material creation and 'unaware' of our ever-youthful nitya-siddha perpetual body.

The Truth about the Moon landings

Only through pious activity can one enter the lush moon planet however, it's very difficult to get people to believe all the moon landings from 1969 to 1972 were fake. As far as the information I have collected, they did go there but did NOT enter the heavenly realm that exists there.

As time goes on there is just too much evidence to prove they did go instead of 'sentimentally' claim they never did. My visit to the Radio telescope at Parks NSW and personally be allowed to shoot a laser beam to 'reflectors' on the moon is more than enough proof for me.

The mysterious origin of the soul

THE SECRET VEDIC BOOK OF ORIGINS REVEALED PART 2

Quantum physics or the science of possibilities explained on the highest level. The mysterious origin of the soul is now within our grasp of understanding. By Gauragopala dasa ACBSP 2006

To say we DID NOT come from Vaikuntha is to say we came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or 'a clear sheet of consciousness' and Srila Prabhupada rejected that idea.

He has explained that this condition in the impersonal Brahmajyoti is already a fallen state, Srila Prabhupada further explains that originally we ALL have come down from Vaikuntha to the material creation many millions of years ago.

And then, out of frustration of trying to enjoy this temporary material existence, some of us have devolved even further to eventually fall into deeper illusion, with great difficulty, to that dormant motionless inactive conscious state known collectively as the impersonal Brahmajyoti (collectively because of all the billions of baddha-jivas vibrating dormantly there together)

It is these souls (baddha-jivas) who foolishly think this impersonal Brahmajyoti is our origin, having forgotten their real perpetual nitya-siddha body in Goloka that exists outside the limited realms of the material creation (mahat-tattva) and the impersonal Brahmajyoti or effulgence.

And it must be further added that, like the material creation, is also a temporary condition of the numerous baddha-jivas who idiotically strive to take shelter within the collective impersonal Brahmajyoti, which is spiritual suicide to a devotee of Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada - "There are two kinds of marginal living entities: nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. The actual constitutional position of every marginal living entity is nitya-siddha. By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can become again nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas AGAIN nitya-siddha" New York lecture on Caitanya-Caritamrta, July 13, 1976

Srila Prabhupada – “Eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha)? We cannot be eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha), because we are part and parcel of Krishna. Our natural position is ever liberated, eternally liberated (nitya-siddha). (Bhagavad Gita as it is lecture, Mayapur, June 20, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada – “Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities.

Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence.

But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

Srila Prabhupada - “A living entity misuses his little independence when he wants to lord it over material nature. This misuse of independence, which is called Maya, is always available. Otherwise, there would not be independence. Independence implies that one can use it properly or improperly." Srimad Bhagavatam 3.31.15

Srila Prabhupada - "Pure love for Krsna is eternally established in the hearts of living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, the living entity naturally awakens." (CC. M. 22.107)

Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

Now some have said, ‘Sometimes "Vaikuntha" means the impersonal Brahmajyoti characteristic of the spiritual sky, NOT necessarily "Vaikuntha-Loka." No that is not correct as the following explains -

Srila Prabhupada – "Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport (Letter 1972 to devotee in Australia (To Madhudvisa Swami)

Srila Prabhupada explains we have marginal independence as part of our nature. We can misuse such independence with out any material cause, it simply happens because it is there in our own fundamental spiritual nature as independent (marginal) living beings.

That choice is always there even in Goloka and must be there if genuine love is to exist. It is not that we first have to be contacted by the modes of material nature to fall down from Goloka or Vaikuntha.

It’s all to do with a combination of choice and the sheer smallness of the marginal living entity. An even then due to that smallness and choice, we only ‘think, imagine or dream’ we are fallen that we become fallen.

The following quotes overwhelmingly reveal that Srila Prabhupada has said we have come down from Vaikuntha however, most never again choose to make that foolish mistake, although on the other hand there is always the chance, due to free-will and the God (Krishna) given ability to choose, we can fall down and without that choice there can be no selfless love.

Srila Prabhupada - "After all, the living entity falls down from the spiritual world. There is possibility even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world." Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on July 4, 1974

Many do not understand the true facts of how we actually did come down from Goloka. And it's got nothing to do with sleeping on a bed in Goloka, as some foolishly believe. Their presentation of the ‘sleeping on a bed in Goloka’ philosophy and how the jiva falls from Goloka is absolute nonsense!!

The understanding of the word dream in regards to the marginal living entity falling from Goloka has nothing to do with sleeping anywhere; it’s all to do with time.

The proper understanding is this. It's all to do with the 'eternal presence' of the imperishable Vaikuntha's and Goloka compared to the 'past, present and future' of the perishable material creation of Maha-Vishnu.

The marginal living entity, due to free will and choice, falls out of synch with the 'eternal presence' of Goloka or Vaikuntha simply caused by their non-Krishna conscious mistaken desires.

Such selfish desires place the marginal living entity outside of Goloka as their nitya-baddha lower self that enters the mahat-tattva (material creation).

Now it is important to understand that while they are in the mahat-tattva, no time passes in Goloka-Vrndavana because of the 'eternal presence' of Krsna Consciousness there

.

In other words when the marginal living entity re-establishes again the memory of their nitya-siddha Krsna Conscious bodily identity in Goloka, it will appear as if NO time has passed whatsoever when once again the marginal living entity is in the shelter AS their nitya-siddha body within the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka-Vrndavana.

Dr. John Mize – “The question that bothers me in part is then why would the soul... Because I understand your conception that the soul is part of the spiritual sky originally or part of God, and it somehow falls out of this blissful condition due to pride, much like the Christian thesis that the devil fell out of heaven due to pride. And it seems puzzling why the soul would be so silly, so foolish, so insane, as to do such a thing”.

Srila Prabhupada – “That is his independence”.

Dr. John Mize – “Independence”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Instead of using independence properly, when he misuses independence he falls”.

Dr. John Mize – “I’m sorry, he what?”

Srila Prabhupada – “He falls down”.

Dr. John Mize – “He falls”.

Srila Prabhupada – “He falls down on account of his independence. Just like you have got independence. You are sitting here. You can go immediately. You may not like to hear me”.

Dr. John Mize – “I wouldn’t what?”

Srila Prabhupada – “You may not like to hear me”.

Dr. John Mize – “Yes”.

Srila Prabhupada – “That independence you have got. I have got also. I may not talk with you. So that independence is always there. Similarly, as part and parcel of God, the, it is the duty of the soul to be always engaged in the service of the Lord”.

Dr. John Mize – “Always engaged in...?”

Srila Prabhupada – “In the service of the Lord”.

Dr. John Mize – “Service of the Lord”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. Whatever I am ordering, it is immediately carrying out. I say, “Make it like this.” He will, it will do. So... But this is dead matter. It is acting mechanically. The brain directs immediately the finger and it acts, like machine. This whole body is just like a machine, but soul is not machine mechanical part. It is spiritual part.

So therefore, as I am directing the finger, as being machine, it is working, but if somebody else, a friend or servant, I may direct him to do something, he may not do it. So when the soul misuses the independence, then he falls down. That is material life.

Material life means misusing the independence of soul. Just like a son. A son’s duty is to obey the father. But he may not obey. That is his madness. So when the soul, misusing the independence, becomes mad, he is sent in this material world”.

Dr. John Mize – “It is puzzling to me that one would be so foolish”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Because by independence you can become foolish. Otherwise, there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do whatever you like. That is stated in the Bhagavad-Gita, that yathecchasi tathä kuru. Find out this verse in the Eighteenth Chapter.

That independence is there. After instructing the whole Bhagavad-Gita to Arjuna, Krishna gave him the independence, “Now whatever you like, you can do.”

Krishna never forced him to accept the teachings of Bhagavad-Gita. He gave him the independence, “Now whatever you like, you can do.” And he agreed. “Yes. Now my illusion is over, I shall act as You say.” The same independence. Yes”.

Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?”

Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are... Majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”.

Dr. John Mize – “So we’re among the 10%.

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. Or less than that. In the material, whole material world all the living entities they are... Just like in the prison house, there is some population, but they are not majority. The majority of the population, they are outside the prison house. Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the spiritual world. Only a few fall down”.

Dr. John Mize – “Does Krishna know ahead of time that a soul is going to be foolish and fall?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Krishna? Yes, Krishna may know because He is omniscient”.

Dr. John Mize – “Are more souls falling all the time?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Not all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence... Everyone is not liking to misuse the independence. The same example:

Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal. So their shelter must be also constructed. It is very easy to understand. Not that cent percent population will be criminal, but government knows that some of them will be.

Otherwise why they construct prison house also? One may say, “Where is the criminal? You are constructing...” Government knows, there will be criminal. So if the ordinary government can know, why God cannot know? Because there is tendency”.

 Dr. John Mize – “The origin of that tendency (to fall from Goloka) is...?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes”.

Dr. John Mize – “From where does that tendency come?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krishna says, yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.” (Bhagavad Gita as it is. lecture, Mayapur, June 20, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada – “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport” Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia (To Madhudvisa Swami)

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually, you are not conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha Krsna Bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Devotee – “Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back”.

 Srila Prabhupada – “No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, "Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man," I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become. . . .”

Bhaktijana – “Has my soul ever been liberated?”

Srila Prabhupada – “That you know. I do not know”.

Bhaktijana – “If I was once liberated...”

Srila Prabhupada – “You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this Maya. This is called Maya”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972

It is important to understand that ALL marginal living entities ‘originally’ come from Goloka-Vrndavana and are ALWAYS in a perpetual state of uniqueness’ meaning we are forever fresh and youthful in our nitya-siddha body.

Such a spiritual body is ‘eternally’ endowed with a two-armed form like Krishna’s but can also appear as a four armed form in the Vaikunthas in the mood of servitude, or further appear as a flower, drop of rain, chair, etc regardless, the original form of the soul is two armed just like Krishna’s.

What makes things confusing to several is that some marginal living entities, who have manifested as their inferior secondary baddha-jiva state in the material creation, can stay in the material creation or mahat-tattva for what seems to be an almost eternity!

This means many baddha-jiva souls enter the Body of Maha-Vishnu or the impersonal Brahmajyoti at the dissolution of each mahat-tattva creation because of not being Krishna Conscious to awaken to their true nitya-siddha body in Goloka.

In other words, this entrance into the dormant impersonal Brahmajyoti condition only happens if they are not qualified to again remember their ‘full potential awareness’ of being a nitya-siddha perpetual Krishna Conscious body in Goloka.

In this way, the baddha-jiva sub-conscious state starts off as a non-Krishna conscious selfishly active dream (or thought) condition originating from the marginal living entity in Goloka.

Therefore it is only the secondary or inferior baddha-jiva that is a formless state of consciousness that is sometimes referred to as particles of spirit, spiritual atoms, sparks or molecules (All referring to the baddha-jiva and NOT the nitya-siddha body due to always being a Krishna Conscious bodily form).

This baddha-jiva condition can only experience selfish desires through material bodily vessel provided by Maha-Vishnu from within His mahat-tattva creation that clothes the secondary baddha-jiva state with subtle (ethereal) and gross (biological) material containers or bodily vessels of the mahat-tattva.

There are others also that a resemble fire and extreme cold. Sarva gatah - life is everywhere in the mahat-tattva and most, over 95%, we cannot see with our biological eyes and our scientific technological extensions like the Electron Microscope and the Humble Telescope.

Some have said that "falling down from Vaikuntha" means NOT necessarily "Vaikuntha-Loka planets of eternal loving service." Srila Prabhupada rejects that nonsense claim to his teachings and explains clearly we have foolishly come from Krishna’s Pastimes - (Lecture August 6, 1973) and further defeats this nonsense speculation by undoubtedly telling us –

Srila Prabhupada – "Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila and sport" (Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia (To Madhudvisa Swami)

Srila Prabhupada - "We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago."

Srila Prabhupada clearly teaches us - These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities". Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970  which he means, "Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila" (Letter 1972 to Madhudvisa Swami)

Srila Prabhupada tells us we have come down from Vaikuntha-loka, actually Goloka-Vrndavana some millions of years ago and have not originated from this Prapanchika Vaikuntha.

We may have been to Prapanchika Vaikuntha but long, long, long before that we were with Krsna in His Vaikuntha-loka and Goloka-Vrndavana

To say we the marginal living entities came from 'a clear sheet of consciousness that is expanding and growing with new jivas, ' or from the impersonal dormant characteristic of the Brahmajyoti, is worse than the teachings of Mayavadi philosophy!

On many occasions Srila Prabhupada further elaborates on his wonderful purports in the association of his close disciples. I remember in Sydney he called devotees in to his room and preached to midnight, being the guard at the door, I heard these wonderful conversations. The main point to understand is that there is no difference between Prabhupada's books, lectures, morning walks and personal instructions, in fact why would there be? 

Srila Prabhupada - "We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada - These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha". Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970 Srila Prabhupada further explains this clearly -

Srila Prabhupada – "Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila" (Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia (To Madhudvisa Swami)

And this -

"Due to the mundane association and the deliberations of mundane sensual objects, the jiva-soul has forgotten the real forms of the self, the bliss, divinity and that of Vaikuntha. As a result of which, the jivas are put into a delusion of imagining sense-pleasures and heavenly pleasures as the bliss.

They are also at delusion regarding their conception about the Supreme Lord and His Abode. They mistake the Vaikuntha as to be something like the mundane regions and also they misconstrue the Divine Body with the perishable bodies of the physical world thereby they mistake some or other abodes constituted by the earth, water, or any other similarly imagined abode as the Vaikuntha." Sri Tattva-Sutram on page 137 

And this -

When the marginal living entity first chooses to pursue their own self-centred desires and thus forgets his relationship with Krishna, he is immediately overwhelmed by the influence of Maya, in other words, one first chooses to ignore Krishna that simultaneously puts them in the realm of Maya or within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

Srila Prabhupada is very clear. Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krsna in the spiritual world (As nitya-siddha). But when we want to take Krsna’s position, Krsna puts us into a dreaming state (As nitya-baddha).

In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and are thus free to act out our desire to become the supreme enjoyer. This state of forgetfulness and dreaming is sometimes characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world.

But Srila Prabhupada explains that in reality we are not fallen. We are simply in a dreaming state. Srila Prabhupada says that this is a very important point and asks the devotees to carefully consider it.

This concept that we are not really fallen offers an explanation for the statements that “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” We do not fall. We simply forget our original relationship of service to Krsna. Some might argue that we have eternally forgotten Krsna. But that is not supported by Srila Prabhupada

And this -

"Service of Sri Krsna is the eternal nature of a Jiva. When he forgets this relationship he is overwhelmed by the influence of Maya—the deluding potency lying at the back-ground of the Lord.

Thenceforward a Jiva shows his backwardness in the service of the Supreme Lord Sri Krsna. Since the backward condition of a Jiva springs up along with his coming into this mayaik world, the history of his downfall within the bounds of time and space is out of the question.

Hence the significance of the expression ‘eternally backward.' His eternal function with the service of Sri Krsna has been perverted since his entrance into the plane of three dimensions due to his forgetfulness." (Jaiva Dharma, p. 10)

Srila Prabhupada – "This is factual evidence showing that it is possible at any time to fall down from the Lord's association. . . Once fallen and separated from the Supreme Personality of Godhead's association, one becomes a candidate for suffering in the material world." Cc. Madhya-lila 10.65, purport

Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna album

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur - “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul’s original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel” Los Angeles, June 23, 1975

Trivikrama asks Srila Prabhupada – “You were just saying that we are not fallen. Actually this is an illusion thinking that we are fallen. Yet I read ...

Srila Prabhupada: “The same example. In dream I am not attacked by the tiger, but I am ...thinking, “Oh, tiger is there - It is simply dreaming condition”.

Trivikrama: But so many Vaishnavas are praying...

Srila Prabhupada – “So as soon as you understand that “This is not... I am not in contact with tiger, it is all a dream,” then you are delivered. Similarly, as soon as you understand “All this material condition of life we are simply dreaming; I am actually servant of Krsna,” then you are liberated. That is Krsna conscious. If you keep in Krsna consciousness, that “I am eternal servant of Krsna,” then you are liberated. . . .

Trivikrama: This feeling that we have, that we are fallen, that we are very fallen...

Srila Prabhupada - “That is also illusion. That is also illusion. You are fallen means you have got some certain desires except service of Krsna. Therefore the conclusion is that if you keep yourself tightly in Krsna’s service, there is no question of falling down or there is no question of Maya. You see?” Los Angeles, June 23, 1975

In this lecture Srila Prabhupada is very clear. Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krsna in the spiritual world (As nitya-siddha). But when we want to take Krsna’s position, we put ourselves into a dreaming state (As nitya-baddha) that can only exist in the mahat-tattva, the impersonal Brahmajyoti or the Body of Maha-Vishnu.

In this dreaming nitya-baddha condition we forget our actual position and are thus free to act out our desire to become the supreme enjoyer.

This state of forgetfulness and dreaming is characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world. But Srila Prabhupada explains that in reality we are not fallen. We are simply in a dreaming nitya-baddha state.

Srila Prabhupada says that this is a very important point and asks the devotees to carefully think about it.

This concept that we are not really fallen offers an explanation for the statements that “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” We do not fall. We simply forget our original nitya-siddha relationship of service to Krsna. Some might argue that we have eternally forgotten Krsna. But that is not supported by Srila Prabhupada’s purports