Srila Prabhupada - ''Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness''.
The following Conversation took place in Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974 between Srila Prabhupada and his disciples.
Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krishna, we have a perfect relationship with Krishna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we’re already serving Krishna?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.”
Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…”
Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire.
Devotee – “In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. You forced Krishna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, “My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there.” But he insists, “Oh, I must go. I must go.” “All right, you go at your risk. That’s all. And you suffer. What can be done?” Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, almighty—therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence. If you persist that “I must go and enjoy independently,” so God says, “All right, you can go.” This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy”. End
Question - Is there a place in the Spiritual World from where we can never fall down from?
Answer - It is not based on a "place you can never fall down from" that will keep you in Vaikuntha, it does not work that way because it is based on ‘’your choice’’ and nothing else. If you were forced to stay there then how can there be love?
Remaining in Vaikuntha "eternally" is based on the conscious awareness of what the devotee wants as a unique selfless individual "loving" personal servant of the Lord.
Even in such selfless emotions of loving devotion, the jivatma NEVER looses that unique ability of free will and self expression where one is "personally" always aware they are choosing how to selflessly serve Krishna or the servants of the servants of Krishna.
The fact that one does not fall from Gods personal Kingdom is your responsibility, not Gods, it is your choice, it is your free will to choose and nobody else including Krishna.
The fact is 90% of all living entities do not fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana because they "choose not to".
That "choice" is always with the marginal living entities or jiva.
How is this so?
The jivatma soul or marginal living entity has 78% of Krishna's quantities which puts them in the realm of having "a sense of independence, identity, personality, individuality and the ability to choose.
This means the jivatma has the ability to agree or not agree even with Krishna.
The sense of individuality allows the jivatma the right to choose Krishna or choose to be separate from Krishna.
Remember Maya and her personification of material innate energy, does not exist in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana so "material energy" is unknown to the jivatma's active in pastimes in the Spiritual Worlds.
However, "free will, individuality, having independence, experiencing a unique sense of individual self worth and the ability to express all there unique qualities DOES exist in the make up of the jivatma within both Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.
And if all those abilities are taken away by being in the Spiritual Worlds, then we loose the ability to "give and accept love", we become no better than a stone or mindless emotionless robot.
Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, almighty—therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence”. Conversation in Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974 between Srila Prabhupada and his disciples.
Vishnu or Krishna can NEVER force thebbliving entity to stay in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana, that "choice" must ALWAYS be the individual jivatma's decision and sadly some, less than 10% in all the Spiritual Worlds, do choose to leave and therefore enter the material creation.
For REAL love or selfless devotion to truly exist, the jiva-tattva (jivatma) MUST have the choice to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana at anytime if they choose to do so.
It is not correct, even if some great Vaishnava Sages and past Acharys say that once a jivas are in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana, they can NEVER fall down from Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana, NO, that is incorrect, the fact is they CAN fall down again and again if they choose according to many great devotees including Srila Prabhupada.
So to claim once a jivatma (who has 78% of Krishna's qualities) in the Spiritual Worlds can NEVER ever fall down, is incorrect, they can and do fall down.
And the fact is jivatma's do fall down, regardless of how some have interpreted past Sages, Vaishnavas and Acharyas.
So lets be clear, to say those who are in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana will "never ever fall down" IS actually true, for those who "choose NOT to fall down"
But if the jivatma wants to leave they certainly can and the Lord will not interfere. If He did, then genuine love based on the "individual personal expressions" of the independant jivatma, can NEVER exist.
To make a blanket comment that "No one can ever fall and leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana, does NOT take into consideration the free will of the jivatma.
The fact is, all those comments from past Sages, Vaishnava's and past Acharyas may have been said for many reasons based on increasing the faith of young followers.
To possibly instill faith among aspiring devotees and neophytes so they CAN understand that their constitutional position IS to NEVER fall down, to never ‘’choose’’ to leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana, and NEVER again ‘’desire’’ to enter the material world once they have again returned to Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.
Acyutananda – “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns. He can return?”
Srila Prabhupada – “If he likes he can return”.
Guru-kripa – “How is it that one can become envious of Krishna?”
Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976)
For those who believe past Acharyas and Sages who claim a soul in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana will never fall down, are really just instilling faith in their followers because genuinely very few fall down anyway (less than 10%)
Therefore those immature devotees, including many sanyasis, who believe these comments from past Sages and Archary's that all souls in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana can NEVER fall down, have not understood Sastra.
The fact is, there will always be some (only a small number) who will choose to leave serving "Narayana in Vaikuntha" and being Krishna's close and dear friend in Goloka Vrindavana as found in the 4th Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam .
And yes, many devotees have misunderstood the true meaning of Sastra here and just call it inconceivable than attempting to understand it.
Understand what?
That making "choices" (that allows one to increase their “unique” individual expression of love for Krishna) is always with the marginal living entity even in Vaikuntha and to take that ability away from the marginal living entity in Vaikuntha, the jivatma looses the individual ability to “give and accept love”,
Because without free will, we loose our sense of independence as an individual person who has a unique separate identity from all of other individuals including Siva-tattvas, Vishnu tattvas, higher Sakti-tattva residents, and Krishna Himself.
These are important points to understand, the jiva tattvas are NOT all one, for example, I am an individual thinking living entity (jiva tattva) with a seperate personality and identity from Krishna's personal qualities.
We, the jivatma souls, are independent thinking souls eternally but simultaneously part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna the cause of all causes.
We are meant to please the Lord as the unique “individual person we eternally are, each jiva tattva with our own God given abilities and talents.
Therefore, no one can force the jivatma to stay in Vaikuntha, that choice MUST ALWAYS be eternally the choice of the jivatma.
The Shakti-Vishnu-tattvas are different tha the jiva-tattvas, they are higher expansions of Krishna whose Personality has greater control because they all ARE Krishna playing a different role in His own pastimes.
Only "Vishnu tattvas" and "Shakti Vishnu tattvas" never fall down from Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana because they ARE the direct expansions of Krishna playing different rolls in Krishna's own pastimes, they all have 93% of Krishna’s qualities making them more direct expansions (Krishna is more in control of such living entities) or Krishna playing another role.
For the jiva-tattva expansion of Krishna (78%), Krishna is less in control of such a the living entity even though also an expansion.
This leaves the unique jiva tattva feeling more like an independent living being with their own sense of self, individuality and having one's own unique character and personality.
We are all expansions of Krishna and therefore called Shakti-tattva
But there are different categories and levels of Shakti tattvas, many have Krishna dominating their personality (Shakti-Vishnu-Tattvas 93% of Krishna's qualities) making them Krishna's direct expansion expressing a particular mood.
While other Shakti-tattvas live jiva-tattvas (78% of Krishna's qualities) have less of Krishna dominating their existence.
In the situation of jiva-tattva, these Shakti-tattva living entities have always had their own individual personality, sense of identity and character that Krishna neither dominates, interferes with or forces His will on that they MUST love or serve Him, no, for these Shakti-tattvas Krishna allow THEM to choose, He allows free will and the ability to choose (jiva-tattva 78% of Krishna's qualities)
Lord Krishna even becomes merged as one with Srimati Radharani to experience Her love.
That "merged Personality" which is the combination of "Radha and Krishna" is "Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu"
Some Shakti Vishnu tattvas are also gopis including Radharani (Radha is the personification of Shakti-tattva),
Others like gopas, parents, brothers namely Balarama, lovers etc and many, many other different personalities are Vishnu tattva or Shakti Vishnu tattva (93%) and are NOT jiva tattva (78%).
Although, other personalities in Goloka Vrindavana, including gopas, gopis, parents and friends, can be both Shakti Vishnu tattva (93%) or jiva tattva (78%) playing similar roles
It is ONLY these "Shakti Vishnu tattva" (93%) resident's of Vrindavana who NEVER fall down because they ARE Krishna Himself playing different roles in His own pastimes.
Also more than 90% of jivatma’s have “chosen” to stay in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana without ever falling down again.
Less than 10% foolishly "choose" to leave and therefore enter the material creation.
As explained, all jiva tattvas have 78% of Krishna’s qualities, they CAN leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana "if they choose".
But as emphasized most never leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.
The other categories are Lord Shiva who has 84% of Krishna's qualities but Shiva has many expansions also with 84%
By entering Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana does guarantee you will stay there forever and never again fall down and enter to the material world.
For most it does (90%), but not all.
It is a fact most NEVER enter the material creation again because that is their "choice" the way they express their individual free will, as simple as that.
Past Sages, Vaishnava and Acharyas say the jivatma can never fall down once they are in Vaikuntha. What they really mean is the jivas are "not suppose" to again leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana, and most never do.
However, Prabhupada has a small minority DO choose to leave or fall, but only less than 10% foolishly make that choice to leave putting them in the material creation.
For them the mahat-tattva (material creation) is created.
Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?”
Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”.”. Los Angeles, June 23, 1975
Lets clear one thing up, falling into the material world has absolutely nothing to do with maya or the material energy because maya does not and can not exist in Vaikuntha.
The jivatma’s do not even know Maya or the material energy exists, however, they do have "free will and the ability to choose" and are aware that this quality is “eternally” part and parcel of the jivatma’s makeup and exists in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.
We do not loose our independence and sense of individual identity once we enter Vaikuntha, we are eternally independent living entities but depend of Krishna Personally or His many Vishnu expansions who provide all facilities in the material creation.
In other words we are always independent living entities but always depend on Krishna just like the Sun rays cannot exist without the Sun.
The fact is because we can "choose to be with Krishna or reject Him", then there can be increasing endeavors of loving exchange due to “choice”.
This is one of the reasons why the material universe was created - to give "reality" to that choice of rejecting Krishna, so the living entity can go to another place outside Vaikuntha if they choose, to try and enjoy without being conscious of Krishna’s existence (that place where one can forget Krishna is called the material creation)
The marginal living entity or jivatma also must have the free will to choose Krishna instead of just being in Vaikuntha without no choice. The point made here is the position the jivatma chooses in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana must be voluntary.
Who you love and who you choose to serve MUST be voluntary otherwise real love will never exist.
Many cannot understand these facts about the importance of free will, individuality, identity and the sense of self worth of being a unique person who can give selfless ever increasing love or service in their own way to Krishna.
These qualities are based on the importance of the individuals ability to "choices"
Once again to be truly free there must be the choice of Vaikuntha or its so called opposite where Krishna can be forgotten, the "material creation"
Without the jivatma’s being able to choose Krishna or not there can never be love, Prabhupada has said to force love is called rape.
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could be come the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
It takes only free will to live separately from Krishna and this choice has nothing to do with maya or material energy as explained above - it is simple free will that allows us to be a independent person and enter the material creation too.
To do that one is given material bodies, a subtle and gross body that covers the spiritual form.
In the material world, the jivatma has to put up with the gross material body always being in a state of decay and then eventually being forced to take another gross material body.
Also once in the material creation, you're on you're own terms, you are responsible therefore karma begins as soon as you leave Vaikuntha. No jivatma souls originate from the dormant Brahmajyoti, they often fall to it but have not come from there as Srila Prabhupada tells us.
Letter to: Revatinandana — Los Angeles 13 June, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - ''The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness.
Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.
The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he is fallen down’’.
Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna Happening record album New York 1966
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.”. July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Srila Prabhupada - 'The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha, because God is eternal and His part and parcels, the living entities, they are also eternal. So that is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha, sädhana-siddha, krpa-siddha-there are different grades. They are all described in The Nectar of Devotion. So one can become sadhana-siddha. By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can also become siddha. He can become AGAIN nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas AGAIN nitya-siddha, to bring them. It is a difficult task' New York lecture on Caitanya-caritamrta, July 13, 1976
Srila Prabhupada - 'This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”. SB 4.29.83 Purport
Once an Indian political leader, Syamasundara Chakravarti, asked Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada,
“Why has the Lord granted such freedom to the jiva?”
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta told him,
“Ok you are fighting for freedom. Don’t you know the value of freedom? Devoid of freedom, the soul is only matter.” Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada said.
Compiled Gauragopala Dasa Acbsp (July 1972)
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