However what does ETERNALLY exit there in the Spiritual Worlds is ''free will'' and the ''ability to choose''.
Therefore one's fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana is due to "free will" and the "sheer smallness of the jivatma" and NOT maya. So there is absolutely no material cause for one's fall down from Goloka Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.
Devotee - "Srila Prabhupada, why did God give us free will if He knew we would fall down in the material world?"
Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will. But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone. That is not life". (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)
Srila Prabhupada - "By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can also become siddha. He can become AGAIN nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas AGAIN nitya-siddha" (New York lecture on Caitanya-caritamrta, July 13, 1976)
Srila Prabhupada - "The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha, because God is eternal and His part and parcels, the living entities, they are also eternal. So that is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha, sädhana-siddha, krpa-siddha-there are different grades. They are all described in The Nectar of Devotion. So one can become sadhana-siddha". (New York lecture on Caitanya-caritamrta, July 13, 1976)
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could be come the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? ”So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krishna, we have a perfect relationship with Krishna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we’re already serving Krishna?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.”
Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…”
Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom. It is his desire.
Devotee – “In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. You forced Krishna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, “My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there.” But he insists, “Oh, I must go. I must go.” “All right, you go at your risk. That’s all. And you suffer. What can be done?” Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, almighty—therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence. If you persist that “I must go and enjoy independently,” so God says, “All right, you can go.” This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy”.(Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974)
Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - "These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970
Even the leaves CAN fall from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana.
No past Acharays or great devotees would EVER maturely believe, when based on FULL knowledge -
"Once the jivatma is in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana the jiva soul will NEVER fall down to the material creation".
This promise above has been said in Shastra by Krishna and past Acharays but ONLY as a form of encouragement for neophytes to help them NOT fall down to the material world again.
Here is why it is NOT just up to Krishna -
Yes we all know in Sastra Krishna DOES promise one will NEVER fall from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana and he keeps His promise!
However, that promise is from Krishna's side, we must not forget the jivama must ALSO have THEIR choice too, and agree from their side also.
Ultimately in the end, it is the jiva's choice and NOT just Krishna's because he ONLY want servants who choose to serve Him.
Each individual jivatma (jiva tattva or soul) never looses their individuality of being a unique person made up by the following characteristics-
1 - "Personal abilities and talents" unique to each individual soul that gives one "a strong sense of self" that enables one to contribute independently "as a unique person" free from a nonsense "all one" mindless collective (impersonalism borge*) consciousness .
2 - Unique personal ability to express one's personality and character as a free thinker with the strong sense of "I am a complete individual independent person within myself"
This IS the jiva tattva's full description and potential as an individual person who is simultaneously an eternal surrendered servant (by choice) of Lord Krishna the Supreme Personality of Godhead and cause of ALL causes being His parts and parcels.
3 - One's own special unique ability to like or dislike, or choose this side or that side (to be with Krishna or not be with Krishna) thus expressing oneself as an independent individual person.
Without this quality of reciprocation, love and real service can never genuinely exist.
4 - The individual's right as a "person" to accept or reject, to provide ideas with personal imputs make us the unique individuals we all are, because we do not only accept love, but can each give so much love and service too in OUR unique personal wonderful way!
This is what "personalism" is all about!!
Being a person and having a strong sense of self.
This is why no past Acharays or great devotees would EVER say "once one is in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana they will never fall down".
This is because all jiva souls are individual independent beings, therefore Krishna CANNOT fully make that decision for them, which is they will NEVER fall from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana once there, because ONLY the jiva can make that decision.
This is because the jiva is NOT part of some mindless smiling impersonal blissful collective, or part of an "all one sharing consciousness group of drones that all think the sameway with their glazed impersonal eyes.
This version of Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana I reject and is really worse than hell for the jiva.
Losing one's independent individuality IS hell.
All individual jivas are NEVER forced to be Krishna's servant because the jivas also have a choice.
This also includes the "choice" to stay or leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana at anytime if the jiva chooses!
Krishna does promise one will NEVER fall from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana however, that promise is from Krishna's side and He keeps His promise!
However the jiva must ALSO agree on their side too because Love is reciprocal.
5 - Therefore, in simple language, those who claim one can NEVER fall down or leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana, are NOT understanding it is only less than 10% who choose to fall down or leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana anyway.
6 - The fact is, 90% of jivas choose to NEVER leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.
But if one really thinks about even that comment, yes, it is a fact that the other 90% of jivas will never fall "as long as they continue desire to serve Krishna and NEVER forget Him"
Which means ALL 100% of jivas ALWAYS have the choice to stay in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana or leave and enter the material creation if they want "perpetually!"
Again this free will is nessessary if there is genuine reciprocal love between Krishna and the jiva.
Many inexperienced devotees feel insecure hearing this and that THEY are ultimately responsible.
They therefore find it easier to follow the Gaudiya Math teachings or some other Sanga that also teaches them that once they reach Goloka Vrindavana or Vaikuntha, then they will NEVER again fall down to the material world.
Believing in this so called surrender to Krishna, takes away the fear of failure and all responsibility from the jiva because they believe Krishna completely takes over the jiva's individuality and destiny with Krishna in complete control over the individual jiva's choices and service.
This is THEIR version of surrender, to speculate how Krishna's "will" flows through them getting the jiva to do everything He wants them to do in a oneway relationship of so called surrender.
Their "so called surrender" believes Krishna completely takes over ALL responsibility of the jiva which is really obliterating one's individual unique personality and identity.
The fact is, this type of surrender where one renounces all responsibility for their identity, actions and personality in the name of "surrender prabhu" is actually impersonalism.
Real love is reciprocation, it is NEVER an impersonal one way street where surrender to Krishna takes away one's sense of self, individuality and RESPONSIBILITY.
"God helps those who helps themselves".
You always have a choice otherwise if Krishna does everything for you, how can there be genuine love?
The freedom to leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana MUST always be on the table (as a choice) because without it, there can NEVER be real love and service based on freewill.
Srila Prabhupada has said you can never force someone to love you, there must be LOVE based on reciprocation.
Srila Prabhupada - ”So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? ”So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” (July 8, 1976 in Washington D.C.) End Quote.
BORG* (From Star Trek The Next Generation TV fame 1987) A race of beings acting as individuals but with no sense of independent self or individuality, who act as an "all one" collective (also called Mayavadi philosophy.)
The promise Krishna makes, that one will never again fall down to the material creation once they have returned to the Spiritual World, is from Krishna's side, it is His promise.
ReplyDeleteDoes this mean the jiva can NEVER choose to leave Krishna again "even if they want to?"
This idea that once reaching Vaikuntha one never again falls down is true for most souls but not all, therefore those devotees who say that, no matter who they are, are wrong, souls DO fall from both Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.
And Prabhupada is the only one that puts the figure of those who choose to leave at less than 10%
Ultimately, love is not a one way street, it is based on reciprocation.
Therefore, we must NOT forget the jivatma's side too, the jivatma must ALSO have THEIR choice and say as well, and agree from THEIR side also.
This is because love is a reciprocation, a two way street and NOT just up to Krishna, not even He can ever force His will on the jiva.
And if He did, then how can their be genuine love as Prabhupada explains.
Devotee - "Srila Prabhupada, why did God give us free will if He knew we would fall down in the material world?"
Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will. But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone. That is not life". (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)
Srila Prabhupada - ”So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.
Try and understand -
ReplyDeleteSrila Prabhupada has taught us that each jiva is an independent free thinking individual with 78% of Krishna's qualities who has their own sense of identity and personality that THEY control, not Krishna.
Otherwise we are no better than "dead stone" or "mindless robots" Prabhupada told us.
Devotee - "Srila Prabhupada, why did God give us free will if He knew we would fall down in the material world?"
Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will. But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone. That is not life". (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)
Each individual jivatma (jiva tattva or soul) never loses their individuality of being a unique individual person who makes their own choices, Krishna never violates the jiva's individual rights and makes choices for the jiva as Prabhupada explains below.
They must decide for themselves who they serve.
So the conclusion is, Krishna does NOT interfere with the jiva's free will to make their own choices because Krishna does not want to force the jiva to surrender, this means even in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana they can fall down if they choose.
In Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver"
Srila Prabhupada is crystal clear -
ReplyDeleteSrila Prabhupada - ”So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.
Srila Prabhupada actually says both, that the jiva can fall down from Vaikuntha and that the jiva does not fall down as Hari Sauri prabhu explained in a class some time ago.
However, Prabhupada ALWAYS emphasis the jivas have FREE WILL and the ability to choose because without those choices, loving exchanges are not possible.
Krishna does not want to be ONLY surrounded by His direct expansions who are all HIM playing rolls.
In fact, without the free thinking individual jivas Krishna can reciprocate with, there is no meaning to Krishna's loving exchanges.
Just like there is no meaning to the Sun without the Sunrays, in other words, just like the Sun cannot exist without the Sunrays, similarly Krishna CANNOT exist without His devotees as explained in "Nectar of Devotion".
Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (BG class August 6, 1973)
This comment refers to less than 10% of jiva tattva, most, more than 90% NEVER choose to fall to the material creation, but that choice is ALWAYS theirs and Krishna does not force one to be His servant, that is voluntary.
Leaving Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana also has nothing to do with material energy or maya because they do not exist in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.
However, what does ETERNALLY exit there in the Spiritual Worlds is ''free will'' and the ''ability to choose''.
Therefore one's fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana is due to "free will" and the "sheer smallness of the jivatma" and NOT maya.
So there is absolutely no material cause for one's fall down from Goloka Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.
Devotee - "Srila Prabhupada, why did God give us free will if He knew we would fall down in the material world?"
Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will. But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone. That is not life". (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)
Srila Prabhupada - "By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can also become siddha. He can become AGAIN nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas AGAIN nitya-siddha" (New York lecture on Caitanya-caritamrta, July 13, 1976)
Srila Prabhupada - "The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha, because God is eternal and His part and parcels, the living entities, they are also eternal. So that is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha, sädhana-siddha, krpa-siddha-there are different grades. They are all described in The Nectar of Devotion. So one can become sadhana-siddha". (New York lecture on Caitanya-caritamrta, July 13, 1976).
Sadly both Sridhar Maharaj and Narayana Maharaj from the Gaudiya Math, preach impersonalist philosophy when explaining the jiva's origin.
ReplyDeleteJust stating the fact of what they believe.
They sadly claim the jiva "originates" from the a clear sheet of consciousness.
Sridhar Maharaj's "impersonal" explanation of the jivas origin - "Generally, souls emanate from the brahmajyoti which is living and growing. Within the brahmajyoti, their equilibrium is somehow disturbed and movement begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. Souls entering the material world come from the marginal position within the brahmajyoti and not from Vaikuntha".
Srila Prabhupada rejects such "impersonalism" explaining there was no beginning for the jiva soul and the jiva's origin is from Vaikuntha with the following comments -
Bhagavad Gita As It Is Chapter 2 Text 20
"For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain".
Srila Prabhupada – "Regarding your several questions: 'Where are the spirit souls coming from that are taking microbe bodies? These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they take various grades of bodies according to their material activities. There is no NEW soul. New and old are due to this material body, the soul is NEVER born and NEVER dies, so if there is no birth how there can be new soul'' (Letter to Jagadisa 7/9/1970.)
Mayesa Dasa Several of the most profound answers regarding our fall from Vaikuntha were written to Jagadisa dasa, Temple president of Toronto.
ReplyDeleteHere are those comments by Prabhupada
Srila Prabhupada – ''Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall. Your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at anytime. So there is always a chance of falling down by misuse of one’s independence'' (Letter to Jagadisa Prabhu, 4/25/1970.)
Srila Prabhupada – Regarding your several questions: Where are the spirit souls coming from that are taking microbe bodies? It is not a matter of any particular body. These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities. There is no “ NEW” soul. “New'’ and “old'’ are due to this material body. But the soul is NEVER born and NEVER dies, so if there is no birth how there can be new soul'' (Letter to Jagadisa 7/9/1970)
Srila Prabhupada - “Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence''. (Letter to Jagadisa 02/27/1970)
Srila Prabhupada - “But his relationship with Krishna is never lost, simply forgotten by the influence of maya so it maybe regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new'' (Letter to Jagadisa 02/27/1970)
Srila Prabhupada - "So, unless there is a possibility of misusing our free will, there is no question of freedom.” (Dialectical Spiritualism, Critique of Descartes)
Srila Prabhupada - "In the broader sense everyone comes from Krishna Loka. When one forgets Krishna he is conditioned, when one remembers Krishna he is liberated". (Letter to Mukunda, June 10, 1969)
Srila Prabhupada - "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately Maya covers us. "Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport". But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going". (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami May 1972 Australia)
Srila Prabhupada - "By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can also become siddha. He can become AGAIN nitya-siddha (eternally liberated). So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas (eternally conditioned) AGAIN nitya-siddha (eternally liberated)" (New York lecture on Caitanya-caritamrta, July 13, 1976)
The Lord has many servants, and most do not come to the material creation such as direct expansions of the Lord who have 93% of Krishna's qualities, they may play simple roles of gopis, gopas, or as just ordinary Town folk in Vrindavana.
ReplyDeleteThe jivas also play the same roles but unlike direct expansions, they have a unique sense of independence with their own identity and 'separate' personality having 78% of the Lords qualities and therefore can choose to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana.
We are all shakti tattva but there are different categories, those with 93% are direct expansions playing different roles and never fall down.
So yes, those who have 78% of Krishna's qualities CAN choose to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana if they want and come to the material world Prabhupada personally told us.
It has nothing to do with Maya it is all to do with free will.
But even then, 90% of jiva tattvas never "choose" to leave however, less than 10% make that choice as Prabhupada explains.
In 1978 I had a long discussion with both Sridhar Maharaj and Narayana Maharaj on this subject and tried to humbly explain to them that that our Prabhupada has taught us that being inactive in the Brahman effulgence is a fallen condition, we fall to that condition, we do NOT originate from it as so many leading gurus and sannyasis in the Gaudiya Math wrongly believe and mislead people with.
We DID NOT originate from some nonsense "clear sheet of consciousness".
Srila Prabhupada told us long ago in 1972
Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (BG class August 6, 1973)
Bhagavat Maharaj talks nonsense when he says letters and lectures are not the same as Books!
ReplyDeleteHari Sauri prabhu, who was Srila Prabhupada's direct servant, explained that it's foolishness to believe there is a difference between Prabhupada's teachings in letters, morning walks, room discusions, lectures or Books.
In fact many books have been printed from morning walks, room conversations and letters especially the letter sent you Madhudvisa Swami and the souls origin.
Our Prabhupada rejected the nonsense idea the jiva originates from the Brahmajyoti that he explained is a fallen condition one falls to.
And where do souls fall from?
Srila Prabhupada - "We have all come from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago" (Bhagavad Gita class August 6, 1973)
The fact is God is more inclined to help those who FIRST do everything they can to help themselves. Only then will Krishna help you when He sees you trying your best to help yourself to remember Krishna.
ReplyDeleteThis is because each jiva has their own independent individual personality and sense of self that allows them to ''choose'' to help themselves first.
Otherwise if Krishna does everything for you, how can there be genuine love?
Real love is reciprocal, it is NEVER a one way street where surrender to Krishna takes away one's sense of self and individuality.
The "highest independence" is "choosing" to be fully dependent on Krishna.
The freedom to EVEN stay in Vaikuntha MUST be the jivas choice in reciprocation with Krishna because without free will there can be no real love.
Srila Prabhupada has said not even Krishna can force you to love Him, LOVE or service is based on free will and then reciprocation.
Srila Prabhupada told his disciples, if you love me then naturally I will love you.