The "highest independence" is "choosing" to be fully dependent on Krishna.
But that does NOT mean one loses their individual identity and personality and Krishna just flows through them in complete control.
No, obliterating one's individual independent unique personality and identity and sense of self, is NOT surrender to Krishna's will!!
Such nonsense surrender is IMPERSONALISM because in REAL surrender, one NEVER loses their independence and individual identity by being fully surrended and dependant on Krishna.
Yes, Krishna "does" control His devotee but His devotee never loses their identity and the personal unique characteristics of their individuality that make them an independent "person" FULLY dependant on Krishna.
Krishna gave the jivatma free will, what does that REALLY mean?
In sastra, Krishna DOES promise one will NEVER again fall from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana when there, and yes, He always keeps His promise!
However, Krishna's promise that one will NEVER again fall down to the material creation once they have returned to the Spiritual World, is from Krishna's side, it is His promise if the jiva chooses to accept it.
However, does this mean the jiva can NEVER choose to leave Krishna again "even if they want to?"
This promise, confirmed by many past Acharays, who all agree that once reaching Vaikuntha, one will never again fall down to the material World, is true for most souls, but not all.
Those great souls who also repeat this comment one can never fall from Vaikuntha ARE right for the majority of souls, which is about 90% in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana, but NOT for all souls because of free will.
Srila Prabhupada is the only one that explains Krishna's promise in this correct way and therefore gives the proper understanding of those comments in full.
And adding, yes MOST never fall down however, a small minority DO fall down and puts that figure of those who choose to leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana at less than 10%
Why do some fall down?
Ultimately, love is not a one way street, it is based on reciprocation.
Therefore, we must NOT forget the jivatma's side too, the jivatma must ALSO have THEIR choice and say as well, and agree from THEIR side also.
This is because love is an act of reciprocation, a two way street and therefore NOT just up to Krishna, not even He can force His will on the jiva relating to individual choices in the name of loving exchanges.
Yes it IS true Krishna can do anything He wants, but to force His will on the jiva only destroys the independent individuality of the jiva.
And if He did, then how can their be genuine love as Prabhupada explains below.
Without the reciprocation of loving healthy exchanges then the jiva is no better than dead motionless stone!
By promising He will NEVER let the jiva fall and forcing it, can be seen as interfering with the free will and individuality of the jiva.
This is because some jivas DO eventually choose to leave as Prabhupada has explained and if Krishna stopped that choice then love ceases to exist.
This is because the jiva also is entitled to THEIR choice of serving or not serving Krishna in their expression of free will.
Krishna will NEVER make that decision for the jiva as Prabhupada explains below.
THE JIVA MUST MAKE THAT CHOICE THEMSELVES, NOT KRISHNA!
Otherwise one's sense of free will is violated, and there can be no question of love if not based on free will, where the jiva has the right to choose for themselves.
Ultimately in the end, it is the jiva's choice and NOT just Krishna's.
And in anycase Krishna ONLY wants loving servants who "choose" through their own free will, to serve and love Him.
Not forced to serve Him by saying "once you are in Goloka Vrindavana, NEVER again will you fall down".
No, that is NOT Krishna's call, it is the jiva's choice too to REMAIN there as the Lords servant as weĺl.
The relationship between servant and Master is NEVER one way, it is a perpetual relationship based on "reciprocation".
The promise by Krishna that the jiva will never again fall down into the material world, is from His side but ultimately it is NOT only Krishna's decision, it is also the jivas in the mood of reciprocation.
After all each jiva is an independent individual with 78% of Krishna's qualities with their own sense of identity that THEY control, not Krishna.
Devotee - "Srila Prabhupada, why did God give us free will if He knew we would fall down in the material world?"
Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will. But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone. That is not life". (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)
Each individual jivatma (jiva tattva or soul) never loses their individuality of being a unique person who makes their own choices, Krishna never violates the jiva's individual rights and makes choices for the jiva as Prabhupada explains below.
They must decide for themselves who they serve.
So the conclusion is, Krishna does NOT interfere with the jiva's free will to make their own choices because Krishna does not want to force the jiva to surrender.
In Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver.
What Srila Prabhupada explains below is a very important point-
Srila Prabhupada - ”So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.
The jiva soul NEVER stops being a PERSON with their own unique individual character and sense of self.
ReplyDeleteThe jiva or real self, has nothing to do with the decaying outer material bodily container the jiva is confined in while trapped in the material creation.
The promise Krishna makes, that one will never again fall down to the material creation once they have returned to the Spiritual World, is from Krishna's side, it is His promise.
ReplyDeleteDoes this mean the jiva can NEVER choose to leave Krishna again "even if they want to?"
This idea that once reaching Vaikuntha one never again falls down is true for most souls but not all, therefore those devotees who say that, no matter who they are, are wrong, souls DO fall from both Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.
And Prabhupada is the only one that puts the figure of those who choose to leave at less than 10%
Ultimately, love is not a one way street, it is based on reciprocation.
Therefore, we must NOT forget the jivatma's side too, the jivatma must ALSO have THEIR choice and say as well, and agree from THEIR side also.
This is because love is a reciprocation, a two way street and NOT just up to Krishna, not even He can ever force His will on the jiva.
And if He did, then how can their be genuine love as Prabhupada explains.
Devotee - "Srila Prabhupada, why did God give us free will if He knew we would fall down in the material world?"
Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will. But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone. That is not life". (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)
Srila Prabhupada - ”So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.