Thursday, December 1, 2022

Is Krsna's promise that once in the Vaikuntha planets or Goloka Vrindavana, one is permanently there over infinity and can never again fall down?

The fact is, over infinity (eternity), not even Krsna's promise can over ride the free will of the jiva-souls, which is their ability to choose for themselves what they want to do or not do.

Acyutananda – "In the Bhagavad Gita Krsna says, "Once coming there to the spiritual abodes, there is no return to the material worlds, so one can return?"

Srila Prabhupada – "If he likes he can return, that is voluntary."

Guru-kripa – "How is it that one can become envious of Krsna?"

Srila Prabhupada – "You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown." (Conversation, Mayapur, Feb 19, 1976)

If Krsna forced His promise by not allowing the jiva-souls to ever again fall down to the material world, He would be interfering and over riding the jiva-soul's free will of self expression to choose for themselves. 

If Krsna forced His will on the jiva-souls, then that would put an end to free will and entering the Vaikuntha planets and Goloka-Vrindavana voluntarily. 

Kṛṣṇa's promise claiming one will never again fall down to the material creation once returning to Godhead, only becomes a fact IF the jiva-souls agree with Krsna or Visnu, otherwise they can leave anytime they want regardless of Krsna's promise.

The discision making is NOT just up to Krsna, if "free will" really exists with the jiva-souls.

That choice MUST exist otherwise there is no question of freedom or genuine expressions of loving exchanges.

In Bhagavad Gita As It Is, it is explained Krsna left the decision for Arjuna to choose. 

It implies that in the Vaikuntha planets and Goloka-Vrindavana, Kṛṣṇa does not impose His will on anyone. 

Krsna has granted free will in the spiritual worlds so the jiva-souls can always have a choice on how to voluntarily contribute and serve Krsna, including even rejecting Krsna if they choose to do so.

Srila Prabhupada – "You have got little independence therefore you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God you have got independence, proportionately, therefore if he likes he can return to the material atmosphere. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that." (Mayapur, Feb 19, 1976)

Having free will is the constitutional make up of all marginal living entities (jiva-souls) that is eternally part and parcel of their individual character and personality in the spiritual worlds.

This means the jiva-souls can choose to leave the Vaikuntha planets or Goloka-Vrindavana if they choose, at anytime, it is nonsense to claim the jiva-souls can never again fall down once in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana.

This is because free will always allows the choice to choose, and without the ability to voluntarily choose, there is no question of loving exchanges.

So the choice to even leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana is possible because Krsna allows a two-way relationship where one can accept or reject Krsna if they choose.

Srila Prabhupada - "Free will means that you can act wrongly. That is free will, unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then? If I act only one sided, that means I have no free will. Because we act sometimes wrongly, that means free will."

Hayagriva - "A man may know better but still act wrongly."

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, but that is free will He misuses his. Just like a thief, he knows that his stealing is bad but still he does it. That is free will. He cannot check his greediness, so in spite of his knowing that he is doing wrong thing—he will be punished, he knows; he has seen another thief, he was punished, he was put into prison— everything he knows, but still he steals. Why? Misuse of free will. Unless there is misuse of free will, there is no question of free will." (Talk with Rene Descartes and Hayagriva dasa 1976)

For loving exchanges to truly exist between Krsna and the jiva-soul, the jiva-souls also must have the the right to express themselves and even be able to choose to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana at anytime, therefore returning there is not necessarily permanent.

Syamasundara - "But can we predict that the process (returning back home back to Godhead) will be permanent? Can we predict that? Just like many prisoners." 

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, otherwise there is no meaning of independence and free will. Independence means you can do this, you can do that. "All right. Whatever you like."

Devotee  "Then he is so many times falling down, again and again, so will he eventually permanently come back?"

Srila Prabhupada - "No, there is no question of permanent because he has got independence, he can misuse his independence, he can fall down. That's why when a man is released from the prison house, that does not mean permanently because he can come back again, the general law is not to come back. but if he likes, he can come back, otherwise what is the meaning of independence? Just like one becomes free from the prison house, naturally he should not go there again." (Prabhupada with Syamasundara and Henri Bergson)

Devotee - "Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka (Goloka-Vrindavana), there’s no possibility of falling down again?"

Srila Prabhupada - "No, there is possibility, but he does not come IF he is intelligent. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it in again IF you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they have to become intelligent." (CC, Adi-lila 7.108 San Francisco, Feb 18, 1967)

It is a fact only less than 10% of jiva-souls (marginal living entities) choose to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana.

This means over 90% of jiva-souls do not fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana to the material worlds because they "choose" not to fall down.

However, even that can change over "infinity" meaning the jiva-souls are beginningless and endless and were NEVER created and therefore can change their minds at anytime over eternity or infinity. 

The jiva-souls have always existed without beginning or end, and have ALWAYS had their "free will" that allows self expression, voluntary offerings and individual contributions that makes one's relationship with Krsna a "two-way" exchange of feelings and not a "one-way" impersonal mindless" domination.

There are no new jiva-souls being created because they were never created, they have ALWAYS existed as Bhagavad Gita As It Is Chapter 2 text 20 reveals.

"For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." (BG Ch 2 text 20 "correct" 1983 edition)

Bhagavad Gita As It Is Chapter 2 text 12 also confirms the jiva-souls were never created. 

"Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be." (BG 2.12)

Srila Prabhupada – "There are no new souls, new and old are due to this material body, but the jiva-soul is never born and never dies, so if there is no birth, how can there be new souls?" (Letter to Jagadisa dasa, 7/9/1970)

However, there are an unlimited variety of "new ways" on how to serve the Lord. It is that service to Lord that is always expanding the spiritual sky.

Exchanges of loving emotions can NEVER exist with just "one," there MUST be "two." Loving exchanges, reciprocation and cooperation can only be experienced between two.

Therefore, God is never one, God is ALWAYS two, Radha and Krsna. 

However, when that two becomes ONE body, then that is Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu.  

Srila Prabhupada - "We have got the propensity to love. Love means somebody else. Love cannot be one or love cannot be executed by only one, there must be another one. I love somebody; somebody loves me, there must be lover, there must be beloved, and the transaction, then love." (SB Canto 1 Ch 2 text 6, Delhi, Nov 12, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada - "Love means "two", there must be two, the lover and the beloved." (Lecture on BG Ch 9 text 2-5, New York, Nov 23, 1966)

Srila Prabhupāda – "Unless there are "two persons", where is the question of love? Love means two persons, then there is exchange, then there is love. I must deal with you open-hearted, you must deal with me open-hearted, then there is love. So if you want to love Kṛṣṇa, God, then these things must be there." (Aug 9, 1976, Tehran)

Srila Prabhupada - "Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force, no, Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, ‘You love me otherwise I shall kill you!" (Washington DC July 8, 1976)

Srila Prabhupada - "The impersonalist philosophy is oneness, so how there be love with just one? Is it possible? Have you got any such experience that love means one? No. Love means two. There must be two, the lover and the beloved. Kṛṣṇa is already lover. He loves you so much that He's trying to get you back. That is Kṛṣṇa's attempt. "Please, My dear boy, or My dear friend, My dear servant." (Lecture on SB Canto 2 Ch, 1 text 3, Paris, June 12, 1974)

Srila Prabhupada – "So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, or one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that is not independence, that is force." (LA, June 23, 1975)

In this regards in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana no decision is necessary permanent, not even remaining in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana.

The choice to stay in or leave is always up to the marginal living entities or jiva-souls too, but as said above, most jiva-souls choose to stay with Krsna or Visnu.*^^*..









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