Gauragopala Das ACBSP: The truth about Krsna's promise, that once returning back home, back to Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana, one never again falls down to the material worlds?

Is this promise permanent?

The fact is, over infinity (eternity), not even Krsna's promise can over ride the free will of the jiva-souls, which is their ability to choose for themselves what they want to do.

If Krsna enforced His promise not to allow the jiva-souls to ever fall down again, He would be interfering with the jiva-soul's free will to choose for themselves what they voluntarily want to do, which includes even rejecting Krsna and again falling down to the material creation, if they choose to do so.

The fact is, if Krsna forced His will on the jiva-souls, in the name of surrender, then that dominance by Krsna will put an end to their free will.

This is because only in a bogus impersonal version of the Vaikuṇṭha planets and Goloka-Vrindavana, would Krsna and Visnu be making all the choices and decisions for the jiva-souls.

This impersonal dictatorship makes "free will" redundant and no different than how a puppeteer controls his puppets.

Kṛṣṇa's promise that claims the jiva-souls will never again fall down to the material creation, once back in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana Godhead, only becomes a fact IF the jiva-souls also agree with Krsna to never again fall down.

This is a very important point to understand.

Free will can only exist and grow when there is a "two-way" reciprocal exchange between Krsna and the individual jiva-souls.

That choice MUST always exist within the constitutional make up of all jiva-souls, otherwise there is no question of the freedom to experience genuine expressions of loving exchanges, or not experiencing them at all.

In Bhagavad Gita As It Is, it is explained Krsna left the decision on how to act for Arjuna to choose.

It implies that in the Vaikuntha planets and Goloka-Vrindavana, Kṛṣṇa does not impose His will on anyone.

Krsna has granted free will in the Spiritual worlds so the jiva-souls can always have a choice on how to voluntarily contribute and serve Krsna, including even rejecting Krsna if they choose to do so.

Srila Prabhupada – "You have got little independence therefore you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God you have got independence, proportionately, therefore if he likes he can return to the material atmosphere. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that." (Mayapur, Feb 19, 1976)

As said above, having free will is the constitutional make up of all marginal living entities (jiva-souls) that is eternally part and parcel of their individual character and personality in the spiritual worlds.

This means the jiva-souls can choose to leave the Vaikuntha planets or Goloka-Vrindavana if they choose, at anytime, it is nonsense to claim the jiva-souls can never again fall down once in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana.

This is because free will always allows the choice to choose, and without the ability to voluntarily choose, there is no question of loving exchanges.

So the choice to even leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana is possible because Krsna allows a two-way relationship where one can accept or reject Krsna if they choose.

Srila Prabhupada - "Free will means that you can act wrongly. That is free will, unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then? If I act only one sided, that means I have no free will. Because we act sometimes wrongly, that means free will."

Hayagriva - "A man may know better but still act wrongly."

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, but that is free will He misuses his. Just like a thief, he knows that his stealing is bad but still he does it. That is free will. He cannot check his greediness, so in spite of his knowing that he is doing wrong thing—he will be punished, he knows; he has seen another thief, he was punished, he was put into prison— everything he knows, but still he steals. Why? Misuse of free will. Unless there is misuse of free will, there is no question of free will." (Talk with Rene Descartes and Hayagriva dasa 1976)

For loving exchanges to truly exist between Krsna and the jiva-souls, the jiva-souls also must have the right to voluntarily express themselves, which includes being able to choose to leave the Vaikuntha planets or Goloka Vrindavana at anytime, and return to the material worlds.

Therefore returning back home, back to Godhead is not necessarily permanent.

Syamasundara - "But can we predict that the process (returning back home back to Godhead) will be permanent? Can we predict that? Just like many prisoners."

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, otherwise there is no meaning of independence and free will. Independence means you can do this, you can do that. "All right, whatever you like."

Devotee "Then he is so many times falling down, again and again, so will he eventually permanently come back?"

Srila Prabhupada - "No, there is no question of permanent because he has got independence, he can misuse his independence, he can fall down. That's why when a man is released from the prison house, that does not mean permanently because he can come back again, the general law is not to come back. but if he likes, he can come back, otherwise what is the meaning of independence? Just like one becomes free from the prison house, naturally he should not go there again." (Prabhupada with Syamasundara and Henri Bergson 1976)

Acyutananda – "But in the Bhagavad Gita it says, "Once coming there to the spiritual abodes, he never returns to the material worlds, he can return?"

Srila Prabhupada – "If he likes he can return."

Guru-kripa – "How is it that one can become envious of Krsna?"

Srila Prabhupada – "You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown." (Conversation, Mayapur, Feb 19, 1976)

Devotee - "Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka (Goloka-Vrindavana), there’s no possibility of falling down again?"

Srila Prabhupada - "No, there is possibility, but he does not come IF he is intelligent. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it in again IF you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they have to become intelligent." (CC, Adi-lila 7.108 San Francisco, Feb 18, 1967)

It is a fact only less than 10% of jiva-souls (marginal living entities) choose to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana.

This means over 90% of jiva-souls do not fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana to the material worlds because they "choose" not to fall down.

However, even that can change over "infinity" meaning the jiva-souls are beginningless and endless and were NEVER created and therefore can change their minds at anytime over that eternity or infinity.

The jiva-souls have always existed, and have ALWAYS had their free will as part of their nature constitutional make up, that allows self expression, voluntary offerings and individual contributions that makes one's relationship with Krsna a "two-way" exchange of feelings and not a "one-way" impersonal mindless" domination.

Srila Prabhupada - "We have got the propensity to love. Love means somebody else. Love cannot be one or love cannot be executed by only one, there must be another one. I love somebody; somebody loves me, there must be lover, there must be beloved, and the transaction, then love." (SB Canto 1 Ch 2 text 6, Delhi, Nov 12, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada - "Love means "two", there must be two, the lover and the beloved." (Lecture on BG Ch 9 text 2-5, New York, Nov 23, 1966)

Srila Prabhupāda – "Unless there are "two persons", where is the question of love? Love means two persons, then there is exchange, then there is love. I must deal with you open-hearted, you must deal with me open-hearted, then there is love. So if you want to love Kṛṣṇa, God, then these things must be there." (Aug 9, 1976, Tehran)

Srila Prabhupada - "Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force, no, Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, ‘You love me otherwise I shall kill you!" (Washington DC July 8, 1976)

Srila Prabhupada - "The impersonalist philosophy is oneness, so how there be love with just one? Is it possible? Have you got any such experience that love means one? No. Love means two. There must be two, the lover and the beloved. Kṛṣṇa is already lover. He loves you so much that He's trying to get you back. That is Kṛṣṇa's attempt. "Please, My dear boy, or My dear friend, My dear servant." (Lecture on SB Canto 2 Ch, 1 text 3, Paris, June 12, 1974)

Srila Prabhupada – "So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, or one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that is not independence, that is force." (LA, June 23, 1975)

In this regards in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana, no decision is necessary permanent, not even remaining in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana because there is always free will.

The choice to stay in or leave is always up to the marginal living entities or jiva-souls too, but as said above, most jiva-souls choose to stay with Krsna or Visnu.

Bhagavad Gita As It Is "correct 1983 edition" Ch 2 text 20 reveals-

"For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." (BG Ch 2 text 20)

Srila Prabhupada - "Because he stays dormantly merged into the Body of Maha-Visnu after the dissolution of the material universes (Brahmandas), he thinks Maha-Visnu is his origin, or when one falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal Brahmajyoti), he also thinks that this impersonal Brahmajyoti may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long before that, he was with Krsna." (letter to Madhudvisa Swami, July 1972 Melb, Australia)

Srila Prabhupada - "In the broader sense, everyone comes from Krsnaloka (Goloka-Vrindavana). When one forgets Krsna, he is conditioned (nitya-baddha), when one remembers Krsna he is liberated (nitya-siddha)." (Letter to Mukunda, June 10, 1969)

Also no jiva-souls "originates" from tatastha-sakti or the impersonal Brahmajyoti either because they are already "fallen" designations.

Srila Prabhupada - "Those in the brahman effulgence are also in a fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition, that non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness (from the Vaikuntha planets and Goloka-Vrindavana)" (Letter to Revatinandana, Los Angeles 13 June, 1970)

Srila Prabhupada - "So this material world is the taṭastha (conditioned) characteristics, and the spiritual world is the "personal" characteristics. So our effort is to get out of this taṭastha (conditioned) characteristics and to enter the permanent characteristics. That is calledq spiritual elevation." (Lecture on CC Madhya-lila 20.354-358, New York City, Dec 28, 1966)

Srila Prabhupada - "Because the individual soul is apt to fall down sometimes under the clutches of māyā, it is called taṭastha-śakti. Just like in the seaside the shore, the beach, sometimes you see it is covered by water and sometimes it is land; similarly, when we are covered by māyā, that is our jīva-bhūta stage, and when there is no more covering, that is brahma-bhūta stage. When we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, then we are brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20), and when we are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, we are materially conscious, that is māyā." (Lecture on BG 7.4-5 - Bombay, March 30, 1971)

The marginal living entities or jiva-souls are not called tatastha-sakti in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana as Prabhupada explains above because the word is a "conditioned" designation.

The word tatastha-sakti refers to the marginal living entities (jiva-souls) in their fallen conditioned state in both the material creation and when dormant in the (impersonal) Brahmajyoti.

Revatīnandana - "Srila Prabhupāda you very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the jiva-soul then goes into the brahmajyoti, he is considered still fallen. Still fallen. Does that means the whole brahmajyoti is composed of fallen souls? You see my question? If I go there, I'm a jīva-soul, and I go to the brahmajyoti I'm still fallen."

Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes."

Revatīnandana - "That means all jīva-souls there in the impersonal Brahman (Brahmajyoti) are also fallen souls?"

Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes, existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition (Goloka-Vrindavana and Vaikuntha). The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness.'' (Letter to Revatinandana, LA 13 June, 1970 and 1971 London).×*×.

Loving exchanges and reciprocation between Kṛṣṇa and the jiva-souls are always expanding.

This example is given with Krsna's loving relationship with Radharani-

Radharani's love for Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's love for Radharani are always expanding into unlimited number of pastimes, all different with new ones happening all the time.

The Spiritual Sky is expanding in this way and NOT with new jiva-souls.

Because of the "eternal presence" of time, all souls, an unlimited amount, already eternally exist and have always existed with no beginning.

This beyond our mundane experiences of past, present and future (material time)

Regarding loving exchanges with Krsna Prabhupada explains-

Srila Prabhupada - "Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force, no, Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, ‘You love me otherwise I shall kill you!" (Washington DC July 8, 1976)

For loving exchanges to truly exist between Krsna and the jiva-soul, the jiva-souls also must have the the right to express themselves and even be able to choose to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana at anytime, therefore returning there is not necessarily permanent.

Syamasundara - "But can we predict that the process (returning back home back to Godhead) will be permanent? Can we predict that? Just like many prisoners."

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, otherwise there is no meaning of independence and free will. Independence means you can do this, you can do that. "All right. Whatever you like."

Devotee "Then he is so many times falling down, again and again, so will he eventually permanently come back?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Kṛṣṇa says, "yes, you can leave if you want otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will and Kṛṣṇa is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." It is free will." (Morning Walk, May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will. But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone either. That is not life." (Aug 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)^^**