Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krsna, we have a perfect relationship with Krsna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we’re already serving Krsna?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Because you miss use your free will and desire to enjoy without Krsna. Many times I have explained, “don’t fall down in this way.”
Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have impure desires when we are already serving Krsna in the spiritual world?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom (free will). Why one is not coming here to the Temple and instead goes to the liquor shop? It is his free will and desire.
Devotee – “In the Srimad Bhagavatam, it says that Krsna did not want us to come to this temporary material world, if Krsna did not want us to come, why are we here?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Yes, you forced Krsna to allow you to come, just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, “My dear son, do not do this, do not go there.” But he insists, “Oh, I must go, I must go.” “All right, you go at your risk and suffer, what can be done?” We can only suggest how the jiva-soul should act, then let them decide, we cannot force the individual to surrender again their will. ¹Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence (free-will), you have acquired this quality of your father, You have got full independence in the spiritual world. So God does not interfere with your independence, if you persist that “I must go and enjoy independently in the material world,” God says, “All right, if you want, you can go and enjoy.” This is the position, when you persist, God will sanction because He does not interfer with your free will and you come to the material world to try and and enjoy without Krsna." (Adapted from lecture BG, Ch 13 text 22-24 Melb Australia June 25, 1974)
So does a place in the spiritual world exist where the individual jiva-souls can never fall down from?
Answer - No, remaining eternally in the spiritual world's of the Vaikuntha planets and Goloka Vrindavana is always voluntary, is by choice therefore not necessarily an eternal established position. In other words, there is no place on the Vaikuntha planets or Goloka Vrindavana where the eternal individual jiva-souls never fall down from.
This is because each individual jiva-soul eternally have their unique freedom of self expression and freedom of activity (free will) allowing them to stay in the spiritual where most do (over 90%), or enter the temporary material world at anytime (thet less that 10% choose to do).
Srila Prabhupada - "Free will means that you can act wrongly. That is free will, unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then? If I act only one sided, that means I have no free will. Because we act sometimes wrongly, that means free will."
Hayagriva dasa - "A man may know better but still act wrongly."
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, but that is free will He misuses his. Just like a thief, he knows that his stealing is bad but still he does it. That is free will. He cannot check his greediness, so in spite of his knowing that he is doing wrong thing—he will be punished, he knows; he has seen another thief, he was punished, he was put into prison— everything he knows, but still he steals. Why? Misuse of free will. Unless there is misuse of free will, there is no question of free will." (Talk on Rene Descartes philosophy)
Voluntary actions of choosing a service to Krsna, is only possible if the individual jiva-souls have free will.
Without free will nothing voluntary could be achieced by the individual jiva-souls because free will means being able to make your own choices, which includes accepting or rejecting Krsna or Visnu.
Srila Prabhupada - "In the spiritual world service there to Krsna is always voluntary. If some devotee wants to serve Krsna as cow, he serves Krsna as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything because it is voluntary." (SB, Canto 6 Ch 1 text 1-4, Melb, May 20, 1975)
If the individual jiva-souls were forced to stay in the spiritual world without having the voluntary option to leave, then how can there be genuine loving exchanges and personal feelings?
Only sentimental spiritually uneducated believe the eternal individual jiva-souls can never fall down from the spiritual world. They do not understand having free will means the individual jiva-souls always have a choice to be with Krsna, or reject Him.
Remaining on the Vaikuntha planets and Goloka Vrindavana eternally, is the individual jiva-soul's choice as the unique individual independent persons they are eternally.
The individual jiva-souls are unique persons as an eternal spiritual bodily form in their full potential in the spiritual world.
The Vaikuntha planets and Goloka-Vrindavana in the spiritual world, are the original infinite homes of the eternal individual jiva-souls.
The individual jiva-souls always communicate from their unique quality of free will, allowing them to make their own individual choices by voluntarily contributing to their unique relationship with Kṛṣṇa.
These loving acts of cooperation can only be possible in a two-way reciprocal exchange with Krsna.
The individual unique jiva-souls are eternal persons for all eternity and will always exist and never ceas to exist as Bhagavad Gita As It Is Chapter 2 explains.
The spiritual world is not an impersonal collective of mindless puppets controlled by the strings of a puppet master, and denied independent contributions and self expression, no, Krsna's spiritual world is not impersonal like that.
The genuine way to become the servant of the servant of the servant of Kṛṣṇa, is only possible when the individual jiva-souls can express their own free will with individual contributions and service (freedom of self-expression), instead of being a non-contributing mindless puppet controlled by a puppet master which is impersonalism.
Surrender to Krsna and His devotees that have no individual unique contributions and self expression, means loving exchanges in a two-sided relationship will never exist because such bogus so called surrender is impersonalism.
Such mindless impersonal surrender of your free will and intelligence is the real hell.
Srila Prabhupada - "The impersonalist philosophy is oneness, so how there be love with just one? Is it possible? Have you got any such experience that love means one? No, love means two, there must be two, the lover and the beloved. Kṛṣṇa is already lover, He loves you so much that He's trying to get you back. That is Kṛṣṇa's attempt. "Please, My dear boy, or My dear friend, My dear servant." (Lecture SB, Canto 2 Ch 1 text 3, Paris, June 12, 1974)
As said above, appearing in that "fallen condition" as a bodiless "spiritual spark" is the unnatural condition of the jiva-soul, who in their full potential is a PERSON as a spiritual bodily form originally like Krsna's form. Therefore, the full potential and original feature of all eternal marginal living entities (individual jiva-souls), is a two-arm form like Krsna's Bodily form.
Srila Prabhupada - "The spirit soul's form is expressed as hands, legs, heads, everything, we cannot see these facts; therefore we foolishly believe the jiva-souls have no form." (Lecture BG, Ch 2 text 14, Mexico, Feb 14, 1975)
Srila Prabhupāda - "The individual spirit soul has eternal form but with our material eyes we foolishly believe it has no form." (Lecture BG, Ch 2 text 14, Mexico, Feb 14, 1975)
Srila Prabhupada – "Man is made after the shape of God, so God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs." (SB, Canto 6 Ch 1 text 1-4, Melb, May 20, 1975)
Selfless emotions of loving devotion to Krsna does not mean the individual jiva-souls lose their unique free will and ability of unique self expression, no, the genuine devotee is always personally aware of how they want yo voluntarily selflessly serve Krsna via the servants of the servants of Krsna.
Therefore, the responsibility of not falling from Krsna's personal Kingdom is the responsibility of the individual jiva-souls, not Kṛṣṇas.
It is their choice (freewill), to choose one way or the other and not by forced surrender.
This means the individual jiva-souls can always agree or disagree with Krsna. Having free will only has meaning when this is possible.
This independent separate sense of individuality means the jiva-souls can voluntarily choose Krsna, or reject Krsna.
Remember, Maya (the material energy) does not exist in the Vaikuntha planets or Goloka-Vrindavana, so maya is unknown to the eternal individual jiva-souls.
Therefore, free will, individuality, expressing independent personal thoughts, having a unique sense of individual self worth, allows the individual jiva-souls to express themselves in their own unique way, by having the personal unique ability to voluntary express themselves as the separated individuals they eternally are in the spiritual world.
All these qualities make up the individual unique personalities of jiva-souls in the Vaikuntha planets and Goloka Vrindavana.
If all those qualities are taken away, then the individual jiva-souls lose the ability to give and accept love, the jiva-souls become no better than a stone or mindless impersonal drones, only taught to obey and forced to act and agree without inquiry and personal contributions.
Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are Son of God you have got independence (free-will), you have acquired this quality from your father, so God does not interfere with your independence." (Melb, Australia June 25, 1974)
No one can force the individual jiva-souls to stay in the Vaikuntha planets, or Goloka-Vrindavana, that choice must always be voluntary and the choice of the individual jiva-souls.
For love to truly exist, there must be loving exchanges between two in a two-sided reciprocal cooperative relationship.
In this way love is always expressed between two and is never possible with just one.
The individual jiva-souls always have the right to leave the Vaikuntha planets and Goloka Vrindavana at anytime if they choose however, most stay in the spiritual world, over 90% never fall down to the material world because they choose not to fall down.
And the fact is, only a very small minority do choose to leave the spiritual world (less than 10%)
To say those who enter the Vaikuntha planets and Goloka-Vrindavana will never ever again fall down to the material world, is true but only for those jiva-souls who choose not to fall down.
In other words, if the jiva-souls choice to leave, they certainly can leave at anytime otherwise free will has no meaning.
To make a blanket comment that "not even the leaves fall and leave the Vaikuntha planets or Goloka Vrindavana seems to not take into consideration the free will of the individual jiva-souls.
These comments from some past sages and acharyas who claim the individual jiva-souls can never fall down once in the Vaikuntha planets and Goloka-Vrindavana may have been said for many reasons, to give faith among aspiring devotees and neophytes to encourage them to understand that their natural constitutional position is to never choose to leave the spiritual world, their real eternal home.
And never choose to desire to enter the material world once they have returned to the Vaikuntha planets and Goloka-Vrindavana.
However, to come to the material world is ultimately the individual jiva-souls choice due to free will and Krsna does not interfere.
Even though Krsna has promised there is no return to the material creation once in the spiritual world, but there is if the eternal jiva-souls want to return and reject Krsna’s promise.
The fact is there is if the individual jiva-soul wants to return to the material world, this is Prabhupada's point here-
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God, that is delusion. You cannot become God, that is not possible, but he’s wrongly thinking he can."
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krsna protect us from those desires?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting, Krsna says, “You rascal, don’t misuse your desires (free will) surrender unto Me, but rascals only choose to misuse their free will."
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?"
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence, that is force. In Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.)
Krsna promises the individual jiva-souls that once they are in the spiritual world, the jiva-souls never again enter the material world however, love is always a two-way street and not a one-sided decision made by only Krsna.
Therefore, Krsna's promise only has meaning if the individual jiva-souls choose to accept that promise as explained below.
Acyutananda – “But in Bhagavad Gita Krsna it says, “Once coming to the spiritual world, he never returns to the material world. So he can return?”
Srila Prabhupada – “If he likes he can return, that is voluntary."
Guru-kripa – “How is it that one can become envious of Krsna?”
Srila Prabhupada – “You have got your little independence (free will) that you can violate at anytime. Because you are part and parcel of God, you have also got independence, not like God, only proportionately, therefore if you like, you can voluntary return to the material world if you choose. That independence has to be accepted, we can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown." (Mayapur, Feb 19, 1976)=^*^=
No comments:
Post a Comment
Note: Only a member of this blog may post a comment.