Does past, present, and future all exist simultaneously?
Albert Einstein concluded in his later years that the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously
Could it be possible with Vedic understanding to understand that past present and future in the material creation is happening simultaneously from a higher dimensional viewpoint and our bodily vessel is a 'post' for the jiva to pass through the material universe or mahat tattva like one travels on the twists and turns of an already built road or pathway??
In this way our material vessel 'IS' that pathway also traversed by unlimited jivas. This is just another way of seeing the fact that ‘I am not this material body’gauragopala
Of course understanding this is not easy to comprehend. Others see this understanding from a mundane viewpoint and cannot understand
Unfortunately it is very much a reality still today that the works of the really great spirits in science, such as Albert Einstein, Richard Feynman, and Stephen Hawking, and their most fundamental conclusions about the universe, remain unappreciated, even unnoticed by the majority of scientists.
These three giants all made very similar conclusions regarding the timelessness of the Universe, yet even today the science of timelessness is overlooked.
“Time has no independent existence apart from the order of events by which we measure it.” —Albert Einstein
Excerpt from Chapter One
in The Book: Everything Forever:
Learning to See Timelessness
“You have the sight now Neo, you are looking at the world without time.” —The Oracle in The Matrix
“I have realized that the past and future are real illusions, that they exist in the present, which is what there is and all there is.”—Alan Watts
Albert Einstein and the Fabric of Time
Surprising as it may be to most non-scientists and even to some scientists, Albert Einstein concluded in his later years that the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously. In 1952, in his book Relativity, in discussing Minkowski's Space World interpretation of his theory of relativity, Einstein writes:
Since there exists in this four dimensional structure [space-time] no longer any sections which represent "now" objectively, the concepts of happening and becoming are indeed not completely suspended, but yet complicated. It appears therefore more natural to think of physical reality as a four dimensional existence, instead of, as hitherto, the evolution of a three dimensional existence.
Einstein's belief in an undivided solid reality was clear to him, so much so that he completely rejected the separation we experience as the moment of now. He believed there is no true division between past and future, there is rather a single existence.
His most descriptive testimony to this faith came when his lifelong friend Besso died. Einstein wrote a letter to Besso's family, saying that although Besso had preceded him in death it was of no consequence, "...for us physicists believe the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, although a convincing one."
Most everyone knows that Einstein proved that time is relative, not absolute as Newton claimed. With the proper technology, such as a very fast spaceship, one person is able to experience several days while another person simultaneously experiences only a few hours or minutes.
The same two people can meet up again, one having experienced days or even years while the other has only experienced minutes. The person in the spaceship only needs to travel near to the speed of light. The faster they travel, the slower their time will pass relative to someone planted firmly on the Earth.
If they were able to travel at the speed of light, their time would cease completely and they would only exist trapped in timelessness. Einstein could hardly believe there were physicists who didn’t believe in timelessness, and yet the wisdom of Einstein's convictions had very little impact on cosmology or science in general. The majority of physicists have been slow to give up the ordinary assumptions we make about time.
The two most highly recognized physicists since Einstein made similar conclusions and even made dramatic advances toward a timeless perspective of the universe, yet they also were unable to change the temporal mentality ingrained in the mainstream of physics and society.
Einstein was followed in history by the colorful and brilliant Richard Feynman. Feynman developed the most effective and explanatory interpretation of quantum mechanics that had yet been developed, known today as Sum over Histories.
Just as Einstein's own Relativity Theory led Einstein to reject time, Feynman’s Sum over Histories theory led him to describe time simply as a direction in space. Feynman’s theory states that the probability of an event is determined by summing together all the possible histories of that event. For example, for a particle moving from point A to B we imagine the particle traveling every possible path, curved paths, oscillating paths, squiggly paths, even backward in time and forward in time paths.
Each path has an amplitude, and when summed the vast majority of all these amplitudes add up to zero, and all that remains is the comparably few histories that abide by the laws and forces of nature. Sum over histories indicates the direction of our ordinary clock time is simply a path in space, which is more probable than the more exotic directions time might have taken otherwise.
Other worlds are just other directions in space, some less probable, some equally as probable as the one direction we experience. And some times our world represents the unlikely path. Feynman's summing of all possible histories could be described as the first timeless description of a multitude of space-time worlds all existing simultaneously.
In a recent paper entitled Cosmology From the Top Down, Professor Stephen Hawking of Cambridge writes; “Some people make a great mystery of the multi universe, or the Many-Worlds interpretation of quantum theory, but to me, these are just different expressions of the Feynman path integral.”
What is still not quite resolved in modern physics is how to properly combine Quantum theory with Einstein's Relativity Theory. It appears evident that time is purely a direction in space but how then do we explain the uncertainty of quantum mechanics?
Why does it appear that God plays dice with the world. The two theories, each having been proven by their usefulness, do of course tell the same story about this one universe, but we just haven't learned yet to hear the story right. The best modern theory going is probably the No Boundary Proposal, put fourth by Stephen Hawking and Jim Hartle.
This theory introduces a second reference of time which has been inappropriately named Imaginary time. Hawking, writes of the no boundary proposal, "The universe would be completely self contained and not affected by anything outside itself. It would neither be created nor destroyed. It would just BE."
In my book Everything Forever, and here at my website, I explain how fourth dimensional spatial directions travel through a series of independent three dimensional block-like spaces, which in science we call states, but they can also be thought of simply as patterns.
Hawking has already proposed that imaginary time can be found at right angles to ordinary time. I further explain that it is possible in an objective way to understand the universe to be like a book or a movie film. Each moment is a separate universe just like each frame of a movie or page of a book is separate.
Yet those separate states simultaneously form the larger whole of the movie or the book. Seeing each moment as a continually existing place sheds light on why particles would then travel as a quantum wave, rather than linearly from point a to point b.
This is explained better elsewhere, but if each moment of ordinary time is a solid, static, "block of now", or field of space, then time each new moment is a distinctly different universe. What we call time is a spatial direction that travels through many static three dimensional universes.
In such a model, what we call time is created purely out of space. Special directions in space travel through each static three dimensional space, therein producing a new realm of space beyond three dimensions, which we call time. The interesting quality this produces, is how the inhabitants of this fourth dimension of space travel a linear path from past to future, but the surrounding environment of each path is shifting from one pattern to the next.
This sends particles from one position in four dimensional space to the next without moving linearly. As a result, each individual observer in the fourth dimension experiences a continuous linear time, even though everything in their immediate environment is moving sequentially from place to place. Hence each temporal environment of four dimensional space is constructed relative to each independent observer.
One can imagine oneself smoothly traveling a direct and interconnected path through time, but in looking around at one's environment, one sees that all other directions of time are broken, causing particles to appear to sequentially leap from one place to another.
Paradoxically, everyone observes their own path and experience of time to be linear, while all else around them is sequential. In fact, when we explore time as a direction through many 3D spaces, we find qualities of curvature, time dilation, and spatial contraction, precisely as relativity describes those qualities within our own spacetime.
There is one quote I have found from Einstein which is more or less a contemplative mental thought about the notion of infinite spaces, which doesn't directly relate to my own approach of describing a shape to all possible spaces, but it does at least open up the subject of an infinite number of spaces to speculation. And it also shows the open minded nature of Einstein's thoughts about empty space, which some have thought were closed.
When a smaller box s is situated, relativity at rest, inside the hollow space of a larger box S, then the hollow space of s is a part of the hollow space of S, and the same "space," which contains both of them, belongs to each of the boxes. When s is in motion with respect to S, however, the concept is less simple.
One is then inclined to think that s encloses always the same space, but a variable part of the space S. It then becomes necessary to apportion to each box its particular space, not thought of as bounded, and assume that these two spaces are in motion with respect to each other...
Before one has become aware of this complication, space appears as an unbounded medium or container in which material objects swim around. But it must be remembered that there is an infinite number of spaces, which are in motion with respect to each other...
The concept of space as something existing objectively and independent of things belongs to pre-scientific thought, but not so the idea of the existence of an infinite number of spaces in motion relatively to each other. This latter idea is indeed unavoidable, but is far from having played a considerable role even in scientific thought.
I can testify that Einstein's speculations revealed here concerning infinite spaces in motion do at least carry us in the right direction in how they suggest space might have an unseen and possibly infinite content.
Similar ideas were introduced by David Bohm, who claimed there are two kinds of order in nature, what he called explicate order and implicate order. Implicate order for Bohm was a way of acknowledging how quantum mechanics reveals a hidden order where our world is influenced by the whole of all possible states. However, that order is much more visible than Bohm ever realized, as explained in part two.
Unfortunately it wasn't until Einstein died that scientists began to consider the a Many Worlds Theory in science. It's safe to say that in Einstein's time we were still getting used to the idea of the Big Bang, adjusting to the ever more visible vast sea of other galaxies, and the possibility of alien life on other planets.
The universe and reality were still primarily considered purely solid and material based. Quantum theory, which eventually led to the theory of many worlds, had not yet fully withstood the test of time. Einstein even rejected its implications, saying "God does not play dice" with the world, even as he himself established that there is more to the universe than a single evolving moment of now.
In my explorations of timelessness I reveal that ordinary space is not merely full of other empty spaces, but empty space is actually the whole of all physical realities; all the universes of the many worlds theory. Profound as it may be, if the theories I propose are correct, space is full, rather than empty.
Material things are less than the fullness of space. In fact, it may be that space must include all possibilities in order to seem empty to us.
So in summary, the universe we see is just a fragment nested in a timeless (everything) whole, rather than a single material world magically arisen above some primordial nothing. All universes exist without beginning or end in the ultimate arena of time, and each moment we experience exists forever.
What is the nature of time?
Time as you experience it is an illusion caused by your own physical senses. They force you to perceive action in certain terms, but this is not the nature of action.
The apparent boundaries between past, present and future are only illusions caused by the amount of action you can physically perceive, and so it seems to you that one moment exists and is gone forever, and the next moment comes and like the one before also disappears. everything in the universe exists at one time simultaneously.
The first words ever spoken still ring through the universe, and in your terms, the last words ever spoken have already been said. the past, present and future only appear to those who exist within three-dimensional reality.
The past exists as a series of electromagnetic connections held in the physical brain and in the nonphysical mind. These electromagnetic connections can be changed.
The future consists of a series of electromagnetic connections in the mind and brain also. In other words, the past and present are real to the same extent.
You take it for granted that present action can change the future, but present actions can also change the past. The past is no more objective or independent from the perceiver than is the present. The electromagnetic connections were largely made by the individual perceiver. The connection can be changed, and such changes are far from uncommon. These changes happen spontaneously on a subconscious basis.
The past is seldom what you remember it to be, for you have already rearranged it from the instant of any given event. The past is being constantly re-created by each individual as attitudes and associations change. This is an actual recreation, not a symbolic one. The child is indeed still within the man, but he is not the child that "was", for even the child within the man constantly changes.
Difficulties arise when such alterations do not occur automatically. Severe neurosis is often caused precisely because an individual has not changed his past.
A change of attitude, a new association, or any of innumerable other actions will automatically set up new electromagnetic connections and break others.
Every action changes every other action. Therefore, every action in your present affects actions you call past. It is possible to react in the past to an event that has not occurred, and to be influenced by your own future. it is also possible for an individual to react in the past to an event in the future, which in your terms, may never occur.
Because past, present and future exist simultaneously, there is no reason why you cannot react to an event whether or not it happens to fall within the small field of reality in which you usually observe and participate.
On a subconscious level, you react to many events that have not yet occurred as far as your ego's awareness is concerned. such reactions are carefully screened out and not admitted to consciousness. The ego finds such instances distracting and annoying, and when forced to admit their validity, will resort to the most far fetched rationalizations to explain them.
No event is predestined. Any given event can be changed not only before and during but after its occurrence.
The individual is hardly at the mercy of past events, for he changes them constantly. He is hardly at the mercy of future events, for he changes these not only before but also after their happening. An individuals future actions are not dependent upon a concrete finished past, for such a past never existed. The past is as real as the future, no more or less.
There is a part of you that is not locked within physical reality, and that part of you knows that there is only an eternal now. the part of you that knows is the whole self, your inner and outer ego (all that you are).
From within this framework you will see that see that physical time is as dreamlike as you once thought inner time was. You will discover your whole self, peeping inward and outward at the same "time", and find that all time is one time, and all divisions, illusions.- spiritual-endeavors.org/seth/andy4.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_1683208037&feature=iv&src_vid=j-u1aaltiq4&v=vrqmMoI0wks
Srila Prabhupada – “No one can see the entire universe sitting in one place. Even the most advanced scientist cannot see what is going on in other parts of the universe. Krsna gives him (Arjuna) the power to see anything he wants to see, past, present and future. Thus by the mercy of Krsna, Arjuna is able to see everything". Chapter 11, The Universal Form Bhagavad Gita as it is text 7
Every material bodily vessel in the material worlds are a container that is possessed by an individual baddha-jiva soul which is the secondary sub-conscious state of the jiva tattva only found in the mahat tattva or material creation; these material vessels used by the baddha jiva to get around in while in the mahat tattva, are always ornaments or parts and parcels of the material multiverses or mahat tattva.
Could all material vessels we dwell in therefore be always a permanent fixture within the mahat-tattva and continuously exist each step along the way within the dimensions of the space-time continuum with different baddha-jivas passing through that bodily pathway? Hard to explain and understand
The maha-tattva may appear to be re-created and annihilated (due to the journey through past, present and future) however, this is not happening by the passing of time but is rather happening through the journey of time.
Therefore from the bigger picture of seeing the past, present and future all together, ONE SEES THE MAHAT-TATTVA OR MATERIAL ENERGY AS IT REALLY IS.
So Einstein was right in these regards. Therefore, it is not surprising to understand that many baddha-jivas have experienced the exact same bodily vessel we are presently confined too.
After all, these vessels belong to Maha-Vishnu and we are experiencing His dream while ‘thinking’, we are the material gross (biological) and subtle body (ethereal) we presently possess.
By truly realizing this by the mercy of the Spiritual Master, one is instantly freed from all karmic reaction. Such realizations enable one to simply exit the subtle and gross dream bodies and most importantly the subtle ethereal body and again regain the memory of ones genuine nitya-siddha body in Vaikuntha.
Keep in mind when absolute knowledge of selfless Bhakti is realized and acted upon, all the ethereal and material bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva or material creation are not only seen as counterfeit bodies or vehicles the nitya-baddha consciousness is provided with by Maha-Vishnu, but also are ‘posts’ or ‘borrowed mundane costume-outfits’ that have been worn again and again within Maha-Vishnu’s mahat-tattva stage drama of material existence.
Therefore, an unlimited number of baddha-jivas over a period of many, many mahat-tattva creations of Maha-Vishnu have lived in material bodies that are constantly created over and over again.
The nitya-baddha sub-consciousness wears these material vessels provided by Maha-Vishnu so they can act out the already conceived drama-play according to the script (dream) and the Director Maha-Vishnu, that eternally exists always somewhere within His maha-tattva material creation.
In other words such material costumes worn by the visiting nitya-baddha sub-consciousness are always there in blue print during the present mahat-tattva material creation as well as every time the mahat-tattva is re-created by Maha-Vishnu after its annihilation. Factually it always exists in each step through the journey of time and space.
It must be clearly understood that the ‘perpetual presence’ of Goloka and Vaikuntha exists in the entire Spiritual Sky that includes the mahat-tattva.
However, within the mahat-tattva ‘material’ facet of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, the ‘eternal presence’ is divided into the journey of past, present and future that manifests a shell or different material bodies encasing the baddha-jiva that are all perishable and decay with the movement or rather the journey of time.
This decaying effect is natural to the mahat-tattva’s ethereal (subtle) and biological (gross) material bodies and their surroundings.
Like frames in a movie canister where each frame always exists together and at the same time as a part of the over all film canister or cylinder similarly, the material ethereal and biological costumes of the mahat-tattva always exist from its birth, to youth, middle age and death from the bigger viewpoint.
Each step of the vessel or material body is like the frame in the film canister and that canister is compared to the mahat-tattva.
Just like a film is made up of frame by frame pictures, the bodily costume and their surrounding are both decorations and ornaments of the mahat-tattva and are also divided into frame by frame realities that are 'moving' within the perpetual blue-print of past, present and future of the mahat-tattva that the nitya-baddha consciousness simply passes through.
The facilities or bodily costumes and their entire pathway from birth to death, is provided by Maha-Vishnu. We are simply passengers in His material bodily creations playing out His dreams that are simultaneously our dreams. The baddha-jivas material desires cannot be fulfilled without the provisions of Maha-Vishnu.
Could it be that the present material bodily vessel we are passengers in are also available in another time and place when the mahat-tattva is again recreated or within the same mahat-tattva in a different dimension of time for other nitya-baddha sub-consciousness’s to ‘lease’ off Maha-Vishnu? Good question
Even when Arjuna was with Krsna he was afraid because he could see all past, present and future - seeing the future activity of his family and himself seems to indicate the future is already 'there' for all of us to pass through just like one traverse a road already built.
Perhaps John Lennon with his I am you, you are me LSD experience and Richard Feynman with his idea that there is only one electron in the universe over lapping space-time were thinking the same impersonal theory. The material energy that the 'individual' soul is covered by is 'one' When that covering dissolves it merges back into the mahat tattva. The material energy is 'one' where as the Spiritual energy is made up of individual living entities
I would like to understand how the one electron theory being the entire universe works, if anyone in quantum science can help me, how does one electron become two in different time zones of past, present and future and expands over trillions of years to become the expanding universe?
Richard Feynman and his colleagues were awarded the Nobel Prize in 1965 for explaining all particles can travel backward in time (This interpretation is still the explanation currently accepted today.)
Feynman then speculated that perhaps the entire universe consisted of just one electron, zigzagging back and forth in time. Imagine that out of the chaos of the original big bang only a single electron was created. Trillions of years later, this single electron would eventually encounter the cataclysm of annihilation, where it would make a U-turn and go backward in time, releasing a gamma ray in the process.
Then it would go back to the original big bang, and then perform another U-turn. The electron would then make repeated zigzag journeys back and forth, from the big bang to annihilation.
Our universe in the twenty-first century is just a time slice of this electron's journey, in which we see trillions of electrons and anti-electrons, that is, the visible universe.
As strange as this theory may appear, it explains a curious fact from the quantum theory: why all electrons are the same. Maybe the reason is that the entire universe consists of the same electron, just bouncing back and forth in time.
Feynman's notion about one single electron, and antimatter particles travelling backwards in time grew into his theory of quantum electrodynamics, which has been experimentally verified to one part in 10 billion, making it one of the most accurate theories of all time.
Could our universe really have only one electron, whizzing back and forth within timelessness to create the trillions of electrons we see at any particular "now" for our universe? Could consciousness be the same, only one consciousness travelling back and forth across time, experiencing the endless complexity of our universe from a unique perspective each time, but ultimately seeing itself complete the same journey over and over again?
Perhaps John Lennon with his I am you, you are me LSD experience and Richard Feynman were thinking about ideas that were more similar than either of them could ever have realized.
Einstein speculated, that the electron is indeed the leading player in the universe and is intimately involved with light, matter, the laws of Nature, and our lives.
The path to the answer, is simple: Reject the discrete material electron and replace it with a wave-structured electron as proposed by Schroedinger and Clifford - using a scalar-wave equation. The math and the proofs are straight-forward because scalar waves are the only possible choice.
Only two principles underlie all results. Despite this simplicity the WSM explains the origin of the natural laws, new applications in micro-physics and chips, understanding light energy exchange and lasers, plus the answers to most current paradoxes of physics. It is breathtaking to find so many results together – simply by answering Einstein’s question "What is the Electron". (Milo Wolff, Geoff Haselhurst)
The Vedas tell us there are two different universes, one called the Vaikunthas (anti-matter) where everything is alive and is never created and exists perpetually in what is known as the eternal presence of time or service to Krsna that has no past or future, just the eternal ‘NOW’ that is without decay, beginning or end and is the original home of all living entities.
The other is the material universe (matter) that we are presently trapped in by these material bodies or vessels that is created and experiences annulation and exists in the realm of past, present and future.
The material universes have two basic realities, the subtle ethereal material universe and the gross biological. The gross matter we see only takes up 4% of the material creation, which is all the planets, Moons, Suns, within all the Solar Systems and galaxies we perceive with our biological eyes and its extensions like the Hubble Telescope and the Large Hadron Collider.
The other 96% of the material universe is made up of subtle matter that cannot be perceived with gross material means like the Large Hadron Collider, Telescopes or Electron microscopes, it is only realized by pious and impious activities and is where the heavenly and hellish material subtle worlds exist that are often the material heavenly realm is mistaken as Vaikuntha the eternal kingdom of God by Buddhists, Christians, Jews and Muslims but are only a subtler realm of the material universe.
From the material point of view, all ‘matter’ is one and the individual jiva or soul can enter different bodily vessels in the material universe.
Question - I have heard that Richard Feynman has said that there is only one electron in the world! He has done it using complicated space time diagrams which show anti-electrons moving backward in time!
Can you please explain what he meant by "one electron”?
Answer -
First of all, don't confused the two separate statements:
(1) There is only one electron in the Universe
(2) an electron moving forward in time is identical as a positron moving backwards in time
Let's start with the second statement, when we use a Feyman diagramhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feynman_dia… to describe an electron moving forwards in time, we see that it is equivalent to describing a position moving backwards in time. The two are completely indistinguishable.
The first statement that there is only one electron in the Universe has to do with the fact that there appears to be NO way to distinguish one electron from another, and when we try to look at one particular electron (i.e. collapse its wavefunction), it immediately after the collapse returns to an indeterminate state.
Every electron in the universe is exactly identical to every other electron. It's not just that we can't tell them apart, nature itself can not tell the difference (this has observable consequences in physics). Not only that, the description of a positron moving forward in time is identical to the description of an electron moving backward in time.
This led Richard P. Feynman to suggest that there is only one electron in the universe moving back and forth in time, so the reason that all electrons are indistinguishable is that they are in fact all the same electron. (I should note that Feynman did not mean this terribly seriously, but it illustrates as forcefully as anyone can that electrons are completely identical.)
So the conjecture is that in the Universe there is really only one electron. It appears only for an instant when the collapse of the wavefunction is required, then it's off to do another collapse somewhere else.
So this one electron is going around everywhere poping up where it needs to give the appearance that there are many many electrons.
The material energy that the 'individual' soul is covered by is 'one.' When that material covering dissolves it merges back into the mahat tattva or material elememts. The material energy or covering of the 'individual' jiva or soul is 'one' where as the Spiritual energy is made up of individual living entities or jivas. Everything in the material creation already exists and we simply travel on a roadway made of material energy that is already there and get that material body or pathway according to our karma and desire.
From Maha Vishnu's point of View EVERYTHING in His material universes already exists, all the good, all the bad, EVERYTHING. To be free from that we must reestablish our original relationship with Krishna - our original svarupa. Maha Vishnu knows past, present and future, that is clear but also inconceivable to us because we see things and and think 'how can anyone know what I am going to do next,' how can anyone know the future? Well, Maha Vishnu already knows EVERYTHING, this is what is meant by - 'every material vessel that we, the individual jiva, occupy already has its own pathway and already mapped out. Krishna showed Arjuna ALL past, present and future in the material universe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehRggplMieM
God knows EVERYTHING, He knows the path of every material body, after all Maha Vishnu created this material universe - Vaikuntha is the real PERSONAL world of individuality and real freedom, freedom to eternally serve Krishna where as the material universe is impersonal meaning a whole planet may have only one soul or jiva moving through all material bodies on that planet back and forwards over past, present and future within time and space.
To be free from that, from all those material bodies we move through in the overlapping of time, we must re-establish our original relationship with Krishna in Vaikuntha where you ARE you 'spiritual' body and NOT everyone else's body as well, as may be the case in the material universe's material bodily vessels.
The ultimate realization is we are all 'individual jivas with a spiritual form that is NOT material or biological', that realization is only possible when we understand that Vaikuntha, which is beyond the material universe, is our original home, free from the material universe's temperary bodily containers and therefore, realizing you true individuality as Krishna's servant as ones original svarupa or spiritual form, this is the highest realization in the universe
Chapter 11. The Universal Form
TEXT 7
TRANSLATION
Whatever you wish to see can be seen all at once in this body. This universal form can show you all that you now desire, as well as whatever you may desire in the future. Everything is here completely.
PURPORT
No one can see the entire universe sitting in one place. Even the most advanced scientist cannot see what is going on in other parts of the universe. Krsna gives him the power to see anything he wants to see, past, present and future. Thus by the mercy of Krsna, Arjuna is able to see everything.
Wednesday, November 5, 2014
Tuesday, October 7, 2014
Personalism is the highest realization. The Villagers and the train - Different realizations of the absolute truth
Many years ago, the British came to India and began building a train line between Delhi and Mathura. Many simple villages on the outskirts at the time had no idea what a train looked like, so when the time had come to greet the train, the village elders would sent a young representative down to meet the train and ascertain what it is and then come back with the news of its anticipated arrival.
On the evening of its appearance, the villagers patiently and inquisitively waited in expectation and wonder of what a ‘train’ was. Eventually day turned to night and everyone in the Village became anxious and excited, knowing the train’s arrival was imminent. The fact was, no one had any inkling of what a train was. The young boy was dispatched and was told to immediately report back to the Village elder as soon as he identifies the train.
Off the young boy went in the dark and began to wait patiently. The night sky was clear and there was very little breeze in the air, he could hear the usual sounds of native animals although; even they were quite on this still moonless chilly night.
Then to the young boys surprise, out of the pitch black darkness and the still of night, he heard this thunderous extended high-pitched sound (the train whistles), being excited, he was convinced he now new what the train was. He immediately ran back to the village elders and excitedly told them,
"The train is a big sound"
Some of the elders were puzzled, but most accepted the news as final and that a train is just a sound. Still not convinced the train was just a sound, feeling puzzled, a few decided to send another young villager down to investigate this sound and if there was more to the train. The second young boy the villager elders sent down was told to wait well into the darkness of night until the sound came closer to him. Eventually, after hearing the sound many times in a mood of fear of the unknown and inquisitiveness of what a train really is, he finally saw in the distance an extremely bright light that scared him. The combination of the sound and the bright blinding light frightened him because he did not understand what he was experiencing! Being excited he rushed back to the elders proclaiming,
“The train is not only a sound but is also 'bright blinding light' as well”
Many at the village where now convinced what a train was and most where satisfied however, still a few believed there might be more to a train than an impersonal sound and light. So again they sent a third young boy to investigate. He also began to patiently wait and stay for as long as it takes. He began experiencing the sound getting louder and the light getting brighter, louder and louder the sound was becoming while at the same time the light was becoming brighter and brighter - then to his surprise, both the sound and light passed him by. To his astonishment, he discovered the source of both the sound and light, coming from the form of the train. Behind the sound and light was form, or objects like carriages that are filled with people like him, all engaging in all kinds of different activities? He ran back to the village yelling,
“The train is a form from where the sound and light emanated, where people are engaged in all kinds of activity”.
They all eventually saw the train for what it really is (Personalism) Brahman therefore is held together by form
The highest realizing is Personalism. The above painting is of Krishna and His brother Balarama whose abode Goloka-Vrindavan is beyond the impersonal light or impersonal Brahman destination of impersonalist yogis and Buddhists. There are three basic aspects of the absolute truth.
The goal of human life is to perfect ones individuality, identity, Personality by serving a bonafide Spiritual Master and again begin to re-establish ones eternal relationship with Krishna. In this way one should not foolishly attempt to extinguish ones individual identity in some nonsense ‘Its all one’ atheistic madness by only mediating on the Impersonal sound Om or the Impersonal Brahmajoyti, Nirvana or Clear Light. The complete picture of Krishna’s creation can only be realized through the favour of Krishna’s Pure Devotees.
The Jains, Buddhist, Impersonalists Yogis and Mayavadis are compared to the villager hearing the sound or only seeing the light and foolishly believing that formless impersonalism is the ‘Absolute Truth’. They are not seeing the bigger picture of what the Absolute Truth really is as described in the previous narrative about the train.
The Impersonalist Yogis, Mayavadis and Buddhists version of Brahmajyoti (Nirvana) is ONE all pervasive life force with no individuality or identity which is really atheism. Impersonalist yogis, Mayavadis and Buddhists do not believe in individual souls (jivas). They therefore believe the ultimate end of existence is to perfect their constitution by accumulating the knowledge (cit) of how to end the cycle of birth and death (karma), then merge their consciousness into the oneness of Nirvana (void or light) like rivers flow into the ocean, denying the existence of identity, individuality, personality and perpetual bodily form.
The impersonal Brahmajyoti is where individual nitya-baddha-souls (impersonalist yogis) remain dormant without having any knowledge of their original and eternal nitya-siddha bodily form. This state of suspended animation and forgetfulness is also known as Impersonalism. Even this state of inactive dreamless existence in the Brahmajoyti is temporary, although it may seem to lasts for an almost a time without end, in the face of the eternal 'prsents' in Goloka, it is only less than a moment.
They therefore cannot understand the eternal unchanging perpetual Krishna Conscious living universe (Goloka) where a blissful loving relationship exists with Krishna and His eternal associates. This Perpetual Living Universe of Lord Krishna’s is beyond the cloud cover known as the material creation or mahat-tattva. Srila Prabhupada says – “where there is light there is no darkness’.
Although the foolish rascals cannot imagine how Kṛṣṇa or God is NOT formless but has eternal form who appears just like a human being, can control the infinite and the finite, those who are pure devotees accept this, for they know that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore they completely surrender unto Him and engage in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, devotional service of the Lord.
There are many controversies between the impersonalists and the personalists about the Lord's appearance as a human being. But if we consult Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the authoritative texts for understanding the science of Kṛṣṇa, then we can understand that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is not an ordinary man, although He appeared on this earth as an ordinary human. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, First Canto, First Chapter, when the sages headed by Śaunaka inquired about the activities of Kṛṣṇa, they said:
kṛtavān kila karmāṇi
saha rāmeṇa keśavaḥ
ati-martyāni bhagavān
gūḍhaḥ kapaṭa-māṇuṣaḥ
"Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, along with Balarāma, played like a human being, and so masked He performed many superhuman acts." (Bhāg. 1.1.20) The Lord's appearance as a man bewilders the foolish. No human being could perform the wonderful acts that Kṛṣṇa performed while He was present on this earth.
When Kṛṣṇa appeared before His father and mother, Vasudeva and Devakī, He appeared with four hands, but after the prayers of the parents He transformed Himself into an ordinary child. As stated in the Bhāgavatam (10.3.46), babhūva prākṛtaḥ śiśuḥ: He became just like an ordinary child, an ordinary human being. Now, here again it is indicated that the Lord's appearance as an ordinary human being is one of the features of His transcendental body. In the Eleventh Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā also it is stated that Arjuna prayed to see Kṛṣṇa's form of four hands (tenaiva rūpeṇa catur-bhujena).
After revealing this form, Kṛṣṇa, when petitioned by Arjuna, again assumed His original humanlike form (mānuṣaḿ rūpam). These different features of the Supreme Lord are certainly not those of an ordinary human being.
Some of those who deride Kṛṣṇa and who are infected with the Māyāvādī philosophy quote the following verse from the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (3.29.21) to prove that Kṛṣṇa is just an ordinary man. Ahaḿ sarveṣu bhūteṣu bhūtātmāvasthitaḥ sadā: "The Supreme is present in every living entity." We should better take note of this particular verse from the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas like Jīva Gosvāmī and Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura instead of following the interpretation of unauthorized persons who deride Kṛṣṇa.
Jīva Gosvāmī, commenting on this verse, says that Kṛṣṇa, in His plenary expansion as Paramātmā, is situated in the moving and the nonmoving entities as the Supersoul, so any neophyte devotee who simply gives his attention to the arcā-mūrti, the form of the Supreme Lord in the temple, and does not respect other living entities is uselessly worshiping the form of the Lord in the temple.
There are three kinds of devotees of the Lord, and the neophyte is in the lowest stage. The neophyte devotee gives more attention to the Deity in the temple than to other devotees, so Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura warns that this sort of mentality should be corrected.
A devotee should see that because Kṛṣṇa is present in everyone's heart as Paramātmā, every body is the embodiment or the temple of the Supreme Lord; so as one offers respect to the temple of the Lord, he should similarly properly respect each and every body in which the Paramātmā dwells. Everyone should therefore be given proper respect and should not be neglected.
There are also many impersonalists who deride temple worship. They say that since God is everywhere, why should one restrict himself to temple worship? But if God is everywhere, is He not in the temple or in the Deity?
Although the personalist and the impersonalist will fight with one another perpetually, a perfect devotee in Kṛṣṇa consciousness knows that although Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality, He is all-pervading, as confirmed in the Brahma-saḿhitā.
Although His personal abode is Goloka Vṛndāvana and He is always staying there, by His different manifestations of energy and by His plenary expansion He is present everywhere in all parts of the material and spiritual creation.
Krishna's form is called sat-chit-ananda vigraha, that which is eternal and eternally blissful. It never perishes or decays.
Krishna stayed in this earth for 125 years, but he always looked like a 16yrs old boy even when He had grandchildren. He is known as 'navayuvan' (ever-fresh) 'and nihseemam' (whose beauty constantly increases).
Don't ever think God's form is perishable. Krishna confirms on Bhagavad Gita
avajānanti māḿ mūḍhā
mānuṣīḿ tanum āśritam
paraḿ bhāvam ajānanto
mama bhūta-maheśvaram
Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature as the Supreme Lord of all that be.
PURPORT
From the other explanations of the previous verses in this chapter, it is clear that the Supreme Personality of Godhead, although appearing like a human being, is not a common man. The Personality of Godhead, who conducts the creation, maintenance and annihilation of the complete cosmic manifestation, cannot be a human being.
Yet there are many foolish men who consider Kṛṣṇa to be merely a powerful man and nothing more. Actually, He is the original Supreme Personality, as is confirmed in the Brahma-saḿhitā (īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ); He is the Supreme Lord.
There are many īśvaras, controllers, and one appears greater than another. In the ordinary management of affairs in the material world, we find some official or director, and above him there is a secretary, and above him a minister, and above him a president. Each of them is a controller, but one is controlled by another. In the Brahma-saḿhitā it is said that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme controller; there are many controllers undoubtedly, both in the material and spiritual world, but Kṛṣṇa is the supreme controller (īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ). and His body is sac-cid-ānanda, nonmaterial.
Material bodies cannot perform the wonderful acts described in previous verses. His body is eternal, blissful and full of knowledge. Although He is not a common man, the foolish deride Him and consider Him to be a man. His body is called here mānuṣīm because He is acting just like a man, a friend of Arjuna's, a politician involved in the Battle of Kurukṣetra.
In so many ways He is acting just like an ordinary man, but actually His body is sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1] — eternal bliss and knowledge absolute. This is confirmed in the Vedic language also. Sac-cid-ānanda-rūpāya kṛṣṇāya: "I offer my obeisances unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, who is the eternal blissful form of knowledge." (Gopāla-tāpanī Upaniṣad 1.1)
There are other descriptions in the Vedic language also. Tam ekaḿ govindam: "You are Govinda, the pleasure of the senses and the cows." Sac-cid-ānanda-vigraham: "And Your form is transcendental, full of knowledge, bliss and eternality." (Gopāla-tāpanī Upaniṣad 1.35)
Despite the transcendental qualities of Lord Kṛṣṇa's body, its full bliss and knowledge, there are many so-called scholars and commentators of Bhagavad-gītā who deride Kṛṣṇa as an ordinary man. The scholar may be born an extraordinary man due to his previous good work, but this conception of Śrī Kṛṣṇa is due to a poor fund of knowledge.
Therefore he is called mūḍha. for only foolish persons consider Kṛṣṇa to be an ordinary human being. The foolish consider Kṛṣṇa an ordinary human being because they do not know the confidential activities of the Supreme Lord and His different energies.
They do not know that Kṛṣṇa's body is a symbol of complete knowledge and bliss, that He is the proprietor of everything that be and that He can award liberation to anyone. Because they do not know that Kṛṣṇa has so many transcendental qualifications, they deride Him.
Nor do they know that the appearance of the Supreme Personality of Godhead in this material world is a manifestation of His internal energy. He is the master of the material energy. As has been explained in several places (mama māyā duratyayā), He claims that the material energy, although very powerful, is under His control, and whoever surrenders unto Him can get out of the control of this material energy.
If a soul surrendered to Kṛṣṇa can get out of the influence of material energy, then how can the Supreme Lord, who conducts the creation, maintenance and annihilation of the whole cosmic nature, have a material body like us? So this conception of Kṛṣṇa is complete foolishness.
Foolish persons, however, cannot conceive that the Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, appearing just like an ordinary man, can be the controller of all the atoms and of the gigantic manifestation of the universal form. The biggest and the minutest are beyond their conception, so they cannot imagine that a form like that of a human being can simultaneously control the infinite and the minute.
Actually although He is controlling the infinite and the finite, He is apart from all this manifestation. It is clearly stated concerning His yogam aiśvaram, His inconceivable transcendental energy, that He can control the infinite and the finite simultaneously and that He can remain aloof from them
Many years ago, the British came to India and began building a train line between Delhi and Mathura. Many simple villages on the outskirts at the time had no idea what a train looked like, so when the time had come to greet the train, the village elders would sent a young representative down to meet the train and ascertain what it is and then come back with the news of its anticipated arrival.
On the evening of its appearance, the villagers patiently and inquisitively waited in expectation and wonder of what a ‘train’ was. Eventually day turned to night and everyone in the Village became anxious and excited, knowing the train’s arrival was imminent. The fact was, no one had any inkling of what a train was. The young boy was dispatched and was told to immediately report back to the Village elder as soon as he identifies the train.
Off the young boy went in the dark and began to wait patiently. The night sky was clear and there was very little breeze in the air, he could hear the usual sounds of native animals although; even they were quite on this still moonless chilly night.
Then to the young boys surprise, out of the pitch black darkness and the still of night, he heard this thunderous extended high-pitched sound (the train whistles), being excited, he was convinced he now new what the train was. He immediately ran back to the village elders and excitedly told them,
"The train is a big sound"
Some of the elders were puzzled, but most accepted the news as final and that a train is just a sound. Still not convinced the train was just a sound, feeling puzzled, a few decided to send another young villager down to investigate this sound and if there was more to the train. The second young boy the villager elders sent down was told to wait well into the darkness of night until the sound came closer to him. Eventually, after hearing the sound many times in a mood of fear of the unknown and inquisitiveness of what a train really is, he finally saw in the distance an extremely bright light that scared him. The combination of the sound and the bright blinding light frightened him because he did not understand what he was experiencing! Being excited he rushed back to the elders proclaiming,
“The train is not only a sound but is also 'bright blinding light' as well”
Many at the village where now convinced what a train was and most where satisfied however, still a few believed there might be more to a train than an impersonal sound and light. So again they sent a third young boy to investigate. He also began to patiently wait and stay for as long as it takes. He began experiencing the sound getting louder and the light getting brighter, louder and louder the sound was becoming while at the same time the light was becoming brighter and brighter - then to his surprise, both the sound and light passed him by. To his astonishment, he discovered the source of both the sound and light, coming from the form of the train. Behind the sound and light was form, or objects like carriages that are filled with people like him, all engaging in all kinds of different activities? He ran back to the village yelling,
“The train is a form from where the sound and light emanated, where people are engaged in all kinds of activity”.
They all eventually saw the train for what it really is (Personalism) Brahman therefore is held together by form
The highest realizing is Personalism. The above painting is of Krishna and His brother Balarama whose abode Goloka-Vrindavan is beyond the impersonal light or impersonal Brahman destination of impersonalist yogis and Buddhists. There are three basic aspects of the absolute truth.
The goal of human life is to perfect ones individuality, identity, Personality by serving a bonafide Spiritual Master and again begin to re-establish ones eternal relationship with Krishna. In this way one should not foolishly attempt to extinguish ones individual identity in some nonsense ‘Its all one’ atheistic madness by only mediating on the Impersonal sound Om or the Impersonal Brahmajoyti, Nirvana or Clear Light. The complete picture of Krishna’s creation can only be realized through the favour of Krishna’s Pure Devotees.
The Jains, Buddhist, Impersonalists Yogis and Mayavadis are compared to the villager hearing the sound or only seeing the light and foolishly believing that formless impersonalism is the ‘Absolute Truth’. They are not seeing the bigger picture of what the Absolute Truth really is as described in the previous narrative about the train.
The Impersonalist Yogis, Mayavadis and Buddhists version of Brahmajyoti (Nirvana) is ONE all pervasive life force with no individuality or identity which is really atheism. Impersonalist yogis, Mayavadis and Buddhists do not believe in individual souls (jivas). They therefore believe the ultimate end of existence is to perfect their constitution by accumulating the knowledge (cit) of how to end the cycle of birth and death (karma), then merge their consciousness into the oneness of Nirvana (void or light) like rivers flow into the ocean, denying the existence of identity, individuality, personality and perpetual bodily form.
The impersonal Brahmajyoti is where individual nitya-baddha-souls (impersonalist yogis) remain dormant without having any knowledge of their original and eternal nitya-siddha bodily form. This state of suspended animation and forgetfulness is also known as Impersonalism. Even this state of inactive dreamless existence in the Brahmajoyti is temporary, although it may seem to lasts for an almost a time without end, in the face of the eternal 'prsents' in Goloka, it is only less than a moment.
They therefore cannot understand the eternal unchanging perpetual Krishna Conscious living universe (Goloka) where a blissful loving relationship exists with Krishna and His eternal associates. This Perpetual Living Universe of Lord Krishna’s is beyond the cloud cover known as the material creation or mahat-tattva. Srila Prabhupada says – “where there is light there is no darkness’.
Although the foolish rascals cannot imagine how Kṛṣṇa or God is NOT formless but has eternal form who appears just like a human being, can control the infinite and the finite, those who are pure devotees accept this, for they know that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore they completely surrender unto Him and engage in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, devotional service of the Lord.
There are many controversies between the impersonalists and the personalists about the Lord's appearance as a human being. But if we consult Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the authoritative texts for understanding the science of Kṛṣṇa, then we can understand that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is not an ordinary man, although He appeared on this earth as an ordinary human. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, First Canto, First Chapter, when the sages headed by Śaunaka inquired about the activities of Kṛṣṇa, they said:
kṛtavān kila karmāṇi
saha rāmeṇa keśavaḥ
ati-martyāni bhagavān
gūḍhaḥ kapaṭa-māṇuṣaḥ
"Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, along with Balarāma, played like a human being, and so masked He performed many superhuman acts." (Bhāg. 1.1.20) The Lord's appearance as a man bewilders the foolish. No human being could perform the wonderful acts that Kṛṣṇa performed while He was present on this earth.
When Kṛṣṇa appeared before His father and mother, Vasudeva and Devakī, He appeared with four hands, but after the prayers of the parents He transformed Himself into an ordinary child. As stated in the Bhāgavatam (10.3.46), babhūva prākṛtaḥ śiśuḥ: He became just like an ordinary child, an ordinary human being. Now, here again it is indicated that the Lord's appearance as an ordinary human being is one of the features of His transcendental body. In the Eleventh Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā also it is stated that Arjuna prayed to see Kṛṣṇa's form of four hands (tenaiva rūpeṇa catur-bhujena).
After revealing this form, Kṛṣṇa, when petitioned by Arjuna, again assumed His original humanlike form (mānuṣaḿ rūpam). These different features of the Supreme Lord are certainly not those of an ordinary human being.
Some of those who deride Kṛṣṇa and who are infected with the Māyāvādī philosophy quote the following verse from the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (3.29.21) to prove that Kṛṣṇa is just an ordinary man. Ahaḿ sarveṣu bhūteṣu bhūtātmāvasthitaḥ sadā: "The Supreme is present in every living entity." We should better take note of this particular verse from the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas like Jīva Gosvāmī and Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura instead of following the interpretation of unauthorized persons who deride Kṛṣṇa.
Jīva Gosvāmī, commenting on this verse, says that Kṛṣṇa, in His plenary expansion as Paramātmā, is situated in the moving and the nonmoving entities as the Supersoul, so any neophyte devotee who simply gives his attention to the arcā-mūrti, the form of the Supreme Lord in the temple, and does not respect other living entities is uselessly worshiping the form of the Lord in the temple.
There are three kinds of devotees of the Lord, and the neophyte is in the lowest stage. The neophyte devotee gives more attention to the Deity in the temple than to other devotees, so Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura warns that this sort of mentality should be corrected.
A devotee should see that because Kṛṣṇa is present in everyone's heart as Paramātmā, every body is the embodiment or the temple of the Supreme Lord; so as one offers respect to the temple of the Lord, he should similarly properly respect each and every body in which the Paramātmā dwells. Everyone should therefore be given proper respect and should not be neglected.
There are also many impersonalists who deride temple worship. They say that since God is everywhere, why should one restrict himself to temple worship? But if God is everywhere, is He not in the temple or in the Deity?
Although the personalist and the impersonalist will fight with one another perpetually, a perfect devotee in Kṛṣṇa consciousness knows that although Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality, He is all-pervading, as confirmed in the Brahma-saḿhitā.
Although His personal abode is Goloka Vṛndāvana and He is always staying there, by His different manifestations of energy and by His plenary expansion He is present everywhere in all parts of the material and spiritual creation.
Krishna's form is called sat-chit-ananda vigraha, that which is eternal and eternally blissful. It never perishes or decays.
Krishna stayed in this earth for 125 years, but he always looked like a 16yrs old boy even when He had grandchildren. He is known as 'navayuvan' (ever-fresh) 'and nihseemam' (whose beauty constantly increases).
Don't ever think God's form is perishable. Krishna confirms on Bhagavad Gita
avajānanti māḿ mūḍhā
mānuṣīḿ tanum āśritam
paraḿ bhāvam ajānanto
mama bhūta-maheśvaram
Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature as the Supreme Lord of all that be.
PURPORT
From the other explanations of the previous verses in this chapter, it is clear that the Supreme Personality of Godhead, although appearing like a human being, is not a common man. The Personality of Godhead, who conducts the creation, maintenance and annihilation of the complete cosmic manifestation, cannot be a human being.
Yet there are many foolish men who consider Kṛṣṇa to be merely a powerful man and nothing more. Actually, He is the original Supreme Personality, as is confirmed in the Brahma-saḿhitā (īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ); He is the Supreme Lord.
There are many īśvaras, controllers, and one appears greater than another. In the ordinary management of affairs in the material world, we find some official or director, and above him there is a secretary, and above him a minister, and above him a president. Each of them is a controller, but one is controlled by another. In the Brahma-saḿhitā it is said that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme controller; there are many controllers undoubtedly, both in the material and spiritual world, but Kṛṣṇa is the supreme controller (īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ). and His body is sac-cid-ānanda, nonmaterial.
Material bodies cannot perform the wonderful acts described in previous verses. His body is eternal, blissful and full of knowledge. Although He is not a common man, the foolish deride Him and consider Him to be a man. His body is called here mānuṣīm because He is acting just like a man, a friend of Arjuna's, a politician involved in the Battle of Kurukṣetra.
In so many ways He is acting just like an ordinary man, but actually His body is sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1] — eternal bliss and knowledge absolute. This is confirmed in the Vedic language also. Sac-cid-ānanda-rūpāya kṛṣṇāya: "I offer my obeisances unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, who is the eternal blissful form of knowledge." (Gopāla-tāpanī Upaniṣad 1.1)
There are other descriptions in the Vedic language also. Tam ekaḿ govindam: "You are Govinda, the pleasure of the senses and the cows." Sac-cid-ānanda-vigraham: "And Your form is transcendental, full of knowledge, bliss and eternality." (Gopāla-tāpanī Upaniṣad 1.35)
Despite the transcendental qualities of Lord Kṛṣṇa's body, its full bliss and knowledge, there are many so-called scholars and commentators of Bhagavad-gītā who deride Kṛṣṇa as an ordinary man. The scholar may be born an extraordinary man due to his previous good work, but this conception of Śrī Kṛṣṇa is due to a poor fund of knowledge.
Therefore he is called mūḍha. for only foolish persons consider Kṛṣṇa to be an ordinary human being. The foolish consider Kṛṣṇa an ordinary human being because they do not know the confidential activities of the Supreme Lord and His different energies.
They do not know that Kṛṣṇa's body is a symbol of complete knowledge and bliss, that He is the proprietor of everything that be and that He can award liberation to anyone. Because they do not know that Kṛṣṇa has so many transcendental qualifications, they deride Him.
Nor do they know that the appearance of the Supreme Personality of Godhead in this material world is a manifestation of His internal energy. He is the master of the material energy. As has been explained in several places (mama māyā duratyayā), He claims that the material energy, although very powerful, is under His control, and whoever surrenders unto Him can get out of the control of this material energy.
If a soul surrendered to Kṛṣṇa can get out of the influence of material energy, then how can the Supreme Lord, who conducts the creation, maintenance and annihilation of the whole cosmic nature, have a material body like us? So this conception of Kṛṣṇa is complete foolishness.
Foolish persons, however, cannot conceive that the Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, appearing just like an ordinary man, can be the controller of all the atoms and of the gigantic manifestation of the universal form. The biggest and the minutest are beyond their conception, so they cannot imagine that a form like that of a human being can simultaneously control the infinite and the minute.
Actually although He is controlling the infinite and the finite, He is apart from all this manifestation. It is clearly stated concerning His yogam aiśvaram, His inconceivable transcendental energy, that He can control the infinite and the finite simultaneously and that He can remain aloof from them
Wednesday, July 2, 2014
CYCLES OF COSMIC TIME, THE LANGUAGE OF THE GODS & MULTI-DIMENTIONAL UNIVERSES
Sanskrit is the language of the demigods and is also the language of Goloka and Vaikuntha. It is not spoken, it is sung in sweet melodies of selfless love in its pure original form in Goloka-Vrindavana.
Sanskrit is passed to the Vaikuntha planets and then to the mahat-tattva (material worlds) where celestial beings sing Sanskrit among the heavenly planets and was the prominent language in the Satya-yuga on this planet also. All the Vedas are written in Sanskrit.
Unfortunately as the ages moved to Treta-yuga then Dvapara-yuga and finally Kali-yuga, not only is Sanskrit becoming more and more ignored, very few are pure enough to chant mantras that can materialize everything from gigantic floating cities to weapons of mass destruction or brahmastras.
Also the reason why no architecture is found on this Planet past previous Vedic Societies is because the demigod like people of Satya-yuga, Treta-yuga and the first half of Dvapara-yuga lived in Palaces in the Sky and not on the earthly ground of the planet.
The Treta-yuga was the same and it was only in the ending part of the Dvapara-yuga that some of the celestial beings living in massive empires in the sky venture to the planet’s surface, where various barbaric tribes existed, rarely disturbed by the heavenly beings.
The tribes on this planet’s surface evolved up through lower species of material bodies while Celestial beings had devolved down from the material heavenly planets to Satya-yuga the Treta-yuga, then to the Dvapara-yuga and finally meeting at the cross roads of Kali-yuga where Sanskrit begins to become polluted by mundane tribal languages coming from the barbaric uncivilised languages coming from the aborigines on the surface of this planet.
So this planet is made up of those marginal living entities falling down from the material heavenly realms to the mundane material realm at the beginning of Kali-yuga, crossing the paths of those marginal living entities coming up from the evolution on this planet.
Both begin to breed with each other at the beginning of Kali-yuga, 5000 years ago. Records of this are written in the histories of all ancient civilisations.
It is also important to understand that one can never reach the material heavenly ethereal worlds in this material universe by ‘gross matters’ technological means like space crafts or ‘Star Trek’ type material imaginings of exploring the material universe.
Gross matter cannot measure, perceive, identify subtle ethereal matter, this is why ghosts (subtle ethereal MATERIAL bodies), that are actually all around us, can never be proven to exist with gross matter like cameras, Mobil phones, ex-rays, radio waves infrared, the Large Hadron Collider at CERN, the Hubble Telescope, The Electron Microscope etc
The only way is performing sacrifice or penance.
Austerities, penances, fasting, denying oneself pleasure, giving in charity, philanthropy, giving to the poor, protecting children from emotional, psychological and sexual abuse, encouraging others to reach their full potential, looking after the elderly, helping your fellow man and protecting other species of life from exploitation and murder, building hospitals and Temples and in general making the world a better place etc can elevate one to a higher material realm.
Note, even demons know that this is the only way to enter the heavenly worlds, so they also perform these ‘pious’ activities knowing that the gross biological body and its extended material technology, can NEVER take one to higher realms of reality known as the heavenly material planets. However, in Kali-yuga the recommended sacrifice to get out of the material Universes is chanting Hare Krishna and congregational chanting in every Town and Village.
Vaishnavism is following the selfless devotional goal that directs one to reawaken and regain ones original Krishna Consciousness and return home back to Godhead far beyond this material world and the many mundane heavenly worlds surrounding the Earth planet.
A Vaishnava has no interest in the gross Earthly Planets or the subtle heavenly planets in this material Universe, they are only interested in serving Krishna and His pure devotees and getting out of the entire material worlds and going back home back to Goloka-Vrindavana
The Ramayana describes a Vimana as a double-deck, circular (cylindrical) aircraft with portholes and a dome. It flew with the speed of the wind and gave forth a melodious sound.
Primitive material science of the 21st Century has barely scratched the surface that can only be understood by piety and not mundane knowledge so use you intelligence and start chanting Hare Krishna.
Two things are happening simultaneously over millions of years: the living entity is evolving or coming up through the species of life on this planets surface. The living entity is devolving or coming down from a higher celestial material realm. When the dinosaurs where on the surface of this planet, advanced biological human species had not yet evolved due to the fact that biological evolutionary on the planets surface had not reached that stage of evolution.
So where did the advanced higher material beings that existed on this planet in previous yugas, come from??
The mundane scientist today cannot even perceive the ‘subtle world’ which makes up the majority of the material universe, let alone anything spiritual which is only possible for pure devotees of Krishna to know.
The idea that Satya-yuga, Treta-yuga and the earlier parts of Dvapara-yuga, even though on this planet, existed in a higher realm of material reality, distinguished from the mundane evolution going on the surface of the planet, where the soul is evolving through bodily vessels or species until they reach the human specie, does make a lot of sense.
We find dinosaur bones but no evidence of very highly advanced societies, except a few remnants at the end of Dvapara-yuga.
The human biological body is the pinnacle of that evolution of the soul that has come up or evolved from the floor of this planet however at the same time there existed higher beings who’s bodily vessels were more ethereal with the ability is fly and live in massive cities in the sky, than biological and gross
In this way, as each age became degraded, Satya, Treta, Dvapara and Kali, the more those ethereal vessels becomes encased in biological heaver matter that extinguishes ALL their mystical powers. All species of life on this planet, leads or evolves eventually to the many human species.
These human tribes, coming up through the lower biological species or life, develop their own speculative beliefs in a God when they attain the earthly human primitive body.
On the other hand there is Knowledge (Veda) that comes down to this planet from the demigods from the celestial levels of material existence (the sub-space heavenly planets). Even still a part of the material universes, the Veda has been passed down like this to our planet.
The beginning of Kali-yuga is where the human tribes, born from coming up from the lower species and the celestial beings coming down from the heavenly planets, who followed the Vedas, crossed paths.
This was only possible due to the Dvapara-yuga being degraded into the beginning of Kali-yuga that allowed the lowly ‘planet tribes’ to invade and be eventually influenced by of the ‘more celestial beings that followed the Vedas.
This is why Sanskrit is the language of the demigods.
Therefore Satya-yuga, Treta-yuga and the most of the Dvapara, even though on this planet, must have been more celestial than earthly and existed in the sky of this planet rather than on the surface.
In other Yugas there were mystical powers, huge cities floating in the air, happening at the same time the mundane biological evolutionary process was going on the floor of the planet, that the ‘celestials Vedic universal travellers’ left alone.
This is why no evidence is found of the Satya, Treta or Dvapara-yugas (except towards the end of Dvapara, when it has virtually been degraded down to the planets surface.
Then Krishna came right at the very end of Dvapara-yuga, then after the battle at Kurukshetra, the Kali-yuga began and the invasion of the primitive animal like barbaric human tribes now had evolved enough to plunder the remanets of what was left from the Vedic culture.
In the process, some of these barbaric tribes adapted to many practises, from cooking to rituals and prayer that gradually influenced many ‘gross worldly’ primitive cultures, like tribes in the Indian region and may have even influenced Judaism though, the Vedic culture was so degraded by then, the influence was weak and scattered because most of the saintly sages had already left the planet, to escape the on coming storm of Kali-yuga.
Dr Alex Katsman, a modern 21st century scientist explains in part that at the present time there is a lot of evidence that a certain part of the mahat-tattva universe is invisible to us.
A substantial step in understanding the material universe was taken by Ronald Pearson. Pearson’s theory is based on the idea that when two kinds of primary particles are present, collisions and the exchange of energy between them cause the creation of a neuron-like structure.
This theory has opened a new field for modelling and explaining so-called “paranormal” phenomena or the subtle material world. The wave nature of our world, which is closely linked to Pearson’s theory, can be used to explain the existence of parallel worlds.
Such parallel worlds are also material (not spiritual as some yogis and saints proclaim) to the same degree as our sensed world is. This means that they have the same wave nature with the same (or similar) physical laws.
With this idea as a starting point, one can develop a physical, quantum mechanics model of the higher frequency, parallel (ethereal) world that is usually invisible for us.
Oliver Lodge apparently suggested the first reasonable explanation of the results: this invisible part of the material world operates at higher frequencies than the ones in the gross material world we are able to sense.
Many investigators support this idea. However, the theoretical basis regarding such a subtle material world is absent. Most authors think of this world as a “spirit” world but it is just a higher reality of the material world in the mahat-tattva and not a spiritual phenomenon at all.
The invisible (ethereal) part of the mahat-tattva universe has a physical structure similar to the world we sense: the matter is built from atoms, which, in turn, are constructed from nucleons and electrons, with the same elementary electrical charge. The size, structure and energy spectrum of ethereal atoms and presently detected atoms are the same.
However, these heavenly and hellish ‘ghostly’ worlds and its ‘sub-space material matter’ within the mahat-tattva perishable world can never be detected by gross material means, these worlds are only ‘seen,’ visited and ‘realized’ by pious activities.
The mundane material scientists speculate that the ethereal mahat-tattva world is invisible to us because of different “universal” constants such as the speed of light, c, and Planck’s constant, h, while their product, c×h, which determines the elementary charge, is conserved. The ethereal speed of light is much higher than the one in our world or dimension, and Planck’s constant is much smaller.
This leads to higher frequencies in the ethereal elementary particles, and in particular, photons, which realize the electromagnetic interaction between atoms. Our atoms cannot absorb ethereal photons, and the ethereal world remains invisible to us and all our gross means of investigation, which includes the Hubble telescope and the Electron microscope.
This is why with our gross material elements and machinery, we can never perceive the ethereal subtle world of matter and ethereal bodies. There apparently exists gravitational interaction between the ethereal world and our world, but this interaction is very small because of the very small masses of ethereal or ghostly bodies
The scientists miss the point with this speculation and that is their own underlining body is also ethereal and is only wearing the biological vessel. The only means to enter the ethereal sub-space world is without a biological body and that is only achieved by the direction of pious activates as found in the Vedas
Your fallen servant Gauragopala dasa
Sanskrit is the language of the demigods and is also the language of Goloka and Vaikuntha. It is not spoken, it is sung in sweet melodies of selfless love in its pure original form in Goloka-Vrindavana.
Sanskrit is passed to the Vaikuntha planets and then to the mahat-tattva (material worlds) where celestial beings sing Sanskrit among the heavenly planets and was the prominent language in the Satya-yuga on this planet also. All the Vedas are written in Sanskrit.
Unfortunately as the ages moved to Treta-yuga then Dvapara-yuga and finally Kali-yuga, not only is Sanskrit becoming more and more ignored, very few are pure enough to chant mantras that can materialize everything from gigantic floating cities to weapons of mass destruction or brahmastras.
Also the reason why no architecture is found on this Planet past previous Vedic Societies is because the demigod like people of Satya-yuga, Treta-yuga and the first half of Dvapara-yuga lived in Palaces in the Sky and not on the earthly ground of the planet.
The Treta-yuga was the same and it was only in the ending part of the Dvapara-yuga that some of the celestial beings living in massive empires in the sky venture to the planet’s surface, where various barbaric tribes existed, rarely disturbed by the heavenly beings.
The tribes on this planet’s surface evolved up through lower species of material bodies while Celestial beings had devolved down from the material heavenly planets to Satya-yuga the Treta-yuga, then to the Dvapara-yuga and finally meeting at the cross roads of Kali-yuga where Sanskrit begins to become polluted by mundane tribal languages coming from the barbaric uncivilised languages coming from the aborigines on the surface of this planet.
So this planet is made up of those marginal living entities falling down from the material heavenly realms to the mundane material realm at the beginning of Kali-yuga, crossing the paths of those marginal living entities coming up from the evolution on this planet.
Both begin to breed with each other at the beginning of Kali-yuga, 5000 years ago. Records of this are written in the histories of all ancient civilisations.
It is also important to understand that one can never reach the material heavenly ethereal worlds in this material universe by ‘gross matters’ technological means like space crafts or ‘Star Trek’ type material imaginings of exploring the material universe.
Gross matter cannot measure, perceive, identify subtle ethereal matter, this is why ghosts (subtle ethereal MATERIAL bodies), that are actually all around us, can never be proven to exist with gross matter like cameras, Mobil phones, ex-rays, radio waves infrared, the Large Hadron Collider at CERN, the Hubble Telescope, The Electron Microscope etc
The only way is performing sacrifice or penance.
Austerities, penances, fasting, denying oneself pleasure, giving in charity, philanthropy, giving to the poor, protecting children from emotional, psychological and sexual abuse, encouraging others to reach their full potential, looking after the elderly, helping your fellow man and protecting other species of life from exploitation and murder, building hospitals and Temples and in general making the world a better place etc can elevate one to a higher material realm.
Note, even demons know that this is the only way to enter the heavenly worlds, so they also perform these ‘pious’ activities knowing that the gross biological body and its extended material technology, can NEVER take one to higher realms of reality known as the heavenly material planets. However, in Kali-yuga the recommended sacrifice to get out of the material Universes is chanting Hare Krishna and congregational chanting in every Town and Village.
Vaishnavism is following the selfless devotional goal that directs one to reawaken and regain ones original Krishna Consciousness and return home back to Godhead far beyond this material world and the many mundane heavenly worlds surrounding the Earth planet.
A Vaishnava has no interest in the gross Earthly Planets or the subtle heavenly planets in this material Universe, they are only interested in serving Krishna and His pure devotees and getting out of the entire material worlds and going back home back to Goloka-Vrindavana
The Ramayana describes a Vimana as a double-deck, circular (cylindrical) aircraft with portholes and a dome. It flew with the speed of the wind and gave forth a melodious sound.
Primitive material science of the 21st Century has barely scratched the surface that can only be understood by piety and not mundane knowledge so use you intelligence and start chanting Hare Krishna.
Two things are happening simultaneously over millions of years: the living entity is evolving or coming up through the species of life on this planets surface. The living entity is devolving or coming down from a higher celestial material realm. When the dinosaurs where on the surface of this planet, advanced biological human species had not yet evolved due to the fact that biological evolutionary on the planets surface had not reached that stage of evolution.
So where did the advanced higher material beings that existed on this planet in previous yugas, come from??
The mundane scientist today cannot even perceive the ‘subtle world’ which makes up the majority of the material universe, let alone anything spiritual which is only possible for pure devotees of Krishna to know.
The idea that Satya-yuga, Treta-yuga and the earlier parts of Dvapara-yuga, even though on this planet, existed in a higher realm of material reality, distinguished from the mundane evolution going on the surface of the planet, where the soul is evolving through bodily vessels or species until they reach the human specie, does make a lot of sense.
We find dinosaur bones but no evidence of very highly advanced societies, except a few remnants at the end of Dvapara-yuga.
The human biological body is the pinnacle of that evolution of the soul that has come up or evolved from the floor of this planet however at the same time there existed higher beings who’s bodily vessels were more ethereal with the ability is fly and live in massive cities in the sky, than biological and gross
In this way, as each age became degraded, Satya, Treta, Dvapara and Kali, the more those ethereal vessels becomes encased in biological heaver matter that extinguishes ALL their mystical powers. All species of life on this planet, leads or evolves eventually to the many human species.
These human tribes, coming up through the lower biological species or life, develop their own speculative beliefs in a God when they attain the earthly human primitive body.
On the other hand there is Knowledge (Veda) that comes down to this planet from the demigods from the celestial levels of material existence (the sub-space heavenly planets). Even still a part of the material universes, the Veda has been passed down like this to our planet.
The beginning of Kali-yuga is where the human tribes, born from coming up from the lower species and the celestial beings coming down from the heavenly planets, who followed the Vedas, crossed paths.
This was only possible due to the Dvapara-yuga being degraded into the beginning of Kali-yuga that allowed the lowly ‘planet tribes’ to invade and be eventually influenced by of the ‘more celestial beings that followed the Vedas.
This is why Sanskrit is the language of the demigods.
Therefore Satya-yuga, Treta-yuga and the most of the Dvapara, even though on this planet, must have been more celestial than earthly and existed in the sky of this planet rather than on the surface.
In other Yugas there were mystical powers, huge cities floating in the air, happening at the same time the mundane biological evolutionary process was going on the floor of the planet, that the ‘celestials Vedic universal travellers’ left alone.
This is why no evidence is found of the Satya, Treta or Dvapara-yugas (except towards the end of Dvapara, when it has virtually been degraded down to the planets surface.
Then Krishna came right at the very end of Dvapara-yuga, then after the battle at Kurukshetra, the Kali-yuga began and the invasion of the primitive animal like barbaric human tribes now had evolved enough to plunder the remanets of what was left from the Vedic culture.
In the process, some of these barbaric tribes adapted to many practises, from cooking to rituals and prayer that gradually influenced many ‘gross worldly’ primitive cultures, like tribes in the Indian region and may have even influenced Judaism though, the Vedic culture was so degraded by then, the influence was weak and scattered because most of the saintly sages had already left the planet, to escape the on coming storm of Kali-yuga.
Dr Alex Katsman, a modern 21st century scientist explains in part that at the present time there is a lot of evidence that a certain part of the mahat-tattva universe is invisible to us.
A substantial step in understanding the material universe was taken by Ronald Pearson. Pearson’s theory is based on the idea that when two kinds of primary particles are present, collisions and the exchange of energy between them cause the creation of a neuron-like structure.
This theory has opened a new field for modelling and explaining so-called “paranormal” phenomena or the subtle material world. The wave nature of our world, which is closely linked to Pearson’s theory, can be used to explain the existence of parallel worlds.
Such parallel worlds are also material (not spiritual as some yogis and saints proclaim) to the same degree as our sensed world is. This means that they have the same wave nature with the same (or similar) physical laws.
With this idea as a starting point, one can develop a physical, quantum mechanics model of the higher frequency, parallel (ethereal) world that is usually invisible for us.
Oliver Lodge apparently suggested the first reasonable explanation of the results: this invisible part of the material world operates at higher frequencies than the ones in the gross material world we are able to sense.
Many investigators support this idea. However, the theoretical basis regarding such a subtle material world is absent. Most authors think of this world as a “spirit” world but it is just a higher reality of the material world in the mahat-tattva and not a spiritual phenomenon at all.
The invisible (ethereal) part of the mahat-tattva universe has a physical structure similar to the world we sense: the matter is built from atoms, which, in turn, are constructed from nucleons and electrons, with the same elementary electrical charge. The size, structure and energy spectrum of ethereal atoms and presently detected atoms are the same.
However, these heavenly and hellish ‘ghostly’ worlds and its ‘sub-space material matter’ within the mahat-tattva perishable world can never be detected by gross material means, these worlds are only ‘seen,’ visited and ‘realized’ by pious activities.
The mundane material scientists speculate that the ethereal mahat-tattva world is invisible to us because of different “universal” constants such as the speed of light, c, and Planck’s constant, h, while their product, c×h, which determines the elementary charge, is conserved. The ethereal speed of light is much higher than the one in our world or dimension, and Planck’s constant is much smaller.
This leads to higher frequencies in the ethereal elementary particles, and in particular, photons, which realize the electromagnetic interaction between atoms. Our atoms cannot absorb ethereal photons, and the ethereal world remains invisible to us and all our gross means of investigation, which includes the Hubble telescope and the Electron microscope.
This is why with our gross material elements and machinery, we can never perceive the ethereal subtle world of matter and ethereal bodies. There apparently exists gravitational interaction between the ethereal world and our world, but this interaction is very small because of the very small masses of ethereal or ghostly bodies
The scientists miss the point with this speculation and that is their own underlining body is also ethereal and is only wearing the biological vessel. The only means to enter the ethereal sub-space world is without a biological body and that is only achieved by the direction of pious activates as found in the Vedas
Your fallen servant Gauragopala dasa
The modern science and Vedic view of the universe – who is right?
The universe according to modern science
The Earth revolves around the Sun
The Earth spins on its axis
There are unlimited Suns in the universe
There are unlimited galaxies in the universe
The Universe is billions of light years in size
The Moon is 238,000 miles from Earth
The Sun is 93,000,000 miles from Earth
The Moon is a deserted baron place
The Moon reflects light from the Sun
Man has been to the Moon
The universe according to the Vedas
The Sun revolves around the Earth
The Earth does not spin on its axis
There is only one Sun in the Universe
The universe is only 4,000,000,000,000 miles, not light years, in size
The Moon is over 100,000,000 miles from Earth
The Moon is a heavenly Planet and full of life
The Moon has its own light source
Man has not been to the Moon
The distance from the center of Jambudvipa to the orbit of the sun around Manasottara Mountain is 15,750,000 yojanas according to the dimensions given in the Fifth Canto. This distance lies in the plane of Bhu-mandala and comes to 126,000,000 miles at 8 miles per yojana and 78,750,000 miles at 5 miles per yojana. Since values for the yojana ranging from 5 to 8 miles have been used in India, this distance is compatible with the modern earth-sun distance of 93,000,000 miles to the Earth.
Note - The Moon is over 100,000,000 miles from Earth is is not agreed by Sadaputa dasa who says the Surya siddhanta says it is 258,000 miles from Earth.
Mayesa Dasa explains the Sun -
In the 6th chapter of 5th canto of Srimad Bhagavatam we are given the length of the sun's chariot.
"My dear king, the carriage of the sun-god's chariot is estimated to be 3,600,000 yojanas [28,800,000 miles] long..."
Not only the sun but also other planets are described as chariots.
Matsya Purana Chapter CXXVII -
"Suta said:-I shall now relate to you about the chariots of the stars and planets...the chariot of Budha (Mercury, the son of the Moon) is brilliant and white.—1 It is drawn by ten horses..."
Matsyamahapuranam Nag Publishers
If we take what is termed chariot as the greatest distance the sun travels in a muhurta (48 minutes) then we can multiply the number of muhurtas in a day (30) by 28,800,000 which gives us 864000000. Coincidentally there are 86400 seconds in a day.In 5th canto Srimad Bhagavatam 12th chapter we find other measurements for the sun. 8,640,000,000 is the circumference of the sun at 23.5 degrees approximately.
The Formula
There is a verse in the 5th canto chapter 12 text 14 -
"As in an oil-pressing machine, the first axle is attached to a second axle, which is one-fourth as long [3,937,500 yojanas, or 31,500,000 miles]. The upper end of this second axle is attached to Dhruvaloka by a rope of wind."
We may take not that the second axle is not described as horizontal or perpendicular. It is attached to Dhruva by a circular wind
Background
The number 31,500,000 is the sun's axle.
The number 640,884,901.3 is the circumference of bhuhulasva.
The number 31,500,000 contains within it the distance from the earth (1,600,000) This is not the actual distance of anything-this number is meant to be used as part of a formula.
1,600,000 must be added to the figure 640,884,901.3
This will become clear as we proceed. Here is the formula to derive the distance and movement of the sun.
Step one - 31,500,000 / ((640,884,901.3 + 1,600,000 ) / 360 )) = 17.65022023
Step Two - 17.65022023 X 1577917828 = 2785059716...
Divide by 100 = 278505971.6 / 2 = 139252985.8
In the case of the sun we know that its circumference is 864,000,000. Subtract 139252985.8 from 864,000,000 = 724,747,014.2 Now we can draw two different kinds of diagrams to show what we have found.
We see plainly that the sun appears to move away from earth as it journeys to the south. Modern science does not know of this movement.
This would also require the sun to grow in size so that it does not appear smaller when it moves away from earth. And it would require that the clouds around the sun are water drawn there in molecular form, which will be expelled later.
This means the sun draws water for six months.
The universe according to modern science
The Earth revolves around the Sun
The Earth spins on its axis
There are unlimited Suns in the universe
There are unlimited galaxies in the universe
The Universe is billions of light years in size
The Moon is 238,000 miles from Earth
The Sun is 93,000,000 miles from Earth
The Moon is a deserted baron place
The Moon reflects light from the Sun
Man has been to the Moon
The universe according to the Vedas
The Sun revolves around the Earth
The Earth does not spin on its axis
There is only one Sun in the Universe
The universe is only 4,000,000,000,000 miles, not light years, in size
The Moon is over 100,000,000 miles from Earth
The Moon is a heavenly Planet and full of life
The Moon has its own light source
Man has not been to the Moon
The distance from the center of Jambudvipa to the orbit of the sun around Manasottara Mountain is 15,750,000 yojanas according to the dimensions given in the Fifth Canto. This distance lies in the plane of Bhu-mandala and comes to 126,000,000 miles at 8 miles per yojana and 78,750,000 miles at 5 miles per yojana. Since values for the yojana ranging from 5 to 8 miles have been used in India, this distance is compatible with the modern earth-sun distance of 93,000,000 miles to the Earth.
Note - The Moon is over 100,000,000 miles from Earth is is not agreed by Sadaputa dasa who says the Surya siddhanta says it is 258,000 miles from Earth.
Mayesa Dasa explains the Sun -
In the 6th chapter of 5th canto of Srimad Bhagavatam we are given the length of the sun's chariot.
"My dear king, the carriage of the sun-god's chariot is estimated to be 3,600,000 yojanas [28,800,000 miles] long..."
Not only the sun but also other planets are described as chariots.
Matsya Purana Chapter CXXVII -
"Suta said:-I shall now relate to you about the chariots of the stars and planets...the chariot of Budha (Mercury, the son of the Moon) is brilliant and white.—1 It is drawn by ten horses..."
Matsyamahapuranam Nag Publishers
If we take what is termed chariot as the greatest distance the sun travels in a muhurta (48 minutes) then we can multiply the number of muhurtas in a day (30) by 28,800,000 which gives us 864000000. Coincidentally there are 86400 seconds in a day.In 5th canto Srimad Bhagavatam 12th chapter we find other measurements for the sun. 8,640,000,000 is the circumference of the sun at 23.5 degrees approximately.
The Formula
There is a verse in the 5th canto chapter 12 text 14 -
"As in an oil-pressing machine, the first axle is attached to a second axle, which is one-fourth as long [3,937,500 yojanas, or 31,500,000 miles]. The upper end of this second axle is attached to Dhruvaloka by a rope of wind."
We may take not that the second axle is not described as horizontal or perpendicular. It is attached to Dhruva by a circular wind
Background
The number 31,500,000 is the sun's axle.
The number 640,884,901.3 is the circumference of bhuhulasva.
The number 31,500,000 contains within it the distance from the earth (1,600,000) This is not the actual distance of anything-this number is meant to be used as part of a formula.
1,600,000 must be added to the figure 640,884,901.3
This will become clear as we proceed. Here is the formula to derive the distance and movement of the sun.
Step one - 31,500,000 / ((640,884,901.3 + 1,600,000 ) / 360 )) = 17.65022023
Step Two - 17.65022023 X 1577917828 = 2785059716...
Divide by 100 = 278505971.6 / 2 = 139252985.8
In the case of the sun we know that its circumference is 864,000,000. Subtract 139252985.8 from 864,000,000 = 724,747,014.2 Now we can draw two different kinds of diagrams to show what we have found.
We see plainly that the sun appears to move away from earth as it journeys to the south. Modern science does not know of this movement.
This would also require the sun to grow in size so that it does not appear smaller when it moves away from earth. And it would require that the clouds around the sun are water drawn there in molecular form, which will be expelled later.
This means the sun draws water for six months.
The material world according to the Vedas
We are not seeing the full picture of the material universe with our biological eyes and its extended enhancements of telescopes and space probes that is also made of gross matter like our gross material bodies.
You cannot use gross matter to perceive the subtle or ethereal realms, that is why modern scientists cannot see the heavenly or even the hellish worlds that are also in subtle matter. Technically what we are trying to understand here is what happens after death of the biological material body and to where the subtle material vessel, that houses the soul or jiva while in the material creation, goes next.
This is all about the after life and ultimately re-establishing our eternal original relationship with Krishna beyond the gross and subtle bodies and worlds of this temporary material universe
There are 14 planetary systems in the material universe that are all different levels of conscious awareness or dimensions, some are subtle matter and there are also other dimensions of biological life.
We are limited to only one of those gross material realities that we perceive with our gross biological body in our dimension with its extensions of space probes, telescopes and the Large Hadron Collider, etc.
The 'subtle' material universe and parallel universes that are like ours as well as the ‘ethereal body’ that underlies all biological bodies, has not yet been discovered by modern science, neither has other dimensions of biological life in parallel realities yet been discovered although modern science of string theory is getting close. Although the ‘ethereal body’ can never be discovered by using ‘gross’ matter on our biological plane
In other words you cannot see the full picture of the material universe with biological matter or with Kali yuga limited science that is restricted to this present day lower conscious dimension, only by developing higher realms of consciousness and NOT through mundane telescopes can one perceive the material universe in its full potential, a devotee sees through the eyes of sastra and ones self awareness
We are not seeing the full picture of the material universe with our biological eyes and its extended enhancements of telescopes and space probes that is also made of gross matter like our gross material bodies.
You cannot use gross matter to perceive the subtle or ethereal realms, that is why modern scientists cannot see the heavenly or even the hellish worlds that are also in subtle matter. Technically what we are trying to understand here is what happens after death of the biological material body and to where the subtle material vessel, that houses the soul or jiva while in the material creation, goes next.
This is all about the after life and ultimately re-establishing our eternal original relationship with Krishna beyond the gross and subtle bodies and worlds of this temporary material universe
There are 14 planetary systems in the material universe that are all different levels of conscious awareness or dimensions, some are subtle matter and there are also other dimensions of biological life.
We are limited to only one of those gross material realities that we perceive with our gross biological body in our dimension with its extensions of space probes, telescopes and the Large Hadron Collider, etc.
The 'subtle' material universe and parallel universes that are like ours as well as the ‘ethereal body’ that underlies all biological bodies, has not yet been discovered by modern science, neither has other dimensions of biological life in parallel realities yet been discovered although modern science of string theory is getting close. Although the ‘ethereal body’ can never be discovered by using ‘gross’ matter on our biological plane
In other words you cannot see the full picture of the material universe with biological matter or with Kali yuga limited science that is restricted to this present day lower conscious dimension, only by developing higher realms of consciousness and NOT through mundane telescopes can one perceive the material universe in its full potential, a devotee sees through the eyes of sastra and ones self awareness
Tuesday, May 27, 2014
The great secret of the cosmos is controlling sex desire, by doing so you become very powerful
Sexual activity and contemplation rivets one to the bodily concept, even in marriage one is meant to have sex for the procreation of children, semen is very powerful substance and the only way to retain it is by engaging the mind in higher conscious activities of Krishna Consciousness which is difficult however, if achieved and one controls the mind from being controlled by sexual thoughts, then one will become very powerful, if one can do that and refrain from passing semen then ones energy increases and one becomes extremely strong minded.
Only the great preachers are truly celibate, unfortunately there are many pretenders in the garb of a saintly men out there and their laziness and impotency in old age is due to the addiction of passing semen during their youth, only a lusty fool contemplates marriage after 55 years of age.
The true platform of celibacy cannot be achieved artificially either, one must elevate their consciousness by controlling the mind and the process of marriage is part of that however, even in marriage one is suppose to have sex only once a month, but really, who is doing that? Very few in today's world
So without even knowing their full potential, most men restrict themselves due to addiction to sex life not realizing that by having total control over it, one taps into a reservoir of enormous strength and clarity of mind.
One of Mayas duties is to make sure you remain weak and under her control which means addiction to the sexual feeling that binds and rivets one to their material body and therefore makes you plan everything around that ‘feeling’ or addiction. Maya will not let anyone disturb Krishna so she tests everyone who tries to approach Him through a pure devotee by testing one and that test is mostly sexual attraction in its variety of ways.
Sex desire cannot be suppressed either, if you are not attracted to a women or attracted to women and cannot get one, then it will pop up as masturbation, homosex or even paedophilia that has plagued most religious traditions today who artificially attempt celibacy, in this way Maya uses sex to keep one down there bewildered and enamoured by her material energy, so far down there that one does not realize the power of sex desire or how fallen and restricted by Maya they really are.
All problems in life stem from uncontrolled sex desire that causes bewilderment and then acting in ways that disturbs others and oneself never realizing the true mystical qualities of practicing celibacy
Maya also even makes you believe it a taboo subject that no one likes talking about because in truth its too close to ones inner secrets and true polluted nature of attachment to this material body. It is those inner 'personal' secrets that remain 'unspeakable' that keep one ignorant of how amazingly powerful sex desire is and if totally controlled will change you life in ways you could not even imagine
Controlling sex desire can make you materially powerful or Spiritually powerful, the choice is yours, many great demons practiced celibacy and also become very powerful. The point is, for spiritual advancement it is necessary otherwise it is impossible to advance
Marriage life is part of the process of Spiritual life and bringing children into this world is the purpose of sex life, that is also controlling sex life because one is using it for what it is meant for and if sex life IS performed only once a month as recommended by scripture, then ones married life also becomes very strong and one will have many sons however, at age of 55 or 60 it is recommended both you and your wife give up family life because what is the purpose of sex life at that advanced age if your wife cannot bear children?
In this way both of you should dedicate the remainder of ones life fully to God and become in harmony with nature and the universe, in this way avoiding the cycle of birth and death again and instead return back home back to Krishna.
Lust and angry thoughts are a great impediment and I have experienced those destructive forces all my life, now in my old age they have diminished but my stupidity in my youth haunts me and all I can do is hold on to the chanting of Hare Krishna with everything I have left.
My advice to young people is do not give in to lusty desires, hold on to Krishna's feet, eventually the intensity will pass, find a good service to occupy the mind.
When you are old like me you realize that the fear you once had of missing out on something while you are still young is just a trick of maya, such fear makes you try to enjoy the senses as much as you can, however, such an illusion just keeps you riveted in your senses thinking you are your material body.
The fact is, eventually old age will force you to give up the desire for sex life and for those attached, that can be scary, the itch of sexual pleasure is all binding force of the material world, better to control it while you are still young and dovetail that energy. Some fools after the age of 55 seek marriage because of it, it is better to dedicate ones old age to scriptures, chanting and preaching
Sexual activity and contemplation rivets one to the bodily concept, even in marriage one is meant to have sex for the procreation of children, semen is very powerful substance and the only way to retain it is by engaging the mind in higher conscious activities of Krishna Consciousness which is difficult however, if achieved and one controls the mind from being controlled by sexual thoughts, then one will become very powerful, if one can do that and refrain from passing semen then ones energy increases and one becomes extremely strong minded.
Only the great preachers are truly celibate, unfortunately there are many pretenders in the garb of a saintly men out there and their laziness and impotency in old age is due to the addiction of passing semen during their youth, only a lusty fool contemplates marriage after 55 years of age.
The true platform of celibacy cannot be achieved artificially either, one must elevate their consciousness by controlling the mind and the process of marriage is part of that however, even in marriage one is suppose to have sex only once a month, but really, who is doing that? Very few in today's world
So without even knowing their full potential, most men restrict themselves due to addiction to sex life not realizing that by having total control over it, one taps into a reservoir of enormous strength and clarity of mind.
One of Mayas duties is to make sure you remain weak and under her control which means addiction to the sexual feeling that binds and rivets one to their material body and therefore makes you plan everything around that ‘feeling’ or addiction. Maya will not let anyone disturb Krishna so she tests everyone who tries to approach Him through a pure devotee by testing one and that test is mostly sexual attraction in its variety of ways.
Sex desire cannot be suppressed either, if you are not attracted to a women or attracted to women and cannot get one, then it will pop up as masturbation, homosex or even paedophilia that has plagued most religious traditions today who artificially attempt celibacy, in this way Maya uses sex to keep one down there bewildered and enamoured by her material energy, so far down there that one does not realize the power of sex desire or how fallen and restricted by Maya they really are.
All problems in life stem from uncontrolled sex desire that causes bewilderment and then acting in ways that disturbs others and oneself never realizing the true mystical qualities of practicing celibacy
Maya also even makes you believe it a taboo subject that no one likes talking about because in truth its too close to ones inner secrets and true polluted nature of attachment to this material body. It is those inner 'personal' secrets that remain 'unspeakable' that keep one ignorant of how amazingly powerful sex desire is and if totally controlled will change you life in ways you could not even imagine
Controlling sex desire can make you materially powerful or Spiritually powerful, the choice is yours, many great demons practiced celibacy and also become very powerful. The point is, for spiritual advancement it is necessary otherwise it is impossible to advance
Marriage life is part of the process of Spiritual life and bringing children into this world is the purpose of sex life, that is also controlling sex life because one is using it for what it is meant for and if sex life IS performed only once a month as recommended by scripture, then ones married life also becomes very strong and one will have many sons however, at age of 55 or 60 it is recommended both you and your wife give up family life because what is the purpose of sex life at that advanced age if your wife cannot bear children?
In this way both of you should dedicate the remainder of ones life fully to God and become in harmony with nature and the universe, in this way avoiding the cycle of birth and death again and instead return back home back to Krishna.
Lust and angry thoughts are a great impediment and I have experienced those destructive forces all my life, now in my old age they have diminished but my stupidity in my youth haunts me and all I can do is hold on to the chanting of Hare Krishna with everything I have left.
My advice to young people is do not give in to lusty desires, hold on to Krishna's feet, eventually the intensity will pass, find a good service to occupy the mind.
When you are old like me you realize that the fear you once had of missing out on something while you are still young is just a trick of maya, such fear makes you try to enjoy the senses as much as you can, however, such an illusion just keeps you riveted in your senses thinking you are your material body.
The fact is, eventually old age will force you to give up the desire for sex life and for those attached, that can be scary, the itch of sexual pleasure is all binding force of the material world, better to control it while you are still young and dovetail that energy. Some fools after the age of 55 seek marriage because of it, it is better to dedicate ones old age to scriptures, chanting and preaching
The complete understanding of the origin of the soul from Vaikuntha
The complete understanding of the origin of the soul from Vaikuntha.
To say we, the marginal living entities, came from an impersonal origin, is not the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.
Letter to: Revatinandana — Los Angeles 13 June, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - 'The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahma is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness.
Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.
The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he is fallen down.
God has many different energies. Jiva is one, Matter is one, the consorts of the Lord are one. Only the jiva tattvas can fall from Goloka Vrndavana neither sakti tattva or Vishnu tattva can fall as they are more divine expansions of the Lord
The real meaning of Tatastha s’akti
Tatastha s’akti simply means we have the ability to choose this side of being with Krishna or that side being in the mahat-tattva material creation, no-one comes from there because it is not a place.
There are 160 names for the jiva-tattva like baddha--jiva, siddha-jiva, tatastha-jiva, jiva-tattva, jiva-s'akti, jiva bhutah etc that each describe the marginal living entity in its particular possition.
For example tatastha s’akti or jiva-tatastha refers to the jiva-tattva's sovereignty as an individual living being THAT HAS FREE WILL AND THE ABILITY TO CHOOSE its destiny.
NO jiva-tattva comes from tatastha-s'akti because THEY are ALREADY tatastha-s'akti PERPETUALLY! even in Goloka-Vrindavana from where they have originated.
Tatastha-s'akti is NOT some place in the cosmos; it is simply a description of the jiva-tattva (marginal living entity) nature pertaining to free will and the ability to choose.
Tatastha s’akti simply means we have the ability to choose this side or that side.
The marginal living entity therefore is always also known a tatastha- s’akti in Vaikuntha, Goloka and the material creation, meaning there is always choice and free-will to love Krishna or reject KrishnaTaṭasthā-śakti is the spiritual but marginal energy of God known as the jiva tattva. Although the jivas are eternal, it is their position as marginal energy - between lower material and higher spiritual energy.
In other words, taṭasthā-śakti or the jiva tattva is between external (material) energy and internal (also eternal spiritual) energy of Krishna Svayam Bhagavan.
In Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya, Verse 6.160 are enumerated these three energies:
The spiritual potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead also appears in three phases -- internal, marginal and external.
Another verse (Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya, 8.152) gives more information
In other words, these are all potencies of God -- internal, external and marginal. But the internal potency is the Lord's personal energy of sakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas and stands over the other two. The jiva tattvas or marginal energy can choose to enter Vaikuntha or the material universes.
So jivatma, living being is never equal to Supreme Godhead and also always subordinate to Him. Above the jiva tattva, also known as the tatastha shakti stands Internal energy of Krishna of shakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas, the jiva tattvas originate from that realm of the Spiritual Sky known as Vaikuntha as well
The Spiritual Sky is the entire existence that has no beginning and has always existed. This means there is wall to wall, so to speak, of jiva tattvas, sakti tattvas and Visnu tattvas, The jiva tattvas or Krishna's marginal potency however are ALL accompanied by a Vishnu tattva expansion of Krishna in the mahat tattva where as in Vaikuntha they are more personally with the Lord.
This part of the Spiritual Sky is covered by a cloud of matter and within the basic material atoms of matter also exists a fallen jiva tattva accompanied by the Paramattama or Kshirodakashayi Vishnu.
Sarva gatah means life is everywhere in both the Spiritual Sky known as Vaikuntha and the material aspect of the Spiritual Sky called the mahat tattva or material creation. There is always 'wall to wall' jiva tattvas in the material creation however, 'most' have chosen to be ' inactive' within each material atom, they are 'covered' and are in the a dormant state that is known as the impersonal aspect of the brahmajyoti effulgence.
Some do not understand that the entire Spiritual Sky IS all pervasive individual units of life. and the only difference in the mahat tattva is that same 'life' is covered by matter, so the sheer numbers of jiva tattvas should not surprise anyone as all matter is covering that all-pervasive life force aspect of the Spiritual Sky.
Also some ask why do so many fall? Well, it is less than 10% that enters the mahat tattva covered 25% of the Spiritual Sky and one should not be bewildered by numbers as the Spiritual Sky is vast and 'inconceivable large', in other words, how can one understand 75% and 25% of 'eternity' that is beginningless and endless?
So our part of the Spiritual Sky is covered by the mahat tattva. The entire Spiritual Sky IS the effulgence of Krishna's Body and 1/4 is covered by the mahat tattva and we, the jiva tattvas, are in that effulgence that is covered by the mahat tattva or material creation that makes up less than 10% of all jiva tattvas or Krishna’s marginal potency.
Most jiva tattvas are active in Krishna Consciousness in Vaikuntha while some, less than 10% have chosen to be either ‘inactive’ within each atom, or ‘active’ in a material mahat tattva temporary vessel within the material cloud that covers this aspect of the Spiritual Sky
It is important to understand that ALL marginal living entities or jiva tattvas ‘originally’ come from Goloka-Vrndavana and are ALWAYS in a perpetual state of uniqueness’ meaning they are forever fresh and youthful in their nitya-siddha body that is forever 'locked' within the 'eternal presence' of Krishna Consciosness if they 'choose' to remember their original state.
Srila Prabhupada – “No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purport) What does this really mean?
This clearly means the 'jiva tattvas' nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY ‘DREAM’, ‘THINK’ OR ‘IMAGINE’ WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go.
To say we, the marginal living entities, came from an impersonal origin, is not the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.
Letter to: Revatinandana — Los Angeles 13 June, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - 'The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahma is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness.
Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.
The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he is fallen down.
It does not matter where a living entity stays. In the material world also there are different stages of living conditions, and to remain in the brahman effulgence is also another phase of that fallen condition.
Just like in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated that conditioned souls by their pious activities are elevated to the higher planetary system, but as soon as the stock of pious activities is finished he again comes down on the earthly planet.
Similarly those who are elevated beyond the planetary system to the brahma effulgence, they are also prone to fall down as much as a living entity from the higher planetary system.
As such those who are thinking that they are liberated by being situated in brahman effulgence are described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam as impurely intelligent.
In other words, they are actually not liberated, and because they are not actually liberated they again come down to the material world as much as a living entity elevated to the higher planetary system comes down to this earthly planet.
So we do not accept anyone elevated to the brahman effulgence as actually liberated.”
Srila Prabhupada was very clear on this subject - “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport” Letter to Madhudvisa Swam 1972
Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna album
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.”. July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, you are not conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)
Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha Krsna Bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977
Devotee - “Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back”.
Srila Prabhupada - “No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, “Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,” I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become. . . .”
Srila Prabhupada - “You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this Maya. This is called Maya”.
Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972
Sakti is not exactly Visnu Tattva even though sakti tattva is also called sakti-Vishnu-tattva. The correct understanding is that all of Krsna’s energies are under the broad category of sakti-tattva. To make it simple there are only two categories.
1. Saktiman or God the controller of the energy
2. Sakti the energy of God are eternally occupied with their service to God, such expansions have only the desire to please Krishna or His Vishnu expansion, they can never be covered by Maya and their concept of free will and independance is only to please God as indirect expansion of Godhead.
Just like in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated that conditioned souls by their pious activities are elevated to the higher planetary system, but as soon as the stock of pious activities is finished he again comes down on the earthly planet.
Similarly those who are elevated beyond the planetary system to the brahma effulgence, they are also prone to fall down as much as a living entity from the higher planetary system.
As such those who are thinking that they are liberated by being situated in brahman effulgence are described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam as impurely intelligent.
In other words, they are actually not liberated, and because they are not actually liberated they again come down to the material world as much as a living entity elevated to the higher planetary system comes down to this earthly planet.
So we do not accept anyone elevated to the brahman effulgence as actually liberated.”
Srila Prabhupada was very clear on this subject - “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport” Letter to Madhudvisa Swam 1972
Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna album
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.”. July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, you are not conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)
Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha Krsna Bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977
Devotee - “Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back”.
Srila Prabhupada - “No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, “Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,” I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become. . . .”
Srila Prabhupada - “You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this Maya. This is called Maya”.
Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972
Sakti is not exactly Visnu Tattva even though sakti tattva is also called sakti-Vishnu-tattva. The correct understanding is that all of Krsna’s energies are under the broad category of sakti-tattva. To make it simple there are only two categories.
1. Saktiman or God the controller of the energy
2. Sakti the energy of God are eternally occupied with their service to God, such expansions have only the desire to please Krishna or His Vishnu expansion, they can never be covered by Maya and their concept of free will and independance is only to please God as indirect expansion of Godhead.
Vaikuntha is made up of many sakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas as gopis, gopas and many many others, there is also jiva tattvas playing many rolls in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrndavana as well.
Sakti tattva nitya siddhas can never fall down and the jiva tattvas can NEVER become sakti tattva. The jiva tattvas nitya siddhas like us on the other hand can 'choose' to forget God and enter the mahat tattva creation of Maha Visnu as nitya baddha and think they are a god and do their own thing.
God has many different energies. Jiva is one, Matter is one, the consorts of the Lord are one. Only the jiva tattvas can fall from Goloka Vrndavana neither sakti tattva or Vishnu tattva can fall as they are more divine expansions of the Lord
The real meaning of Tatastha s’akti
Tatastha s’akti simply means we have the ability to choose this side of being with Krishna or that side being in the mahat-tattva material creation, no-one comes from there because it is not a place.
There are 160 names for the jiva-tattva like baddha--jiva, siddha-jiva, tatastha-jiva, jiva-tattva, jiva-s'akti, jiva bhutah etc that each describe the marginal living entity in its particular possition.
For example tatastha s’akti or jiva-tatastha refers to the jiva-tattva's sovereignty as an individual living being THAT HAS FREE WILL AND THE ABILITY TO CHOOSE its destiny.
NO jiva-tattva comes from tatastha-s'akti because THEY are ALREADY tatastha-s'akti PERPETUALLY! even in Goloka-Vrindavana from where they have originated.
Tatastha-s'akti is NOT some place in the cosmos; it is simply a description of the jiva-tattva (marginal living entity) nature pertaining to free will and the ability to choose.
Tatastha s’akti simply means we have the ability to choose this side or that side.
The marginal living entity therefore is always also known a tatastha- s’akti in Vaikuntha, Goloka and the material creation, meaning there is always choice and free-will to love Krishna or reject KrishnaTaṭasthā-śakti is the spiritual but marginal energy of God known as the jiva tattva. Although the jivas are eternal, it is their position as marginal energy - between lower material and higher spiritual energy.
In other words, taṭasthā-śakti or the jiva tattva is between external (material) energy and internal (also eternal spiritual) energy of Krishna Svayam Bhagavan.
In Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya, Verse 6.160 are enumerated these three energies:
The spiritual potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead also appears in three phases -- internal, marginal and external.
Another verse (Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya, 8.152) gives more information
In other words, these are all potencies of God -- internal, external and marginal. But the internal potency is the Lord's personal energy of sakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas and stands over the other two. The jiva tattvas or marginal energy can choose to enter Vaikuntha or the material universes.
So jivatma, living being is never equal to Supreme Godhead and also always subordinate to Him. Above the jiva tattva, also known as the tatastha shakti stands Internal energy of Krishna of shakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas, the jiva tattvas originate from that realm of the Spiritual Sky known as Vaikuntha as well
The Spiritual Sky is the entire existence that has no beginning and has always existed. This means there is wall to wall, so to speak, of jiva tattvas, sakti tattvas and Visnu tattvas, The jiva tattvas or Krishna's marginal potency however are ALL accompanied by a Vishnu tattva expansion of Krishna in the mahat tattva where as in Vaikuntha they are more personally with the Lord.
This part of the Spiritual Sky is covered by a cloud of matter and within the basic material atoms of matter also exists a fallen jiva tattva accompanied by the Paramattama or Kshirodakashayi Vishnu.
Sarva gatah means life is everywhere in both the Spiritual Sky known as Vaikuntha and the material aspect of the Spiritual Sky called the mahat tattva or material creation. There is always 'wall to wall' jiva tattvas in the material creation however, 'most' have chosen to be ' inactive' within each material atom, they are 'covered' and are in the a dormant state that is known as the impersonal aspect of the brahmajyoti effulgence.
Some do not understand that the entire Spiritual Sky IS all pervasive individual units of life. and the only difference in the mahat tattva is that same 'life' is covered by matter, so the sheer numbers of jiva tattvas should not surprise anyone as all matter is covering that all-pervasive life force aspect of the Spiritual Sky.
Also some ask why do so many fall? Well, it is less than 10% that enters the mahat tattva covered 25% of the Spiritual Sky and one should not be bewildered by numbers as the Spiritual Sky is vast and 'inconceivable large', in other words, how can one understand 75% and 25% of 'eternity' that is beginningless and endless?
So our part of the Spiritual Sky is covered by the mahat tattva. The entire Spiritual Sky IS the effulgence of Krishna's Body and 1/4 is covered by the mahat tattva and we, the jiva tattvas, are in that effulgence that is covered by the mahat tattva or material creation that makes up less than 10% of all jiva tattvas or Krishna’s marginal potency.
Most jiva tattvas are active in Krishna Consciousness in Vaikuntha while some, less than 10% have chosen to be either ‘inactive’ within each atom, or ‘active’ in a material mahat tattva temporary vessel within the material cloud that covers this aspect of the Spiritual Sky
It is important to understand that ALL marginal living entities or jiva tattvas ‘originally’ come from Goloka-Vrndavana and are ALWAYS in a perpetual state of uniqueness’ meaning they are forever fresh and youthful in their nitya-siddha body that is forever 'locked' within the 'eternal presence' of Krishna Consciosness if they 'choose' to remember their original state.
Srila Prabhupada – “No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purport) What does this really mean?
This clearly means the 'jiva tattvas' nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY ‘DREAM’, ‘THINK’ OR ‘IMAGINE’ WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go.
Such an inferior non-Krishna conscious facsimile of the self is called the nitya-baddha sub-conscious self.
It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms or vessels created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.
Such a spiritual body is ‘eternally’ endowed with a two-armed form like Krishna’s but can also appear as a four armed form in the Vaikunthas in the mood of servitude, or further appear as a flower, drop of rain, chair, etc regardless, the original form of the soul is two armed just like Krishna’s.
What makes things confusing to several is that some marginal living entities, who have manifested as their inferior secondary baddha-jiva state in the material creation, can stay in the material creation or mahat-tattva for what seems to be an almost eternity!
This means many baddha-jiva souls enter the Body of Maha-Vishnu or the impersonal Brahmajyoti at the dissolution of each mahat-tattva creation because of not being Krishna Conscious to awaken to their true nitya-siddha body in Goloka.
In other words, this entrance into the dormant impersonal Brahmajyoti condition only happens if they are not qualified to again remember their ‘full potential awareness’ of being a nitya-siddha perpetual Krishna Conscious body in Goloka.
In this way, the baddha-jiva sub-conscious state starts off as a non-Krishna conscious selfishly active dream (or thought)
Therefore it is only the secondary or inferior baddha-jiva that is a formless state of consciousness that is sometimes referred to as particles of spirit, spiritual atoms, sparks or molecules (All referring to the baddha-jiva and NOT the nitya-siddha body due to always being a Krishna Conscious bodily form).
This baddha-jiva condition can only experience selfish desires through material bodily vessel provided by Maha-Vishnu from within His mahat-tattva creation that clothes the secondary baddha-jiva state with subtle (ethereal) and gross (biological) material containers or bodily vessels of the mahat-tattva.
Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel” Los Angeles, June 23, 1975
Trivikrama asks Srila Prabhupada - “You were just saying that we are not fallen. Actually this is an illusion thinking that we are fallen. Yet I read …
Srila Prabhupada: “The same example. In dream I am not attacked by the tiger, but I am …thinking, “Oh, tiger is there - It is simply dreaming condition”.
Trivikrama: But so many Vaishnavas are praying…
Srila Prabhupada - “So as soon as you understand that “This is not… I am not in contact with tiger, it is all a dream,” then you are delivered. Similarly, as soon as you understand “All this material condition of life we are simply dreaming; I am actually servant of Krsna,” then you are liberated. That is Krsna conscious. If you keep in Krsna consciousness, that “I am eternal servant of Krsna,” then you are liberated. . . .
Trivikrama: This feeling that we have, that we are fallen, that we are very fallen…
Srila Prabhupada - “That is also illusion. That is also illusion. You are fallen means you have got some certain desires except service of Krsna. Therefore the conclusion is that if you keep yourself tightly in Krsna’s service, there is no question of falling down or there is no question of Maya. You see?” Los Angeles, June 23, 1975
In this lecture Srila Prabhupada is very clear. Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krsna in the spiritual world (As nitya-siddha).
Such a spiritual body is ‘eternally’ endowed with a two-armed form like Krishna’s but can also appear as a four armed form in the Vaikunthas in the mood of servitude, or further appear as a flower, drop of rain, chair, etc regardless, the original form of the soul is two armed just like Krishna’s.
What makes things confusing to several is that some marginal living entities, who have manifested as their inferior secondary baddha-jiva state in the material creation, can stay in the material creation or mahat-tattva for what seems to be an almost eternity!
This means many baddha-jiva souls enter the Body of Maha-Vishnu or the impersonal Brahmajyoti at the dissolution of each mahat-tattva creation because of not being Krishna Conscious to awaken to their true nitya-siddha body in Goloka.
In other words, this entrance into the dormant impersonal Brahmajyoti condition only happens if they are not qualified to again remember their ‘full potential awareness’ of being a nitya-siddha perpetual Krishna Conscious body in Goloka.
In this way, the baddha-jiva sub-conscious state starts off as a non-Krishna conscious selfishly active dream (or thought)
Therefore it is only the secondary or inferior baddha-jiva that is a formless state of consciousness that is sometimes referred to as particles of spirit, spiritual atoms, sparks or molecules (All referring to the baddha-jiva and NOT the nitya-siddha body due to always being a Krishna Conscious bodily form).
This baddha-jiva condition can only experience selfish desires through material bodily vessel provided by Maha-Vishnu from within His mahat-tattva creation that clothes the secondary baddha-jiva state with subtle (ethereal) and gross (biological) material containers or bodily vessels of the mahat-tattva.
Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel” Los Angeles, June 23, 1975
Trivikrama asks Srila Prabhupada - “You were just saying that we are not fallen. Actually this is an illusion thinking that we are fallen. Yet I read …
Srila Prabhupada: “The same example. In dream I am not attacked by the tiger, but I am …thinking, “Oh, tiger is there - It is simply dreaming condition”.
Trivikrama: But so many Vaishnavas are praying…
Srila Prabhupada - “So as soon as you understand that “This is not… I am not in contact with tiger, it is all a dream,” then you are delivered. Similarly, as soon as you understand “All this material condition of life we are simply dreaming; I am actually servant of Krsna,” then you are liberated. That is Krsna conscious. If you keep in Krsna consciousness, that “I am eternal servant of Krsna,” then you are liberated. . . .
Trivikrama: This feeling that we have, that we are fallen, that we are very fallen…
Srila Prabhupada - “That is also illusion. That is also illusion. You are fallen means you have got some certain desires except service of Krsna. Therefore the conclusion is that if you keep yourself tightly in Krsna’s service, there is no question of falling down or there is no question of Maya. You see?” Los Angeles, June 23, 1975
In this lecture Srila Prabhupada is very clear. Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krsna in the spiritual world (As nitya-siddha).
But when we want to take Krsna’s position, we put ourselves into a dreaming state (As nitya-baddha) that can only exist in the mahat-tattva, the impersonal Brahmajyoti or the Body of Maha-Vishnu.
In this dreaming nitya-baddha condition we forget our actual position and are thus free to act out our desire to become the supreme enjoyer.
This state of forgetfulness and dreaming is characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world. But Srila Prabhupada explains that in reality we are not fallen. We are simply in a dreaming nitya-baddha state.
Srila Prabhupada says that this is a very important point and asks the devotees to carefully think about it.
This concept that we are not really fallen offers an explanation for the statements that “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” We do not fall. We simply forget our original nitya-siddha relationship of service to Krsna. Some might argue that we have eternally forgotten Krsna. But that is not supported by Srila Prabhupada’s purports
Srila Prabhupada - “Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krishna says, yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.” Los Angeles, June 23, 1975
The people who claim we have originated from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or a ‘clear sheet of consciousness’ sometimes alleges that those confronted with the choice of Krishna or the mahat-tattva are conditioned souls and cannot be engaged in the Lord’s personal association.
They further assert that those who have attained the personal association of the Lord never again misuse their free will. In most cases that is correct because the marginal living entity chooses to do so. For there to be genuine love or service, there must be free-will other wise we are simply mindless porn’s in a collective of monotonous bliss.
Further more, many do not understand the true facts of how we actually did come down from Goloka due to miss using that free will. We certainly did not come down as our nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body, which is perpetually there in Krishna’s pastimes fixed within that eternal presence where nothing perishes
The understanding of the word ‘dream’ in regards to the marginal living entity falling from Goloka is significant in Srila Prabhupada’s preaching yet has nothing to do with ’sleeping’ anywhere; it’s all to do with time.
The proper understanding is this. It’s all to do with the ‘eternal presence’ of the imperishable Vaikuntha’s and Goloka that has no past or future, compared to the ‘past, present and future’ of the perishable material creation of Maha-Vishnu.
The marginal living entity, due to free will and choice, falls out of synch with the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka or Vaikuntha simply caused by their non-Krishna conscious mistaken desires.
In this dreaming nitya-baddha condition we forget our actual position and are thus free to act out our desire to become the supreme enjoyer.
This state of forgetfulness and dreaming is characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world. But Srila Prabhupada explains that in reality we are not fallen. We are simply in a dreaming nitya-baddha state.
Srila Prabhupada says that this is a very important point and asks the devotees to carefully think about it.
This concept that we are not really fallen offers an explanation for the statements that “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” We do not fall. We simply forget our original nitya-siddha relationship of service to Krsna. Some might argue that we have eternally forgotten Krsna. But that is not supported by Srila Prabhupada’s purports
Srila Prabhupada - “Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krishna says, yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.” Los Angeles, June 23, 1975
The people who claim we have originated from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or a ‘clear sheet of consciousness’ sometimes alleges that those confronted with the choice of Krishna or the mahat-tattva are conditioned souls and cannot be engaged in the Lord’s personal association.
They further assert that those who have attained the personal association of the Lord never again misuse their free will. In most cases that is correct because the marginal living entity chooses to do so. For there to be genuine love or service, there must be free-will other wise we are simply mindless porn’s in a collective of monotonous bliss.
Further more, many do not understand the true facts of how we actually did come down from Goloka due to miss using that free will. We certainly did not come down as our nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body, which is perpetually there in Krishna’s pastimes fixed within that eternal presence where nothing perishes
The understanding of the word ‘dream’ in regards to the marginal living entity falling from Goloka is significant in Srila Prabhupada’s preaching yet has nothing to do with ’sleeping’ anywhere; it’s all to do with time.
The proper understanding is this. It’s all to do with the ‘eternal presence’ of the imperishable Vaikuntha’s and Goloka that has no past or future, compared to the ‘past, present and future’ of the perishable material creation of Maha-Vishnu.
The marginal living entity, due to free will and choice, falls out of synch with the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka or Vaikuntha simply caused by their non-Krishna conscious mistaken desires.
0This also means they fall our of synch with their own perpetual nitya-siddha body and create an alternative consciousness known as the nitya-baddha secondary self. It is this inferior consciousness that enters the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu.
Such selfish desires place the marginal living entity outside of Goloka as their nitya-baddha lower self that enters the mahat-tattva (material creation).
Now it is important to understand that while they are in the mahat-tattva, no time passes in Goloka-Vrndavana because of the ‘eternal presence’ of Krsna Consciousness there. Now that technically means their nitya-siddha body is NEVER fallen but rather it is their ‘consciousness’ that is fallen
Lord Krishna states that our constitutional nature is that all marginal living beings are eternal servants of the Lord. So to say that ‘conditioned’ souls have never been ‘unconditioned’ in Goloka-Vrndavana is incorrect.
When the marginal living entity is in a conditioned state (nitya-baddha), that doesn’t take away their eternal absolute nature as a nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna who is forever fixed within the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka.
Such selfish desires place the marginal living entity outside of Goloka as their nitya-baddha lower self that enters the mahat-tattva (material creation).
Now it is important to understand that while they are in the mahat-tattva, no time passes in Goloka-Vrndavana because of the ‘eternal presence’ of Krsna Consciousness there. Now that technically means their nitya-siddha body is NEVER fallen but rather it is their ‘consciousness’ that is fallen
Lord Krishna states that our constitutional nature is that all marginal living beings are eternal servants of the Lord. So to say that ‘conditioned’ souls have never been ‘unconditioned’ in Goloka-Vrndavana is incorrect.
When the marginal living entity is in a conditioned state (nitya-baddha), that doesn’t take away their eternal absolute nature as a nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna who is forever fixed within the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka.
When a dark cloud covers the Sun, everything becomes dark however, it is not the sun that goes dark, it is the covering that makes it appear the Sun is dark.
Similarly, the nitya-siddha body of the marginal living entity is always in Goloka-Vrndavana but due to the selfish desires of the marginal living entity that cover the marginal living entities ‘awareness’ of their nitya-siddha body, it appears that the darkness or the nitya-baddha secondary consciousness has replaced the nitya-siddha body, but that is NOT so, one’s nitya-siddha body is ALWAYS in Goloka even when one dreams they are nitya-baddha in the mahat-tattva or material creation.
The rebellious marginal living entity simply becomes overshadowed with the concept of past, present and future instigated by free-will, choice and their absolute smallness putting them out of sync with the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka where their nitya-siddha body is perpetually situated.
As a result, they have now adopted the relative perception of existence that places them within the mahat-tattva’s bodily vessels, which are all the dreams of the sleeping Maha-Vishnu.
As a result of this choice, the marginal living entity is no longer ‘aware’ of Goloka or their nitya-siddha body in Goloka that is perpetually fixed there due to the eternal presence of Krishna consciousness as already explained and are now nitya baddha trapped in the mahat-tattva of Maha-Vishnu
As in our case in the material world, we are presently ‘eternally conditioned’ (nitya-baddha) because long, long, long, long ago we made that choice to forget Krishna and simultaneously the ‘awareness’ of our nitya-siddha (eternally liberated) body we serve Krishna as.
And when again we achieve liberation from this material world due to the mercy of pure devotee, we will enter Goloka AGAIN by the method of becoming ‘aware’ of our genuine nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body or in simple terms, we begin to distinguish who we really our that separates us from the MATERIAL DREAM state or nitya-baddha fallen self centred consciousness.
Alan Ginsberg - “How did the material covering begin?”
Srila Prabhupada - “Begin?”
Alan Ginsberg - “As the material shadow. How did we fall into that?
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes. Yes. That is very natural. . . Because jiva, although para-sakti, he has got independence. So when he wants to imitate Krishna”.
Alan Ginsberg - “. How did we fall into that?”
Srila Prabhupada - “In the spiritual world, Krishna is the enjoyer. And all others, they are enjoyed–predominator and the predominating. The Lord is the predominating, so there is no disagreement. There they know, ‘The Lord is predominator; we have to serve.’ When this service attitude is impaired, that–’Why serve Krishna? Why not ourself?’–that is Maya”. - Room conversation with Allen Ginsberg in Columbus, OH 5-14-69
Devotee - “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krsna, we have a perfect relationship with Krsna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we re already serving Krsna?
Srila Prabhupada - “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.” And as soon as you associate with the material nature, then you fall down.
Devotee - “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…
Srila Prabhupada - “Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire…” Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 13.22-24 — Melbourne, June 25, 1974
Devotee - “You commented that everyone has a natural desire to have relationship with Krsna, but that because…
Srila Prabhupada - “Not desire, but he is already established”.
Devotee - ” Established.
Srila Prabhupada - “That is covered. Just like your relationship with somebody as father and son, it is established. You might have forgot, you might have left your home since a very, very long time, and you do not know who is your father, but there is some father. That is a fact. Nobody can say, “No. I, I have, I am born without father.” Nobody can say. One has father, but it may be that he has forgotten his father.
So this Krsna consciousness movement is that we have got some relationship with the Supreme Lord. That we have now forgotten. So it is not the question of desire. It is there. You don’t desire to become one’s son, you are already one’s son.
You simply do not know. Similarly, your relationship with Krsna is there, every one of us, but I have forgotten; I do not know. This Krsna consciousness practice will revive your relationship in what way, in which way you are related with Krsna. It is not that you have to desire.
No. It is already there. You have to desire only how to revive it, that’s all. That is Krsna consciousness. It is not an artificial thing. Just like we are establishing some relationship with somebody or you are my father or you are my wife, you are my husband. No. It is already there. Simply we have to find out.
That will be revealed when you are perfect in Krsna consciousness, brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati, you are freed from all material contamination, and you are perfectly situated in devotional service; it will be at once revealed: “Oh, you are related to Krsna.” You will have to wait for that. Bhagavad-gita Los Angeles, November 23, 1968
Paramahamsa - “But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return.
Srila Prabhupada - “There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is”.
Paramahamsa - “If we want”.
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”.
Paramahamsa - “So we can come to the spiritual world and return?”
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”.
Paramahamsa - “Fall down?”
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go.” Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness.
It’s not so difficult to ‘realize’ that long, long, long, long ago we were with Krishna as our permanent real nitya-siddha body but have now chosen not only to forget Krishna, but also forget that nitya-siddha body within the realm of perpetual originality called Vaikuntha
When a devotee regains his/hers original Krsna Consciousness and re-establishes ‘the awareness’ of their nitya-siddha-svarupa body in Goloka, which is never lost while dreaming as nitya-baddha in the perishable creation, does not mean that one is only restricted by one particular svarupa (body) for eternity in Krishna’s pastimes
Ones eternal body is not limited to any particular nitya-siddha body they have there.
Also there are examples of devotees participating in the pastimes of the Lord in more than one svarupa at the same time, therefore our eternal rasa can change in Goloka; even though our nitya siddha or rasa body is perpetually situated in Goloka as a two armed form in it’s originality as Srila Prabhupada confirms -
Devotee - “Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?”
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes, human form. God is also human form. “Man is made after the shape of God.” So God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs”. Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.1-4 - Melbourne, May 20, 1975
So unlike the material bodies in the mahat-tattva that are temporary decaying vessels the nitya-baddha consciousness moves around in, we ARE our body (nitya-siddha) in Goloka though, that body can transform because our eternal svarupa is interchangeable.
For example, ones svarupa can change to a four-armed form in the Vaikuntha Planets or a different form in Lord Caitanya’s pastimes in the top most platform in Goloka that He sometimes brings to the material world as pastimes, although very rare.
In simple terms, one has the ability to ’shape shift’ into any form to please Krsna Caitanya and can also be in many places in various forms at the same time.
Caitanya Caritamrita is full of such examples. Most are Vishnu tattva expansions although there are many jiva tattva’s like Naradha Muni as well. No jiva tattva in Lord Caitanya Lila is restricted only to their two-armed perpetual svarupa-nitya-siddha body
Srivasa Thakura is known as Narada Muni, he also has his svarupa manifestation in Goloka. Therefore, by the elegance of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Narada Muni is also simultaneously situated in the top most regions of Goloka where Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s endless pastimes are going on.
Further more, Srila Prabhupada has explained that Narada Muni enters the material world often disguised in different bodily vessels to preach Krishna Consciousness.
Who can understand the multidimensional full potential abilities of the liberated nitya-siddha souls?
Srila Prabhupada mentions in the 4th Canto Chapter 28 of the Srimad Bhagavatam that Krishna says - “Don’t you remember me? I was your very close friend, but you gave up My Company and came to this material world”.
When asked directly about whether the jiva was ever in the spiritual world, Srila Prabhupada mentions in the 4th Canto Chapter 28 of the Srimad Bhagavatam that Krishna (in the form of a Brahmana) says to King Puranjana (in his next life, as the daughter of Kind Vidarbha) “Don’t you remember me? I was your very close friend, but you gave up My Company and came to this material world”.
Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.52: The Brahmana inquired as follows: Who are you? Whose wife or daughter are you? Who is the man laying here? It appears you are lamenting for this dead body. Don’t you recognize Me? I am your eternal friend. You may remember that many times in the past you have consulted Me.
Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53: The Brahmana continued: My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can’t you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world.
Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.54: My dear gentle friend, both you and I are exactly like two swans. We live together in the same heart, which is just like the Mānasa Lake. Although we have been living together for many thousands of years, we are still far away from our original home.
Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.55: My dear friend, you are now My very same friend. Since you left Me, you have become more and more materialistic, and not seeing Me, you have been travelling in different forms throughout this material world, which was created by some woman.
In understanding Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 7 Chapter 1 Text 35 Purport one has to first understand that Jaya and Vijaya caused an offence to Brahmanas and as a result were given two choices to atone from their offence.
They could either take three births in the material world as demons or they could take seven births as devotees. They chose to be in the material body as powerful demons so they could get back to Vaikuntha quicker. After all they were trapped in bodies that were under the control of past, present and future.
Now they come from Vaikuntha under Krishna’s compassion meaning they were given the opportunity to engage in Krishna’s pastimes while in the material world as Demons, so when their offence was atoned they were immediately re-established in their eternal original svarupa in Vaikuntha back within the eternal presence of Krishna Consciousness.
It must be understood they new they made a mistake by offending Brahmanas; at no point did they give up Krishna as we have done.
In other parts of Srila Prabhupada’s writings, he calls their offence as a fall down, this is why in the purport of the Srimad Bhagavatam 7.1.35 Srila Prabhupada says “This very significant question would be difficult for an ordinary person to answer, but Narada Muni, being an authority, could answer it”.
Now those who are associates of the Lord of course do not leave Goloka for the material dream or fall down AS LONG AS THEY CHOOSE TO SERVE KRISHNA however, there are those, less than 10% of Krishna jiva-tattva associates in Vaikuntha and Goloka, who DO choose to come to this material world and forget Krishna, they are only interested in their own exploits and want nothing to do with Krishna.
That can include any jiva-tattva (marginal) associate of Krishnas in Goloka who no longer choose to be an associate, any jiva-tattva can leave Goloka for the material creation, but most choose not to make that mistake. The important point is THERE IS ALWAYS CHOICE.
They therefore think, dream or imagine they fall - actually no falls from Vaikuntha because their nitya-siddha body is perpetually fixed there within the eternal presence of Krishna’s pastimes.
As the CC states all marginal living entities are originally nitya-siddha and only the Vishnu-tattvas never forget their position in Krishna lila. Some come to the material creation in Krishna’s lila while others come to for fill their own selfish dreams.
As there are no killing of demons in Vaikuntha, Krishna plays this role as His Vishnu expansion in the material creation with all his nitya siddha jiva-tattvas and Vishnu-tattva associates however, there are other jiva-tattva souls who choose to leave Goloka simply because of their choice not to be with Krishna, THERE IS NO MATERIAL CAUSE FOR THEM FORGETTING GOLOKA OR VAIKUNTHA OTHER THAN FREE WILL AND CHOICE.
Srila Prabhupada makes it clear in the fourth canto of Srimad Bhagavatam and numerous lectures, letters and morning walks we originate from Goloka.
Srila Prabhupada explains we have marginal independence as part of our nature as marginal living entities. We can misuse such independence even in Goloka or Vaikuntha with out any material cause, it simply happens because it is there in our own fundamental spiritual nature as independent (marginal) living beings.
This means a small minority, less than 10% of jiva-tattva nitya-siddha souls in Vaikuntha or Goloka choose to leave. For this purpose Krishna, via His Maha-Vishnu expansion, creates the mahat-tattva (material creation) for them.
The marginal living entities full potential of loving selfless devotion to Krishna and His loving devotees is based on individuality, independence and the right to choose; we never loose that right to choose, not even in Vaikuntha. Surrender to Krishna and His pure devotees do not mean to become mindless porns in Vaikuntha and ‘yes’ men/women to Krishna.
No, everything in Vaikuntha is based on reciprocal loving service even if it is a fact that we surrender selflessly and unconditionally. The fact is that’s how Krishna also treats us. Having free will and choice gives us the opportunity to give ourselves in our own unique way. That choice is always there even in Goloka or Vaikuntha and must be there if genuine love is to exist.
It is not that we first have to be contacted by the modes of material nature to fall down from Goloka or Vaikuntha. It’s all to do with a combination of choice and the sheer smallness of the marginal living entity.
And even then due to that smallness and choice, we only ‘think, imagine or dream’ we are fallen that we become fallen. The fact is we never fall; our nitya-siddha body never leaves Goloka
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could be come the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking”. July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence”.
Srila Prabhupada - “That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Regarding to how a nitya siddha in Goloka can fall down to nitya baddha in the material world, Srila Prabhupada explains we have marginal independence as part of our nature in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrndavana.
We can misuse such independence even in Goloka or Vaikuntha with out any material cause, it simply happens because it is there in our own fundamental spiritual nature as independent (marginal) living beings.
Maya is not the cause of ones fall down from Vaikuntha, that is not possible she only exists in the mahat-tattva. The cause of ones fall down is ones own independent desires of self importance based on free will and choice.
One simply chooses to no longer serve Krishna as their nitya siddha body. As a result, they eventually forget their nitya-siddha body and leave Vaikuntha and enter the mahat tattva as their nitya-baddha secondary self that is the sub-conscious non-Krishna conscious condition of the marginal living entity.
it should of been made clear that the entire universes of Krishna and His Vishnu-tattvas, jiva-tattvas, Goloka-Vrndavana, Vaikuntha’s and the mahat-tattva (material creation) and the impersonal Brahmajyoti are all collectively the Brahmajyoti or everything that is.
The Vaikuntha’s were never created so the word ‘creation’ cannot be used for Goloka-Vrndavana and the Vaikuntha realm, nor can it be used to explain the marginal living entities (jiva-tattvas) or Krishna and His unlimited Vishnu-tattva expansions.
The word creation can only apply to the mahat-tattva material ‘creation’ because it has a beginning and end.
The ‘impersonal Brahmajyoti’ or the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky is actually a very small minority of souls in their baddha-jiva inferior feature that becomes established in that ‘impersonal’ dormant state due to the influence of being covered and frustrated within the mahat-tattva that souls fall to and are covered (material vessels that belong to the mahat-tattva) by when they choose to no longer serve Krsna in Goloka or Vaikuntha.
In other words, when souls become fed up with the material creation of changing material bodies or vessels, they can escape this cycle of birth and death by either realizing their full potential nitya-siddha body that is always in Goloka even while they ‘imagine’ themselves to be in the mahat-tattva, or they can cease to desire bodily activity (after much difficulty of casting off those subtle and gross material bodies) and enter an inactive dormant state of consciousness that is within and part of each marginal living entities capacity of expression, in this case inactivity.
The individual baddha-jivas who enter this ‘consciousness’ are expressing the impersonal side of their nature and is known as their impersonal Brahmajyoti feature. In other words the impersonal Brahmajyoti is the dormant inactive characteristic of the ‘baddha’-jiva
So where this painting is misleading is the impersonal Brahmajyoti or the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, is NOT some place within the over all universes but is rather a state of inactive consciousness ‘desired’ by the baddha-jiva aspect of the marginal living entity. (That ultimately is also only a temporary condition because the inherent nature of all marginal living entities is ‘activity’
Keep in mind the baddha-jiva consciousness is the sub-conscious or rebellious state of the soul that ignores ones Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha body or the full expression and potential that is the make up of every of every marginal living entity
Those who believe the jiva originates from some inactive state or from the Vraja River or the Body of Maha-Vishnu are actually propagating Impersonalism. The real facts are that all marginal living entities come from the pastimes of Krishna by their own foolish choice. This is the teaching of Srila Prabhupada.
Darkness cannot be left over in the presents of light because light dissipates all darkness. In other words while there is light (nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body), darkness (nitya-baddha condition) does not exist.
This means that when one’s ‘awareness’ is AGAIN situated as the eternal presence of their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the nitya-baddha sub-conscious darkness in the material creation no longer exists.
Tatastha-sakti is just another name of the jiva tattva or marginal living entity and those who are sakti tattva are actually expansions of Vishnu tattva or Krishna's internal potency, they are NEVER jiva tattva and of course can never fall down like the jiva tattva's can if they choose. In the Caitanya Caritamrita so many associates of Lord Caitanya are sakti tattva or expansions of Krishna. In the Pancha tattva only one soul is jiva tattva
Radharani is Vishnu tattva calling her nitya siddha is not right because she can never be nitya baddha - it's even silly to suggest this, Vishnu-sakti-tattva are also expansions of Krishna and it would be wrong to also call them nitya siddha even though some schools of thought do in the Gaudiya math
understanding lila can be difficult, at least for me. Vishnu expansions in another form doing austerity to attain a position as Krishna's conjectural lover is very confidential knowledge and such lilas are plenty in the Caitanya Caritamrita where so many Vishnu tattvas and Vishnu-sakti-tattv, that are also Vishnu-tattvas, seemingly did austerity to be with Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda -- it's all in the name of lila, that is what the whole universe is for as far as Krishna is concerned. Krishna is just having fun with himself and taking the jiva tattvas along for the blissful ride
So this only means there are two meanings to nitya siddha - Although the nitya-siddha expansions of Krsna always remain with Krsna - and then this - Srila Prabhupada - “The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha” Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.107 New York, July 13, 1976
Lord Krishna states that our constitutional nature is that all marginal living beings are eternal servants of the Lord. So to say that ‘conditioned’ souls have never been ‘unconditioned’ in Goloka-Vrndavana is incorrect.
When a marginal living being are in a conditioned state (nitya-baddha) that doesn’t take away their eternal absolute nature as a nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna who is forever fixed within the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka Vrndavana: the rebellious marginal living entity simply becomes overshadowed with the concept of past, present and future instigated by free-will and choice putting them out of sync with the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka which is their natural home
As a result, they have now adopted the relative perception of existence that places them within the mahat-tattva’s bodily vessels, which are all the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. The jiva tattvas as their nitya baddha condition ‘go through’ Maha Vishnu and are not from Him to enter the mahat-tattva or material creation. This is important to understand.
As a result of this choice of ‘falling down’ from Goloka, the marginal living entity is no longer ‘aware’ of Goloka or their nitya-siddha body that is perpetually situated in the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka. So technically the living entities nitya siddha body never falls down, only their consciousness does as a ‘dream condition’ that enters the ‘dreams’ of Maha Vishnu.
As in our case in the material world, we are presently ‘eternally conditioned’ (nitya-baddha) because long, long, long, long ago we made that choice to forget Krishna and simultaneously the ‘awareness’ of our nitya-siddha (eternally liberated) body we serve Krishna as. And when again we achieve liberation from this material world due to the mercy of pure devotee, we will enter Goloka AGAIN by the method of becoming ‘aware’ of our genuine nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body that is always there in Goloka and become ‘eternally liberated’ or in simple terms, we wake up from the MATERIAL DREAM.
No jiva tattvas originate from Maha Vishnu, they may go through him but they certainly do not originate from him, they also do not originate from a dormant state known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti or impersonal Brahman either
Srila Prabhupada – “Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition”. - Letter, June 13, 1970.
From Srila Prabhupada’s teachings we learn that the dormant impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, where souls are in an individual slumber, is also a fallen state that one has entered previously from the mahat-tattva (material creation) Therefore no souls ‘originate’ from the dormant characteristic of the Brahmajyoti, that is not possible because ALL living entities originate directly from the pastimes of Lord Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana.
The technical term for the jiva-soul that enters the mahat-tattva material creation and then the impersonal Brahmajyoti after becoming fed up with material existence is the baddha-jiva (The secondary condition of the marginal living entity, the original condition of the jiva tattva is nitya-siddha in Goloka) The baddha-jiva state in the impersonal brahmajyoti is a dreamless dream or inactive condition of consciousness that 'hovers' in the impersonal Brahmajyoti and exists in that state ONLY while the baddha-jiva is 'inactive' in the impersonal Brahmajyoti that is also a temporary condition of conscious awareness, eventually they fall down from there to again take material vessels in the material world or mahat tattva.
I’m aware how some schools of thought in Hinduism like some in the Gaudiya Math incorrectly claim that the some jiva-souls originally emanate from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, which, they claim, is growing with a constant march of new jiva-souls. They further incorrectly claim that within the dormant characteristics of the Brahmajyoti, the immovability of these inactive jiva-souls is ‘somehow’ disturbed and movement begins. They then claim that from non-differentiation, separation begins. From a bare expanse of standardized consciousness, individual conscious components grow. Srila Prabhupada rejected the nonsense idea that souls ‘originate’ from the impersonal Brahmajyoti from a dormant state of consciousness.
To start with, the jiva souls are never created because they have always been. Actually our perpetual origins are directly from Krishna’s pastimes in Goloka because originally EVERY JIVA SOUL is a selfless nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna within His pastimes.
We do not have a problem with Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s Books but we DO have problem with MIS-INTERPRETATIONS from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s books by most in the Gaudiya math.
In fact, Srila Prabhupada admonished against taking any outside instructions.
From Srila Prabhupada’s Books, letters, morning walks and classes does Prabhupada instruct us, he is the final word on ALL past Acharays, only from Prabhupada we learn everything they preach and all our comments, essays and preaching must be based on Srila Prabhupada’s teachings above all else.
Even in understanding Vedic Cosmology, Prabhupada found many Vedic Scholar’s translations totally useless so what ever we find must be in line with Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, he is giving ‘Sastra’ he learnt from his Guru, he is a true honest selfless ‘Sadhu’ and he is a bonafide ‘Guru’ who has done more to preach Krishna Consciousness than all previous Acharays combined.
Srila Prabhupada’s teachings ARE the combination of all the Acharays and his quotes, comments and mention of them is all we need to know. There is a life time just reading Prabhupada’s Books and hearing or reading all his lectures and morning walks, there is no need to associate with other sangas other than ISKCON
Srila Prabhupada - “Whatever is to be learned of the teachings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura can be learned from our books. There is no need whatsoever for any outside instruction” Letter 73-12-25: Gurukrpa, Yasodanandana
Acyutananda – “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns. He can return?”
Srila Prabhupada – “If he likes he can return”.
Guru-kripa – “How is it that one can become envious of Krishna?”
Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976)
Only a minority fall down from Goloka and Vaikuntha and for them the mahat-tattva is created. No jiva souls originate from an impersonal source or from some cleat sheet of consciousness as some foolishly believe and teach.
Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?”
Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”.”. Los Angeles, June 23, 1975
In this way, the 25% of the Spiritual Sky that is material only caters for less than 10% of the jiva tattvas who choose to leave Vaikuntha for the mahat tattva or material creation, more than 90% of jiva tattvas always ‘choose’ to remain in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana.
Of course the many Sakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas expansions of Krishna never fall down and many, many individuals in Goloka Vrndavan are in that category however, we are jiva tattva and can choose to remain in Vaikuntha or leave for the mahat tattva creation of Maha Vishnu
Acyutananda: 'But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.””
Prabhupada: But if he likes, he can return.
Acyutananda: He can return
Prabhupada: That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that.… That misuse is the cause of our falldown. Room Conversation February 19, 1976 Mayapur
Rather than placating the fall position, Srila Prabhupada refutes the no-fall position. We can fall even after returning back home, back to godhead.
From Srila Prabhupada’s Books, letters, morning walks and classes does Prabhupada instruct us, he is the final word on ALL past Acharays, only from Prabhupada we learn everything they preach and all our comments, essays and preaching must be based on Srila Prabhupada’s teachings above all else.
What ever we find must be in line with Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, he is giving ‘Sastra’ he learnt from his Guru, he is a true honest selfless ‘Sadhu’ and he is a bonafide ‘Guru’ who has done more to preach Krishna Consciousness than all previous Acharays combined.
Srila Prabhupada’s teachings ARE the combination of all the Acharays and his quotes, comments and mention of them is all we need to know. There is a life time just reading Prabhupada’s Books and hearing or reading all his lectures and morning walks, there is no need to associate with other sangas other than ISKCON
Ones fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana is due to free will and choice not maya, there is no material cause for ones fall down from Goloka Vrndavana
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could be come the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence”.
Srila Prabhupada - “That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? ”So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Srila Prabhupada was very clear on this subject - “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport” Letter to Madhudvisa Swam 1972
Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna album
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.”. July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, you are not conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)Srila Prabhupada - “You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this Maya. This is called Maya”.
Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972
We have to realize that being marginal means free will, even in Goloka. Without it how can there be genuine Love?
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura - “As long as the jiva takes full shelter of the Supreme Lord he remains a resident of Vaikuntha. But when his innate spiritual knowledge of the Lord is covered by forgetfulness, he is placed outside the transcendental realm.” (Caitanya Siksamrita, Sanmod-ana Bhasya-sloka-1)
Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to God or Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Homburg, Germany, June 22, 1974
This seems to be pretty clear according to Srila Prabhupada, who rejects the 'impersonal Brahmajyoti origin that claims that the marginal living entity is originally in a dormant state from where one can use their free will to choose either Vaikuntha or the mahat-tattva.
Similarly, the nitya-siddha body of the marginal living entity is always in Goloka-Vrndavana but due to the selfish desires of the marginal living entity that cover the marginal living entities ‘awareness’ of their nitya-siddha body, it appears that the darkness or the nitya-baddha secondary consciousness has replaced the nitya-siddha body, but that is NOT so, one’s nitya-siddha body is ALWAYS in Goloka even when one dreams they are nitya-baddha in the mahat-tattva or material creation.
The rebellious marginal living entity simply becomes overshadowed with the concept of past, present and future instigated by free-will, choice and their absolute smallness putting them out of sync with the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka where their nitya-siddha body is perpetually situated.
As a result, they have now adopted the relative perception of existence that places them within the mahat-tattva’s bodily vessels, which are all the dreams of the sleeping Maha-Vishnu.
As a result of this choice, the marginal living entity is no longer ‘aware’ of Goloka or their nitya-siddha body in Goloka that is perpetually fixed there due to the eternal presence of Krishna consciousness as already explained and are now nitya baddha trapped in the mahat-tattva of Maha-Vishnu
As in our case in the material world, we are presently ‘eternally conditioned’ (nitya-baddha) because long, long, long, long ago we made that choice to forget Krishna and simultaneously the ‘awareness’ of our nitya-siddha (eternally liberated) body we serve Krishna as.
And when again we achieve liberation from this material world due to the mercy of pure devotee, we will enter Goloka AGAIN by the method of becoming ‘aware’ of our genuine nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body or in simple terms, we begin to distinguish who we really our that separates us from the MATERIAL DREAM state or nitya-baddha fallen self centred consciousness.
Alan Ginsberg - “How did the material covering begin?”
Srila Prabhupada - “Begin?”
Alan Ginsberg - “As the material shadow. How did we fall into that?
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes. Yes. That is very natural. . . Because jiva, although para-sakti, he has got independence. So when he wants to imitate Krishna”.
Alan Ginsberg - “. How did we fall into that?”
Srila Prabhupada - “In the spiritual world, Krishna is the enjoyer. And all others, they are enjoyed–predominator and the predominating. The Lord is the predominating, so there is no disagreement. There they know, ‘The Lord is predominator; we have to serve.’ When this service attitude is impaired, that–’Why serve Krishna? Why not ourself?’–that is Maya”. - Room conversation with Allen Ginsberg in Columbus, OH 5-14-69
Devotee - “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krsna, we have a perfect relationship with Krsna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we re already serving Krsna?
Srila Prabhupada - “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.” And as soon as you associate with the material nature, then you fall down.
Devotee - “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…
Srila Prabhupada - “Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire…” Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 13.22-24 — Melbourne, June 25, 1974
Devotee - “You commented that everyone has a natural desire to have relationship with Krsna, but that because…
Srila Prabhupada - “Not desire, but he is already established”.
Devotee - ” Established.
Srila Prabhupada - “That is covered. Just like your relationship with somebody as father and son, it is established. You might have forgot, you might have left your home since a very, very long time, and you do not know who is your father, but there is some father. That is a fact. Nobody can say, “No. I, I have, I am born without father.” Nobody can say. One has father, but it may be that he has forgotten his father.
So this Krsna consciousness movement is that we have got some relationship with the Supreme Lord. That we have now forgotten. So it is not the question of desire. It is there. You don’t desire to become one’s son, you are already one’s son.
You simply do not know. Similarly, your relationship with Krsna is there, every one of us, but I have forgotten; I do not know. This Krsna consciousness practice will revive your relationship in what way, in which way you are related with Krsna. It is not that you have to desire.
No. It is already there. You have to desire only how to revive it, that’s all. That is Krsna consciousness. It is not an artificial thing. Just like we are establishing some relationship with somebody or you are my father or you are my wife, you are my husband. No. It is already there. Simply we have to find out.
That will be revealed when you are perfect in Krsna consciousness, brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati, you are freed from all material contamination, and you are perfectly situated in devotional service; it will be at once revealed: “Oh, you are related to Krsna.” You will have to wait for that. Bhagavad-gita Los Angeles, November 23, 1968
Paramahamsa - “But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return.
Srila Prabhupada - “There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is”.
Paramahamsa - “If we want”.
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”.
Paramahamsa - “So we can come to the spiritual world and return?”
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”.
Paramahamsa - “Fall down?”
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go.” Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness.
It’s not so difficult to ‘realize’ that long, long, long, long ago we were with Krishna as our permanent real nitya-siddha body but have now chosen not only to forget Krishna, but also forget that nitya-siddha body within the realm of perpetual originality called Vaikuntha
When a devotee regains his/hers original Krsna Consciousness and re-establishes ‘the awareness’ of their nitya-siddha-svarupa body in Goloka, which is never lost while dreaming as nitya-baddha in the perishable creation, does not mean that one is only restricted by one particular svarupa (body) for eternity in Krishna’s pastimes
Ones eternal body is not limited to any particular nitya-siddha body they have there.
Also there are examples of devotees participating in the pastimes of the Lord in more than one svarupa at the same time, therefore our eternal rasa can change in Goloka; even though our nitya siddha or rasa body is perpetually situated in Goloka as a two armed form in it’s originality as Srila Prabhupada confirms -
Devotee - “Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?”
Srila Prabhupada - “Yes, human form. God is also human form. “Man is made after the shape of God.” So God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs”. Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.1-4 - Melbourne, May 20, 1975
So unlike the material bodies in the mahat-tattva that are temporary decaying vessels the nitya-baddha consciousness moves around in, we ARE our body (nitya-siddha) in Goloka though, that body can transform because our eternal svarupa is interchangeable.
For example, ones svarupa can change to a four-armed form in the Vaikuntha Planets or a different form in Lord Caitanya’s pastimes in the top most platform in Goloka that He sometimes brings to the material world as pastimes, although very rare.
In simple terms, one has the ability to ’shape shift’ into any form to please Krsna Caitanya and can also be in many places in various forms at the same time.
Caitanya Caritamrita is full of such examples. Most are Vishnu tattva expansions although there are many jiva tattva’s like Naradha Muni as well. No jiva tattva in Lord Caitanya Lila is restricted only to their two-armed perpetual svarupa-nitya-siddha body
Srivasa Thakura is known as Narada Muni, he also has his svarupa manifestation in Goloka. Therefore, by the elegance of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Narada Muni is also simultaneously situated in the top most regions of Goloka where Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s endless pastimes are going on.
Further more, Srila Prabhupada has explained that Narada Muni enters the material world often disguised in different bodily vessels to preach Krishna Consciousness.
Who can understand the multidimensional full potential abilities of the liberated nitya-siddha souls?
Srila Prabhupada mentions in the 4th Canto Chapter 28 of the Srimad Bhagavatam that Krishna says - “Don’t you remember me? I was your very close friend, but you gave up My Company and came to this material world”.
When asked directly about whether the jiva was ever in the spiritual world, Srila Prabhupada mentions in the 4th Canto Chapter 28 of the Srimad Bhagavatam that Krishna (in the form of a Brahmana) says to King Puranjana (in his next life, as the daughter of Kind Vidarbha) “Don’t you remember me? I was your very close friend, but you gave up My Company and came to this material world”.
Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.52: The Brahmana inquired as follows: Who are you? Whose wife or daughter are you? Who is the man laying here? It appears you are lamenting for this dead body. Don’t you recognize Me? I am your eternal friend. You may remember that many times in the past you have consulted Me.
Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53: The Brahmana continued: My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can’t you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world.
Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.54: My dear gentle friend, both you and I are exactly like two swans. We live together in the same heart, which is just like the Mānasa Lake. Although we have been living together for many thousands of years, we are still far away from our original home.
Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.55: My dear friend, you are now My very same friend. Since you left Me, you have become more and more materialistic, and not seeing Me, you have been travelling in different forms throughout this material world, which was created by some woman.
In understanding Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 7 Chapter 1 Text 35 Purport one has to first understand that Jaya and Vijaya caused an offence to Brahmanas and as a result were given two choices to atone from their offence.
They could either take three births in the material world as demons or they could take seven births as devotees. They chose to be in the material body as powerful demons so they could get back to Vaikuntha quicker. After all they were trapped in bodies that were under the control of past, present and future.
Now they come from Vaikuntha under Krishna’s compassion meaning they were given the opportunity to engage in Krishna’s pastimes while in the material world as Demons, so when their offence was atoned they were immediately re-established in their eternal original svarupa in Vaikuntha back within the eternal presence of Krishna Consciousness.
It must be understood they new they made a mistake by offending Brahmanas; at no point did they give up Krishna as we have done.
In other parts of Srila Prabhupada’s writings, he calls their offence as a fall down, this is why in the purport of the Srimad Bhagavatam 7.1.35 Srila Prabhupada says “This very significant question would be difficult for an ordinary person to answer, but Narada Muni, being an authority, could answer it”.
Now those who are associates of the Lord of course do not leave Goloka for the material dream or fall down AS LONG AS THEY CHOOSE TO SERVE KRISHNA however, there are those, less than 10% of Krishna jiva-tattva associates in Vaikuntha and Goloka, who DO choose to come to this material world and forget Krishna, they are only interested in their own exploits and want nothing to do with Krishna.
That can include any jiva-tattva (marginal) associate of Krishnas in Goloka who no longer choose to be an associate, any jiva-tattva can leave Goloka for the material creation, but most choose not to make that mistake. The important point is THERE IS ALWAYS CHOICE.
They therefore think, dream or imagine they fall - actually no falls from Vaikuntha because their nitya-siddha body is perpetually fixed there within the eternal presence of Krishna’s pastimes.
As the CC states all marginal living entities are originally nitya-siddha and only the Vishnu-tattvas never forget their position in Krishna lila. Some come to the material creation in Krishna’s lila while others come to for fill their own selfish dreams.
As there are no killing of demons in Vaikuntha, Krishna plays this role as His Vishnu expansion in the material creation with all his nitya siddha jiva-tattvas and Vishnu-tattva associates however, there are other jiva-tattva souls who choose to leave Goloka simply because of their choice not to be with Krishna, THERE IS NO MATERIAL CAUSE FOR THEM FORGETTING GOLOKA OR VAIKUNTHA OTHER THAN FREE WILL AND CHOICE.
Srila Prabhupada makes it clear in the fourth canto of Srimad Bhagavatam and numerous lectures, letters and morning walks we originate from Goloka.
Srila Prabhupada explains we have marginal independence as part of our nature as marginal living entities. We can misuse such independence even in Goloka or Vaikuntha with out any material cause, it simply happens because it is there in our own fundamental spiritual nature as independent (marginal) living beings.
This means a small minority, less than 10% of jiva-tattva nitya-siddha souls in Vaikuntha or Goloka choose to leave. For this purpose Krishna, via His Maha-Vishnu expansion, creates the mahat-tattva (material creation) for them.
The marginal living entities full potential of loving selfless devotion to Krishna and His loving devotees is based on individuality, independence and the right to choose; we never loose that right to choose, not even in Vaikuntha. Surrender to Krishna and His pure devotees do not mean to become mindless porns in Vaikuntha and ‘yes’ men/women to Krishna.
No, everything in Vaikuntha is based on reciprocal loving service even if it is a fact that we surrender selflessly and unconditionally. The fact is that’s how Krishna also treats us. Having free will and choice gives us the opportunity to give ourselves in our own unique way. That choice is always there even in Goloka or Vaikuntha and must be there if genuine love is to exist.
It is not that we first have to be contacted by the modes of material nature to fall down from Goloka or Vaikuntha. It’s all to do with a combination of choice and the sheer smallness of the marginal living entity.
And even then due to that smallness and choice, we only ‘think, imagine or dream’ we are fallen that we become fallen. The fact is we never fall; our nitya-siddha body never leaves Goloka
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could be come the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking”. July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence”.
Srila Prabhupada - “That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Regarding to how a nitya siddha in Goloka can fall down to nitya baddha in the material world, Srila Prabhupada explains we have marginal independence as part of our nature in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrndavana.
We can misuse such independence even in Goloka or Vaikuntha with out any material cause, it simply happens because it is there in our own fundamental spiritual nature as independent (marginal) living beings.
Maya is not the cause of ones fall down from Vaikuntha, that is not possible she only exists in the mahat-tattva. The cause of ones fall down is ones own independent desires of self importance based on free will and choice.
One simply chooses to no longer serve Krishna as their nitya siddha body. As a result, they eventually forget their nitya-siddha body and leave Vaikuntha and enter the mahat tattva as their nitya-baddha secondary self that is the sub-conscious non-Krishna conscious condition of the marginal living entity.
it should of been made clear that the entire universes of Krishna and His Vishnu-tattvas, jiva-tattvas, Goloka-Vrndavana, Vaikuntha’s and the mahat-tattva (material creation) and the impersonal Brahmajyoti are all collectively the Brahmajyoti or everything that is.
The Vaikuntha’s were never created so the word ‘creation’ cannot be used for Goloka-Vrndavana and the Vaikuntha realm, nor can it be used to explain the marginal living entities (jiva-tattvas) or Krishna and His unlimited Vishnu-tattva expansions.
The word creation can only apply to the mahat-tattva material ‘creation’ because it has a beginning and end.
The ‘impersonal Brahmajyoti’ or the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky is actually a very small minority of souls in their baddha-jiva inferior feature that becomes established in that ‘impersonal’ dormant state due to the influence of being covered and frustrated within the mahat-tattva that souls fall to and are covered (material vessels that belong to the mahat-tattva) by when they choose to no longer serve Krsna in Goloka or Vaikuntha.
In other words, when souls become fed up with the material creation of changing material bodies or vessels, they can escape this cycle of birth and death by either realizing their full potential nitya-siddha body that is always in Goloka even while they ‘imagine’ themselves to be in the mahat-tattva, or they can cease to desire bodily activity (after much difficulty of casting off those subtle and gross material bodies) and enter an inactive dormant state of consciousness that is within and part of each marginal living entities capacity of expression, in this case inactivity.
The individual baddha-jivas who enter this ‘consciousness’ are expressing the impersonal side of their nature and is known as their impersonal Brahmajyoti feature. In other words the impersonal Brahmajyoti is the dormant inactive characteristic of the ‘baddha’-jiva
So where this painting is misleading is the impersonal Brahmajyoti or the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, is NOT some place within the over all universes but is rather a state of inactive consciousness ‘desired’ by the baddha-jiva aspect of the marginal living entity. (That ultimately is also only a temporary condition because the inherent nature of all marginal living entities is ‘activity’
Keep in mind the baddha-jiva consciousness is the sub-conscious or rebellious state of the soul that ignores ones Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha body or the full expression and potential that is the make up of every of every marginal living entity
Those who believe the jiva originates from some inactive state or from the Vraja River or the Body of Maha-Vishnu are actually propagating Impersonalism. The real facts are that all marginal living entities come from the pastimes of Krishna by their own foolish choice. This is the teaching of Srila Prabhupada.
Darkness cannot be left over in the presents of light because light dissipates all darkness. In other words while there is light (nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body), darkness (nitya-baddha condition) does not exist.
This means that when one’s ‘awareness’ is AGAIN situated as the eternal presence of their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the nitya-baddha sub-conscious darkness in the material creation no longer exists.
Tatastha-sakti is just another name of the jiva tattva or marginal living entity and those who are sakti tattva are actually expansions of Vishnu tattva or Krishna's internal potency, they are NEVER jiva tattva and of course can never fall down like the jiva tattva's can if they choose. In the Caitanya Caritamrita so many associates of Lord Caitanya are sakti tattva or expansions of Krishna. In the Pancha tattva only one soul is jiva tattva
Radharani is Vishnu tattva calling her nitya siddha is not right because she can never be nitya baddha - it's even silly to suggest this, Vishnu-sakti-tattva are also expansions of Krishna and it would be wrong to also call them nitya siddha even though some schools of thought do in the Gaudiya math
understanding lila can be difficult, at least for me. Vishnu expansions in another form doing austerity to attain a position as Krishna's conjectural lover is very confidential knowledge and such lilas are plenty in the Caitanya Caritamrita where so many Vishnu tattvas and Vishnu-sakti-tattv, that are also Vishnu-tattvas, seemingly did austerity to be with Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda -- it's all in the name of lila, that is what the whole universe is for as far as Krishna is concerned. Krishna is just having fun with himself and taking the jiva tattvas along for the blissful ride
So this only means there are two meanings to nitya siddha - Although the nitya-siddha expansions of Krsna always remain with Krsna - and then this - Srila Prabhupada - “The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha” Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.107 New York, July 13, 1976
Lord Krishna states that our constitutional nature is that all marginal living beings are eternal servants of the Lord. So to say that ‘conditioned’ souls have never been ‘unconditioned’ in Goloka-Vrndavana is incorrect.
When a marginal living being are in a conditioned state (nitya-baddha) that doesn’t take away their eternal absolute nature as a nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna who is forever fixed within the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka Vrndavana: the rebellious marginal living entity simply becomes overshadowed with the concept of past, present and future instigated by free-will and choice putting them out of sync with the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka which is their natural home
As a result, they have now adopted the relative perception of existence that places them within the mahat-tattva’s bodily vessels, which are all the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. The jiva tattvas as their nitya baddha condition ‘go through’ Maha Vishnu and are not from Him to enter the mahat-tattva or material creation. This is important to understand.
As a result of this choice of ‘falling down’ from Goloka, the marginal living entity is no longer ‘aware’ of Goloka or their nitya-siddha body that is perpetually situated in the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka. So technically the living entities nitya siddha body never falls down, only their consciousness does as a ‘dream condition’ that enters the ‘dreams’ of Maha Vishnu.
As in our case in the material world, we are presently ‘eternally conditioned’ (nitya-baddha) because long, long, long, long ago we made that choice to forget Krishna and simultaneously the ‘awareness’ of our nitya-siddha (eternally liberated) body we serve Krishna as. And when again we achieve liberation from this material world due to the mercy of pure devotee, we will enter Goloka AGAIN by the method of becoming ‘aware’ of our genuine nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body that is always there in Goloka and become ‘eternally liberated’ or in simple terms, we wake up from the MATERIAL DREAM.
No jiva tattvas originate from Maha Vishnu, they may go through him but they certainly do not originate from him, they also do not originate from a dormant state known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti or impersonal Brahman either
Srila Prabhupada – “Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition”. - Letter, June 13, 1970.
From Srila Prabhupada’s teachings we learn that the dormant impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, where souls are in an individual slumber, is also a fallen state that one has entered previously from the mahat-tattva (material creation) Therefore no souls ‘originate’ from the dormant characteristic of the Brahmajyoti, that is not possible because ALL living entities originate directly from the pastimes of Lord Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana.
The technical term for the jiva-soul that enters the mahat-tattva material creation and then the impersonal Brahmajyoti after becoming fed up with material existence is the baddha-jiva (The secondary condition of the marginal living entity, the original condition of the jiva tattva is nitya-siddha in Goloka) The baddha-jiva state in the impersonal brahmajyoti is a dreamless dream or inactive condition of consciousness that 'hovers' in the impersonal Brahmajyoti and exists in that state ONLY while the baddha-jiva is 'inactive' in the impersonal Brahmajyoti that is also a temporary condition of conscious awareness, eventually they fall down from there to again take material vessels in the material world or mahat tattva.
I’m aware how some schools of thought in Hinduism like some in the Gaudiya Math incorrectly claim that the some jiva-souls originally emanate from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, which, they claim, is growing with a constant march of new jiva-souls. They further incorrectly claim that within the dormant characteristics of the Brahmajyoti, the immovability of these inactive jiva-souls is ‘somehow’ disturbed and movement begins. They then claim that from non-differentiation, separation begins. From a bare expanse of standardized consciousness, individual conscious components grow. Srila Prabhupada rejected the nonsense idea that souls ‘originate’ from the impersonal Brahmajyoti from a dormant state of consciousness.
To start with, the jiva souls are never created because they have always been. Actually our perpetual origins are directly from Krishna’s pastimes in Goloka because originally EVERY JIVA SOUL is a selfless nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna within His pastimes.
We do not have a problem with Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s Books but we DO have problem with MIS-INTERPRETATIONS from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s books by most in the Gaudiya math.
In fact, Srila Prabhupada admonished against taking any outside instructions.
From Srila Prabhupada’s Books, letters, morning walks and classes does Prabhupada instruct us, he is the final word on ALL past Acharays, only from Prabhupada we learn everything they preach and all our comments, essays and preaching must be based on Srila Prabhupada’s teachings above all else.
Even in understanding Vedic Cosmology, Prabhupada found many Vedic Scholar’s translations totally useless so what ever we find must be in line with Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, he is giving ‘Sastra’ he learnt from his Guru, he is a true honest selfless ‘Sadhu’ and he is a bonafide ‘Guru’ who has done more to preach Krishna Consciousness than all previous Acharays combined.
Srila Prabhupada’s teachings ARE the combination of all the Acharays and his quotes, comments and mention of them is all we need to know. There is a life time just reading Prabhupada’s Books and hearing or reading all his lectures and morning walks, there is no need to associate with other sangas other than ISKCON
Srila Prabhupada - “Whatever is to be learned of the teachings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura can be learned from our books. There is no need whatsoever for any outside instruction” Letter 73-12-25: Gurukrpa, Yasodanandana
Acyutananda – “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns. He can return?”
Srila Prabhupada – “If he likes he can return”.
Guru-kripa – “How is it that one can become envious of Krishna?”
Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976)
Only a minority fall down from Goloka and Vaikuntha and for them the mahat-tattva is created. No jiva souls originate from an impersonal source or from some cleat sheet of consciousness as some foolishly believe and teach.
Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?”
Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”.”. Los Angeles, June 23, 1975
In this way, the 25% of the Spiritual Sky that is material only caters for less than 10% of the jiva tattvas who choose to leave Vaikuntha for the mahat tattva or material creation, more than 90% of jiva tattvas always ‘choose’ to remain in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana.
Of course the many Sakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas expansions of Krishna never fall down and many, many individuals in Goloka Vrndavan are in that category however, we are jiva tattva and can choose to remain in Vaikuntha or leave for the mahat tattva creation of Maha Vishnu
Acyutananda: 'But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.””
Prabhupada: But if he likes, he can return.
Acyutananda: He can return
Prabhupada: That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that.… That misuse is the cause of our falldown. Room Conversation February 19, 1976 Mayapur
Rather than placating the fall position, Srila Prabhupada refutes the no-fall position. We can fall even after returning back home, back to godhead.
From Srila Prabhupada’s Books, letters, morning walks and classes does Prabhupada instruct us, he is the final word on ALL past Acharays, only from Prabhupada we learn everything they preach and all our comments, essays and preaching must be based on Srila Prabhupada’s teachings above all else.
What ever we find must be in line with Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, he is giving ‘Sastra’ he learnt from his Guru, he is a true honest selfless ‘Sadhu’ and he is a bonafide ‘Guru’ who has done more to preach Krishna Consciousness than all previous Acharays combined.
Srila Prabhupada’s teachings ARE the combination of all the Acharays and his quotes, comments and mention of them is all we need to know. There is a life time just reading Prabhupada’s Books and hearing or reading all his lectures and morning walks, there is no need to associate with other sangas other than ISKCON
Ones fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana is due to free will and choice not maya, there is no material cause for ones fall down from Goloka Vrndavana
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could be come the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence”.
Srila Prabhupada - “That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? ”So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Srila Prabhupada was very clear on this subject - “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport” Letter to Madhudvisa Swam 1972
Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna album
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.”. July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C
Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, you are not conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)Srila Prabhupada - “You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this Maya. This is called Maya”.
Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972
We have to realize that being marginal means free will, even in Goloka. Without it how can there be genuine Love?
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura - “As long as the jiva takes full shelter of the Supreme Lord he remains a resident of Vaikuntha. But when his innate spiritual knowledge of the Lord is covered by forgetfulness, he is placed outside the transcendental realm.” (Caitanya Siksamrita, Sanmod-ana Bhasya-sloka-1)
Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to God or Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Homburg, Germany, June 22, 1974
This seems to be pretty clear according to Srila Prabhupada, who rejects the 'impersonal Brahmajyoti origin that claims that the marginal living entity is originally in a dormant state from where one can use their free will to choose either Vaikuntha or the mahat-tattva.
Many today in 'Hinduism' follow that misunderstanding and it appears to me, they have incorrectly used the word 'tatastha' to describe this impersonal dormant origin state of the jiva, yes the jiva tattva may be in a state of inactivity however, long, long before being in that already fallen position he was with Krishna.
Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Vishnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam. 4.29.83.
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam. 4.29.83.
Srila Prabhupada – “After being in contact with the material modes of nature, the living entity develops the subtle and gross bodies. When the living entity is fortunate enough to associate with Sri Narada Mahamuni or his servants, he is liberated from this ‘dreamland’ of material creation and the bodily conception of life”. Srimad Bhagavatam 4/29/83/
Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a ‘dream’. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” Srimad Bhagavatam. 4.29.2.
Srila Prabhupada – “This material world is a product of the mahat-tattva, which is a state of the Lord's dreaming condition in His yoga-nidra mystic slumber in the Causal Ocean, and yet the whole creation appears to be a factual presentation of His creation. This means that the Lord's dreaming conditions are also factual manifestations. He can therefore bring everything under His transcendental control, and thus whenever and wherever He does appear, He does so in His fullness”. Srimad Bhagavatam 1.16.26-30
We were originally ‘aware’ of ‘always’ being with Krsna, (nitya-siddha) but we chose to forget that fact and become ‘unaware’ of our perpetual nitya-siddha body and service to Krishna because we made the choice to not service Krishna which was the beginning of our fall down.
In that state of forgetfulness we think or dream we have fallen (As nitya-baddha), but actually we are not fallen. We simply have to wake up and remember who we really are, and then we will be in our original position
The dream condition and our dream identity (nitya-baddha conscious state) will then disappear and we will find ourselves in our natural position as nitya-siddha, just like a person who is dreaming wakes up on his own bed. Actually, he is always on his own bed, even in the dream. Similarly, we are always in Goloka even when we ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are in the material creation.
In this way, Srila Prabhupada gives us the way to understand how we can find ourselves separated from Krsna without really “falling” from Vaikuntha even though it appears we have fallen due to forgetting who we really are. Srila Prabhupada in this way explains in his lectures how the living entities can fall down from their eternal relationship with Krsna without really falling down, this Book how this paradox comes about.
Is the jiva soul always called marginal energy?
Srila Prabhupada - “The answer to your question about the marginal energy is that the jiva soul is always called marginal energy whether he is in the spiritual world or in the material world. There are instances where marginal energy jiva souls have fallen from the spiritual world, just like Jaya and Vijaya. So the potency to fall under the influence of the lower energy is always there. And thus the individual jiva soul is called as Krishna’s marginal energy.” - Letter to Rayarama, December 2, 1968
Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…(In Vaikuntha) so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material”.
Srila Prabhupada – “Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with (This biological body or vessel and the material creation). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971
Srila Prabhupada - “Every living being has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally, That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi-perfection of one’s constitutional position. Bhagavad-Gita as it is, Introduction.
Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone (all marginal living entities) is nitya-siddha (eternally liberated)” Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977
Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977
Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". Germany, June 22, 1974
The jiva-soul is always marginal energy wether devotionally active in Goloka-Vrndavana, in Vaikuntha, or active in restricted vessels within the material creation, dormant in the Body of Maha-Vishnu or further inactive in the Vraja River and the Impersonal Brahmajyoti that are ALL occupied by nitya-baddha souls.
Originally the jiva soul was engaged with Krishna in an original loving selfless relationship as nitya-siddha from which he has fallen however, the fall down was not a physical fall down as their nitya-siddha body but rather was a ‘sub-conscious’ fall down from the ‘awareness’ of their nitya-siddha body which is called the nitya-baddha-jiva
Srila Prabhupada - "We are all originally situated on the platform of Krishna consciousness in our eternal personal relationship of love of Krishna." - Letter of November 17, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - "He is fallen already from Vaikuntha planet. He is fallen in this material world, and he is again trying to make progress." Srimad Bhagavatam lecture of June 15, 1972
Srila Prabhupada - " . . . After all, the living entity falls down from the spiritual world . . . There is possibility . . . even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down--what to speak of this material world." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on July 4, 1974
Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Vishnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam. 4.29.83.
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam. 4.29.83.
Srila Prabhupada – “After being in contact with the material modes of nature, the living entity develops the subtle and gross bodies. When the living entity is fortunate enough to associate with Sri Narada Mahamuni or his servants, he is liberated from this ‘dreamland’ of material creation and the bodily conception of life”. Srimad Bhagavatam 4/29/83/
Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a ‘dream’. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” Srimad Bhagavatam. 4.29.2.
Srila Prabhupada – “This material world is a product of the mahat-tattva, which is a state of the Lord's dreaming condition in His yoga-nidra mystic slumber in the Causal Ocean, and yet the whole creation appears to be a factual presentation of His creation. This means that the Lord's dreaming conditions are also factual manifestations. He can therefore bring everything under His transcendental control, and thus whenever and wherever He does appear, He does so in His fullness”. Srimad Bhagavatam 1.16.26-30
We were originally ‘aware’ of ‘always’ being with Krsna, (nitya-siddha) but we chose to forget that fact and become ‘unaware’ of our perpetual nitya-siddha body and service to Krishna because we made the choice to not service Krishna which was the beginning of our fall down.
In that state of forgetfulness we think or dream we have fallen (As nitya-baddha), but actually we are not fallen. We simply have to wake up and remember who we really are, and then we will be in our original position
The dream condition and our dream identity (nitya-baddha conscious state) will then disappear and we will find ourselves in our natural position as nitya-siddha, just like a person who is dreaming wakes up on his own bed. Actually, he is always on his own bed, even in the dream. Similarly, we are always in Goloka even when we ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are in the material creation.
In this way, Srila Prabhupada gives us the way to understand how we can find ourselves separated from Krsna without really “falling” from Vaikuntha even though it appears we have fallen due to forgetting who we really are. Srila Prabhupada in this way explains in his lectures how the living entities can fall down from their eternal relationship with Krsna without really falling down, this Book how this paradox comes about.
Is the jiva soul always called marginal energy?
Srila Prabhupada - “The answer to your question about the marginal energy is that the jiva soul is always called marginal energy whether he is in the spiritual world or in the material world. There are instances where marginal energy jiva souls have fallen from the spiritual world, just like Jaya and Vijaya. So the potency to fall under the influence of the lower energy is always there. And thus the individual jiva soul is called as Krishna’s marginal energy.” - Letter to Rayarama, December 2, 1968
Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…(In Vaikuntha) so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material”.
Srila Prabhupada – “Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with (This biological body or vessel and the material creation). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971
Srila Prabhupada - “Every living being has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally, That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi-perfection of one’s constitutional position. Bhagavad-Gita as it is, Introduction.
Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone (all marginal living entities) is nitya-siddha (eternally liberated)” Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977
Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977
Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". Germany, June 22, 1974
The jiva-soul is always marginal energy wether devotionally active in Goloka-Vrndavana, in Vaikuntha, or active in restricted vessels within the material creation, dormant in the Body of Maha-Vishnu or further inactive in the Vraja River and the Impersonal Brahmajyoti that are ALL occupied by nitya-baddha souls.
Originally the jiva soul was engaged with Krishna in an original loving selfless relationship as nitya-siddha from which he has fallen however, the fall down was not a physical fall down as their nitya-siddha body but rather was a ‘sub-conscious’ fall down from the ‘awareness’ of their nitya-siddha body which is called the nitya-baddha-jiva
Srila Prabhupada - "We are all originally situated on the platform of Krishna consciousness in our eternal personal relationship of love of Krishna." - Letter of November 17, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - "He is fallen already from Vaikuntha planet. He is fallen in this material world, and he is again trying to make progress." Srimad Bhagavatam lecture of June 15, 1972
Srila Prabhupada - " . . . After all, the living entity falls down from the spiritual world . . . There is possibility . . . even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down--what to speak of this material world." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on July 4, 1974
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