Everyone thinks they ARE the decaying material bodily vessel they are trapped in, this kind of thinking is the biggest illusion in the modern world.

Everyone thinks they ARE the decaying material bodily vessel they are trapped in, this kind of thinking is the biggest illusion in the modern world.

This material universe is always in a state of disrepair and decline, it is simply NOT our real home, nor is the bodily vessel we are in our real self, we should not even be in these temporary decaying material bodily vessels!!

The truth is, this place of repeated birth and death is NOT our real home to begin with!

Nothing lasts here within these material universes, everything fades away and decays over time because all things, including our material bodily vessels, are constantly in a state of decomposition and in need of constant maintenance and repair.

The fact is, no matter how hard we try, we can never find permanent satisfaction or happiness in this alien environment called the material creation.

Only fools try to find comfort, pleasure and happiness in these temporary troublesome material bodily containers. Such vessels eventually grow old, diseased ending up being a rotting carcass for maggots and worms.

The REAL purpose for this rare human form of life is to use it, while you still can, for understanding who the real self REALLY is trapped within the material body and learn that ORIGINALLY see are all eternal servants of Krishna in a natural condition.

The fact is, choosing to come here to the material creation was a big mistake.

Therefore, one should dedicate the rest of this life to GET OUT OF THIS MATERIAL UNIVERSE AND MATERIAL BODY instead of trying to foolishly make ourselves comfortable here with the primitive residents of Kali-yuga that are all no better than hogs, dogs, camel's and asses!

Because they all think they are the decaying material body they are trapped in.

Our only desire should be to go back home back to Godhead (Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana)

And NOT be side tracked by the glare of the higher temporary material heavenly planets or being born in wealthy pious families on this mundane material planet.

We should be learning from a very young age, we are the individual jiva-soul within these material bodily containers and NOT the material body.

We should also learn that material endeavor’s for wealth and fame will not solve the problems of birth, disease, old age and death.

Such desires will only rivet us into material attachment and bondage.

It must be emphasized the purpose of this very rare human form of life is to get out of this material world and return back to Krishna's Kingdom of Goloka Vrindavana.

And NOT try and build the kingdom of God without God on this Earth like the Kali-yuga Governments around the world are attempting today.

Such endeavours will NEVER succeed in the material universe as Prabhupada explains here -

Srila Prabhupada - ''When the superior energy is in contact with inferior energy, it becomes an incompatible situation. But when the supreme marginal potency is in contact with the spiritual potency, Harā, it becomes the happy, normal condition of the living entity''. (The "Happening Album" Recorded December 1966 New York City, New York  USA)

The best answer - Do we lose our individuality and sense of independent self when we surrender to God's will?

When we surrender to God do we lose our individuality and sense of independent self?

The "highest independence" is "choosing" to be fully dependent on Krishna.

But that does NOT mean one loses their individual identity and personality and Krishna just flows through them in complete control.

No, obliterating one's individual independent unique personality and  identity and sense of self, is NOT surrender to Krishna's will!!

Such nonsense surrender is IMPERSONALISM because in REAL surrender, one NEVER loses their independence and individual identity by being fully surrended and dependant on Krishna.

Yes, Krishna "does" control His devotee but His devotee never loses their identity and the personal unique characteristics of their individuality that make them an independent "person" FULLY dependant on Krishna.

Krishna gave the jivatma free will, what does that REALLY mean?

In sastra, Krishna DOES promise one will NEVER again fall from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana when there, and yes, He always keeps His promise!

However, Krishna's promise that one will NEVER again fall down to the material creation once they have returned to the Spiritual World, is from Krishna's side, it is His promise if the jiva chooses to accept it.

However, does this mean the jiva can NEVER choose to leave Krishna again "even if they want to?"

This promise, confirmed by many past Acharays, who all agree that once reaching Vaikuntha, one will never again fall down to the material World, is true for most souls, but not all.

Those great souls who also repeat this comment one can never fall from Vaikuntha ARE right for the majority of souls, which is about 90% in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana, but NOT for all souls because of free will.

Srila Prabhupada is the only one that explains Krishna's promise in this correct way and therefore gives the proper understanding of those comments in full.

And adding, yes MOST never fall down however, a small minority DO fall down and puts that figure of those who choose to leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana at less than 10%

Why do some fall down?

Ultimately, love is not a one way street, it is based on reciprocation.

Therefore, we must NOT forget the jivatma's side too, the jivatma must ALSO have THEIR choice and say as well, and agree from THEIR side also.

This is because love is an act of reciprocation, a two way street and therefore NOT just up to Krishna, not even He can force His will on the jiva relating to individual choices in the name of loving exchanges.

Yes it IS true Krishna can do anything He wants, but to force His will on the jiva only destroys the independent individuality of the jiva.

And if He did, then how can their be genuine love as Prabhupada explains below.

Without the reciprocation of loving healthy exchanges then the jiva is no better than dead motionless stone!

By promising He will NEVER let the jiva fall and forcing it, can be seen as interfering with the free will and individuality of the jiva.

This is because some jivas DO eventually choose to leave as Prabhupada has explained and if Krishna stopped that choice then love ceases to exist.

This is because the jiva also is entitled to THEIR choice of serving or not serving Krishna in their expression of free will.

Krishna will NEVER make that decision for the jiva as Prabhupada explains below.

THE JIVA MUST MAKE THAT CHOICE THEMSELVES, NOT KRISHNA!

Otherwise one's sense of free will is violated, and there can be no question of love if not based on free will, where the jiva has the right to choose for themselves.

Ultimately in the end, it is the jiva's choice and NOT just Krishna's.

And in anycase Krishna ONLY wants loving servants who "choose" through their own free will, to serve and love Him.

Not forced to serve Him by saying "once you are in Goloka Vrindavana, NEVER again will you fall down".

No, that is NOT Krishna's call, it is the jiva's choice too to REMAIN there as the Lords servant as weĺl.

The relationship between servant and Master is NEVER one way, it is a perpetual relationship based on "reciprocation".

The promise by Krishna that the jiva will never again fall down into the material world, is from His side but ultimately it is NOT only Krishna's decision, it is also the jivas in the mood of reciprocation.

After all each jiva is an independent individual with 78% of Krishna's qualities with their own sense of identity that THEY control, not Krishna.

Devotee - "Srila Prabhupada, why did God give us free will if He knew we would fall down in the material world?"

Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will. But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone. That is not life". (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)

Each individual jivatma (jiva tattva or soul) never loses their individuality of being a unique person who makes their own choices, Krishna never violates the jiva's individual rights and makes choices for the jiva as Prabhupada explains below.

They must decide for themselves who they serve.

So the conclusion is, Krishna does NOT interfere with the jiva's free will to make their own choices because Krishna does not want to force the jiva to surrender.

In Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver.

What Srila Prabhupada explains below is a very important point-

Srila Prabhupada - ”So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.

Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?

Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.

Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”

Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.

When we surrender to God, do we lose our personal unique individual characteristics and sense of independent self that makes us who we are as a unique person?

When we surrender to God, do we lose our personal unique individual characteristics and sense of independent self that makes us who we are as a unique person?

Answer - A living entity already has their own way of presenting an offering to the Lord based on their own individual abilities and talents that are unique to their personality, presented as their personal selfless offering to the Lord unique to them.

The Individual sense of self, where one realizies one is Krishna's part and parcel and eternal servant, is the jivas complete make up as an independent servant fully dependant on the Lord's mercy.

Personalism ("individuality of the soul") is free from the impersonal or Mayavadi disease that says ultimately we are all part of one conscious collective or life force that flows through all living things.

This false concept of reality eradicates the awareness of being an "individual soul" that has its own unique senseof "individual personality"

We must understand the truth of life, which is in our full potential as the individual jiva souls, we are all separated unites each with their own individual conscious awareness of the self.

This "awareness of self" is beyond falsely identifying with the decaying material body too.

Those who think the temporary material body is who they are, are being deceived.

The temporary outward material bodily vessel is made of decaying flesh, bone and blood that we, the eternal imperishable soul, has nothing to do with as our full expression of the self.

We are a all spiritual beings "temporarily" trapped in these outward vessels made of material energy.

When we surrender to God do we loose our individuality and sense of independent self?

The "highest independence" is "choosing" to be fully dependent on Krishna.

But that does NOT mean one looses their individual identity and personality and Krishna just flows through them in complete control.

No, obliterating one's individual independent unique personality and  identity and sense of self, is NOT surrender to Krishna's will!!

Such nonsense surrender is IMPERSONALISM because in REAL surrender, one NEVER loses their independence and individual identity by being fully surrended and dependant on Krishna.

Yes, Krishna "does" control His devotee but His devotee never loses their identity and the personal unique characteristics of their individuality that make them an independent "person" FULLY dependant on Krishna.

Krishna gave the jivatma free will, what does that REALLY mean?

In sastra, Krishna DOES promise one will NEVER again fall from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana when there, and yes, He always keeps His promise!

However, Krishna's promise that one will NEVER again fall down to the material creation once they have returned to the Spiritual World, is from Krishna's side, it is His promise if the jiva chooses to accept it.

However, does this mean the jiva can NEVER choose to leave Krishna again "even if they want to?"

This promise, confirmed by many past Acharays, who all agree that once reaching Vaikuntha, one will never again fall down to the material World, is true for most souls, but not all.

Those great souls who also repeat this comment one can never fall from Vaikuntha ARE right for the majority of souls, which is about 90% in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana, but NOT for all souls because of free will.

Srila Prabhupada is the only one that explains Krishna's promise in this correct way and therefore gives the proper understanding of those comments in full.

And adding, yes MOST never fall down however, a small minority DO fall down and puts that figure of those who choose to leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana at less than 10%

Why do some fall down?

Ultimately, love is not a one way street, it is based on reciprocation.

Therefore, we must NOT forget the jivatma's side too, the jivatma must ALSO have THEIR choice and say as well, and agree from THEIR side also.

This is because love is an act of reciprocation, a two way street and terefore NOT just up to Krishna, not even He can force His will on the jiva relating to individual choices in the name of loving exhanges.

Yes it IS true Krishna can do anything He wants, but to force His will on the jiva only destroys the independent individuality of the jiva.

And if He did, then how can their be genuine love as Prabhupada explains below.

Without the reciprocation of loving healthy exchanges then the jiva is no better than dead motionless stone!

By promising He will NEVER let the jiva fall and forcing it, can be seen as interfering with the free will and individuality of the jiva.

This is because some jivas DO eventually choose to leave as Prabhupada has explained and if Krishna stopped that choice then love ceases to exist.

This is because the jiva also is entitled to THEIR choice of serving or not serving Krishna in their expression of free will.

Krishna will NEVER make that decision for the jiva as Prabhupada explains below.

THE JIVA MUST MAKE THAT CHOICE THEMSELVES, NOT KRISHNA!

Otherwise one's sense of free will is violated, and there can be no question of love if not based on free will, where the jiva has the right to choose for themselves.

Ultimately in the end, it is the jiva's choice and NOT just Krishna's.

And in anycase Krishna ONLY wants loving servants who "choose" through their own free will, to serve and love Him.

Not forced to serve Him by saying "once you are in Goloka Vrindavana, NEVER again will you fall down".

No, that is NOT Krishna's call, it is the jiva's choice too to REMAIN there as the Lords servant as weĺl.

The relationship between servant and Master is NEVER oneway, it is a perpetual relationship based on "reciprocation".

The promise by Krishna that the jiva will never again fall down into the material world, is from His side but ultimately it is NOT only Krishna's decision, it is also the jivas in the mood ofreciprocation.

After all each jiva is an independent individual with 78% of Krishna's qualities with their own sense of identity that THEY control, not Krishna.

Devotee - "Srila Prabhupada, why did God give us free will if He knew we would fall down in the material world?"

Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will. But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone. That is not life". (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)

Each individual jivatma (jiva tattva or soul) never looses their individuality of being a unique person who makes their own chooses, Krishna never violates the jiva's individual rights and makes choices for the jiva as Prabhupada explains below.

They must decide for themselves who they serve.

So the conclusion is, Krishna does NOT interfere with the jiva's free will to make their own choices because Krishna does not want to force the jiva to surrender.

In Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver.

What Srila Prabhupada explains below is a very important point-

Srila Prabhupada - ”So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.

Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?

Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.

Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”

Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.

Krsna (God) gave the jiva-souls free will, what does that really mean?

In Sastra (Scripture), Krsna does promise the jiva-souls will never fall from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana, and yes, Krsna will always keeps His promise.

However, Krsna's promise that one will never fall down to the material creation once there is Krsna's promise but do the jiva-souls also have the free will to accept or reject His promise?

Or does this mean the jiva-souls can never choose to leave Krsna even if they want to?

This promise by Krsna, confirmed in Bhagavad Gita, says that once reaching Vaikuntha the jiva-souls will never again fall down to the material world.

Prabhupada has explained this is true for most jiva-souls, over 90%, but not all choose to accept Krsna's promise because of free will.

Those who repeat this comment in Bhagavad Gita are right for the majority of jiva-souls in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana, but as explained less the 10% choose to leave because of free will.

Srila Prabhupada explains Krsna's promise and gives the proper understanding of those comments, explaining that a small minority do fall down. 

Why do some fall down? 

Ultimately, freedom is not a one way street, the freedom of the jiva-souls includes their unique quality to make choices. 

Real love can only exist when it is based on reciprocation and loving exhanges in a two-way relationship.

Therefore, we must not forget the jiva-soul's feelings too.

The jiva-souls must also have their choice to stay in Vaikuntha or leave  if they choose otherwise there is no meaning to having fee will.

Loving exchanges is activated by reciprocation between two,  it can never exist on a one-way platform. 

Therefore the destiny of the jiva-souls is not exclusively up to Krsna, the jiva-souls also have a choice.

The fact is Krsna will never force the jiva-souls to accept His promise of never again falling down to the material creation if they choose differently.

He can force His will on the jiva-souls if He wants to because Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and cause of all causes and controls everything including the jiva-souls free will.

But no, Krsna never interferes with the jiva-soul's free will by forcing them to love Him because He knows not allowing the jiva-souls to have their freedom only makes them no better than dead stone.

Krsna can do anything He wants but to force His will on the jiva-souls only destroys the independent individuality and unique personality of each jiva-soul, depriving them of experiencing loving voluntary exchanges with Krsna.

In other words, experiencing love means having a relationship between two that includes the free will to even reject Krsna if one chooses.

If Krsna forced the jiva-souls to love and serve Him then how can their be genuine loving exchanges as Prabhupada explains, love can only exist between two, it is never one.

By promising He will never let the jiva-souls fall down by forcing His will on the jiva-souls, is actually interfering with their free will, because it denies them their right of self expression, reply and independent acts of voluntary service to Krsna. 

Sadly, some jiva-souls do eventually choose to leave the spiritual worlds as Prabhupada has explained.

And yes, they are entitled to that choice of serving or not serving Krsna.

Krsna therefore will never force His promise on the jiva-souls that once returning to the spiritual world they will never again fall down, no, each jiva-soul has to make that choice for themselves.

Otherwise one's free will is violated and there can be no question of loving exchanges if not based on free will.

Ultimately in the end it is the jiva-soul's choice and not just Krsna's will or demands.

This is because Krsna wants loving voluntary exchanges with His servants who can choose for themselves through their own free will to voluntary serve and love Him in their own unique way.

It is a foolish saying that once you are in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana you never again fall down to the material creation.

No, that is not Krsna's call, it is also the jiva-souls choice to remain there as His servant as weĺl.

The relationship between servant and Master is never one-way, it is a perpetual relationship based on reciprocation and loving exchanges.

The promise by Krsna that the jiva-souls will never again fall down into the material world is from His side but ultimately it is not only Krsna's decision, it is also the jiva-souls choice too as explained above.

Devotee - "Srila Prabhupada, why did God give us free will if He knew we would fall down in the material world?"

Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will. But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone. That is not life". (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)

Srila Prabhupada - "Free will means that you can act wrongly. That is free will. Unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then? If I act only one-sided, that means I have no free will. Because we act sometimes wrongly, that means we have free will."

Hayagriva - "A man may know better but still act wrongly."

Srila Prabhupada -"Yes, but that is free will. He misuses his. Just like a thief, he knows that his stealing, it is bad, but still he does it. That is free will. He cannot check his greediness, so in spite of his knowing that he is doing wrong thing—he will be punished, he knows; he has seen another thief, he was punished, he was put into prison— everything he knows, but still he steals. Why? Misuse of free will. Unless there is misuse of free will, there is no question of free will." (Discussions with Srila Prabhupada and Rene Descartes 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - "Surrender BY your intelligence, but don't surrender your intelligence."(Letter to Bali Mardan 1974)

This means the individual jiva-souls in the spiritual worlds always "voluntarily express themselves" in their own unique way with personal contributions they choose to offer to Krsna.

Srila Prabhupada - "The jiva-soul's position in the spiritual world is voluntary. Some devotees want to serve Krsna as flower; they become flower there. If I want to be a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Krsna and become a flower, voluntarily, and one can change from flower to human body. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Krsna as cow, he serves Krsna as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. It is inconceivable, yet a fact." (Srimad Bhagavatam 6.1.1-4 - Melbourne, May 20, 1975)

In the spiritual world all relationships with Krsna are equally blissful to each other, just like one may choose to be a carnation flower while others choose to be a rose flower.

Srila Prabhupada - "Because you are Son of God you have independence, you have acquired the quality of your father, so God does not interfere with your independence. If you persist that "I must enjoy independently," God says, "All right, you can go." This is the position, if you persist, God sanctions. And you can come here and enjoy." (Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974)

Srila Prabhupada – "So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, or one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that is not independence, that is force." (Los Angeles, June 23, 1975)

The individual jiva-souls are independent living entities in the spiritual worlds and have their own unique personality and sense of self that is separate from Krsna's Personality, yet are simultaneously dependent on Krsna as His parts and parcels.

The reason why Krsna gives the jiva-souls their independence and free will is so they can choose for themselves how to serve Him in their own unique personal way, or even reject Him if they choose.

This also means the jiva-souls can always contribute their own unique offerings out of unconditional personal love, without the need of any pressure or force from Krsna.

Real love or service can only exist when free will allows the jiva-souls to voluntarily participate in loving devotional exchanges and contribute to the relationship with Krsna.

Srila Prabhupada - ''Love means you take and you also give. Suppose if you love somebody and you simply take from him, but you don't give. Oh, do you think it is very good? No. It is not good. That is not love. That is exploitation. If I go on simply taking from you, and if I don't offer you anything back, then that is simply exploitation." (BG class, Ch 9 text 2-5, New York, November 23, 1966)

Srila Prabhupada - ''We have got the propensity to love. Love means somebody else. Love cannot be one or love cannot be executed only by one, there must be another one. I love somebody; somebody loves me, there must be lover, there must be beloved, and the transaction, then there is love." (Srimad Bhagavatam class, Canto 1 Ch 2 text 6, Delhi, Nov 12, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada - ''The impersonalist philosophy is oneness. So how can there be love with just one? Is it possible? Have you got any such experience? Love means one? No. Love means two. There must be two, the lover and the beloved. Kṛṣṇa is already lover. He's so lover of you that He's trying to get you back. That is Kṛṣṇa's attempt. "Please, My dear boy, or My dear friend, My dear servant." (Srimad Bhagavatam class Canto 2 Ch 1 text 3, Paris, June 12, 1974)

Surrender to Krsna in the spiritual world does not mean giving up your free will and allowing Krsna to control all your actions, deeds, words and thoughts.

No, the jiva-souls are not programmed mindless drones who only obey and never contribute in their relationship with Krsna in their own unique way.

The jiva-souls actually never lose their free will in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana, or their individual ability of voluntary self-expression of personal contributions that are unique to each individual jiva-soul.

This means only by having free will can genuine loving exchanges and reciprocation take place, and without free will the jiva-souls are no better than dead stone Prabhupada has warned us.

Furthermore, Krsna never interferes with the free will of the jiva-souls because if He did, and never allowed them to have their freedom to make their own voluntary offerings in the spiritual world, then that means loving exchanges and reciprocation with Krsna can never exists.

If one is forced to worship Krsna or Visnu then that is not love, it is slavery which is impersonalism.

The impersonal version of God's Kingdom of Goloka-Vrindavana and the Vaikuntha planets, where the jiva-souls are forced to surrender their free will to only be told what to do, how to think and how to act is the teachings of a bogus God and spiritual teacher meant control your every thoughts and deeds. 

Such so called surrender is spiritual suicide to a Vaisnava, because such bogus surrender makes the jiva-souls no better than dead useless unproductive mindless stone.

Having genuine free will on the other hand, allows the jiva-souls to be themselves as a contributing person, which means voluntarily being an independent unique servant of Krsna, who can always choose what to offer to Krsna and how to serve Krsna.

Voluntary service is the bases of genuine surrender in Goloka Vrindavana and the Vaikuntha planets (the spiritual worlds) which are the permanent eternal home and origin of all the marginal living entities (jiva-souls).

The jiva-souls in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana are forever voluntarily expanding the expression of their unique individuality with an increasing variety of personal devotional offerings based on free will, it is never a nonsense one-sided dominating relationship with Krsna Prabhupada explains.

No, Krsna does not control the surrendered jiva-souls by forcing His will on them like a puppet master controls every movement of his puppets with the manipulations of strings, denying self-expression, individual contributions and voluntary service.

However, Krsna does control His pure devotees with love by His service to them. 

Kṛṣṇa serves His devotees more than they could ever serve Him. 

The jiva-souls who choose to allow this, experience deep feelings of loving exchanges and reciprocation out of their unconditional love for Krsna and therefore always want to serve Krsna and be with Him.

Srila Prabhupada - "Krsna does not want to become a lover by force, from the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; no, that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?" (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.)

Devotee – "When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krsna, we have a perfect relationship with Krsna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we’re already serving Krsna?"

Srila Prabhupada – "Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down."

Devotee – "Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving."

Srila Prabhupada – "Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire."

Devotee – "In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it says that Krsna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krsna did not want us to come, why are we here?"

Srila Prabhupada – "Yes, you forced Krsna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, "My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there." But he insists, "Oh, I must go. I must go." All right, you go at your risk and suffer. What can be done? So because you are son of God you have acquired the quality of your father so God does not interfere with your independence (free will)." (Lecture Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974)

Srila Prabhupada - "Unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will if I can act only one sided? That means I have no free will. Because we can act wrongly (sometimes), that means we have free will." (Discussions with Srila Prabhupada and Rene Descartes)

The marginal living entities (jiva-souls) never lose their free will because they are eternal as Bhagavad Gita As It Is explains-

"For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." (BG, Ch 2, text 20)

Free will has nothing to do with the material body, free will is a symptom of the eternal jiva-soul.

Free will is the constitutional makeup of the marginal living entities (jiva-souls) in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana where nothing material exists, including decaying material bodily vessels.

Devotee – "Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?"

Srila Prabhupada – "Yes, human form. God is also human form. Man is made after the shape of God. I think there is in the Bible. Is it not? So God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs."

Hari-sauri – "How do we understand, then, that there are peacocks and flowers and trees in the spiritual world? Are these not eternal forms?"

Srila Prabhupada – "[describing material form first]: Yes. They are more covered. Just like if you cover your body with blanket, the hands and legs are invisible. But you are not the blanket. So the trees and plants, they are more covered. They are not in full manifestation. The human form is the full manifestation of the soul."

Hari-sauri - "They are covered in the spiritual world?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Not in the spiritual world. There that is voluntary. Some devotees want to serve Krsna as flower; so they become flower there. If I want that, to be a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Krsna, then he becomes flower, voluntarily, and he can change from flower to human body. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Krsna as cow, he serves Krsna as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. It is inconceivable, yet a fact." (Srimad Bhagavatam 6.1.1-4 Melbourne, May 20, 1975)

Krsna never interferes with the jiva-soul's free will, even when they choose to reject Him.

Srila Prabhupada – "So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, or one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that is not independence, that is force." (Los Angeles, June 23, 1975)

Srila Prabhupada - "Free will means that you can act wrongly. That is free will. Unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then? If I act only one sided, that means I have no free will. Because we act sometimes wrongly, that means free will."

Hayagriva - "A man may know better but still act wrongly."

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, but that is free will. He misuses his. Just like a thief, he knows that his stealing, it is bad, but still he does it. That is free will. He cannot check his greediness, so in spite of his knowing that he is doing wrong thing—he will be punished, he knows; he has seen another thief, he was punished, he was put into prison— everything he knows, but still he steals. Why? Misuse of free will. Unless there is misuse of free will, there is no question of free will." (Philosophy Discussions with Srila Prabhupada, Rene Descartes)

Srila Prabhupada - "We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada - ''These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha." (Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970)

It is not Maya and her material energy causing the jiva-souls to leave or fall down from Vaikuntha because there is no material nature (Maya) in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana that forces the jiva-soul to leave Krsna, Maya's temptation and material energy do not exist in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana however,  free will does exist there.

Srila Prabhupada - ''The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness.Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he is fallen down." (Letter to: Revatinandana, Los Angeles 13 June, 1970)

Srila Prabhupada - "As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere." 

(Hare Krsna "Happening record album" New York December 1966)

Srila Prabhupada - "So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna? I immediately fall down." (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.)

Srila Prabhupada – ''Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at anytime, so there is always a chance of falling down by misuse of one’s independence." (Letter to Jagadisa Prabhu, 4/25/1970)

Srila Prabhupada – "Where are the spirit souls coming from, these spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities." 

(Letter to Jagadisa 7/9/1970)

Srila Prabhupada – "So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krsna says, yathecchasi tathä kuru. "Now you do whatever you like." (BG lecture, Mayapur, June 20, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada - "In the broader sense everyone comes from Krsnaloka (Goloka Vrindavana) When one forgets Krsna he is conditioned, when one remembers Krsna he is liberated." (Letter to Mukunda, June 10, 1969)

Srila Prabhupada - "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately Maya covers us. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going." (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami June 1972 Australia)

Acyutananda - ''But in the Bhagavad Gita it says, "Once coming ftom there, he never returns to the material creation."

Srila Prabhupada - ''But if he likes, he can return."

Acyutananda - ''He can return?''

Srila Prabhupada - ''That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown." (Morning Walk, February 19, 1976, Mayapur)

Devotee - "Srila Prabhupada why did Krsna give us free will if He knew we could fall down in the material world?"

Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will. But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone either. That is not life." (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)

Syamasundara - "Can we predict that returning back home back to Godhead will be permanent? Can we predict that? Just like many prisoners leave the prison, however, some do come back?''

Srila Prabhupada - "No, there is no permanent effect because we have got little independence. There is nothing permanent because you can misuse your independence at any time."

Syamasundara - "And some come back?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, otherwise there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do this, you can do that. "All right, whatever you like."

Devotee - "Then he is so many times falling down, again and again, so will he eventually permanently come back?"

Srila Prabhupada - "He has got independence, therefore there is always the possibility he can misuse his independence, he can fall down. That's why when a man is released from the prison house, that does not mean permanently because he can come back again, the general law is not to come back, but if he likes, he can come back, otherwise what is the meaning of independence? Just like one becomes free from the prison house, naturally he should not go there again."

(Discussions with Syamasundara, Henri Bergson)**..

Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (BG class August 6, 1973)

Leaving Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana has nothing to do with material energy or maya because they do not exist in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.

However what does ETERNALLY exit there in the Spiritual Worlds is ''free will'' and the ''ability to choose''.

Therefore one's fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana is due to "free will" and the "sheer smallness of the jivatma" and NOT maya. So there is absolutely no material cause for one's fall down from Goloka Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.

Devotee - "Srila Prabhupada, why did God give us free will if He knew we would fall down in the material world?"

Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will. But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone. That is not life". (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)

Srila Prabhupada - "By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can also become siddha. He can become AGAIN nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas AGAIN nitya-siddha" (New York lecture on Caitanya-caritamrta, July 13, 1976)

Srila Prabhupada - "The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha, because God is eternal and His part and parcels, the living entities, they are also eternal. So that is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha, sädhana-siddha, krpa-siddha-there are different grades. They are all described in The Nectar of Devotion. So one can become sadhana-siddha". (New York lecture on Caitanya-caritamrta, July 13, 1976)

Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could be come the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking

Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?

Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.

Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?

Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? ”So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C

Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krishna, we have a perfect relationship with Krishna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we’re already serving Krishna?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.”

Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…”

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom. It is his desire.

Devotee – “In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. You forced Krishna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, “My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there.” But he insists, “Oh, I must go. I must go.” “All right, you go at your risk. That’s all. And you suffer. What can be done?” Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, almighty—therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence. If you persist that “I must go and enjoy independently,” so God says, “All right, you can go.” This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy”.(Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974)

Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada - "These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970

Even the leaves CAN fall from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana.

No past Acharays or great devotees would EVER maturely believe, when based on FULL knowledge -

"Once the jivatma is in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana the jiva soul will NEVER fall down to the material creation".

This promise above has been said in Shastra by Krishna and past Acharays but ONLY as a form of encouragement for neophytes to help them NOT fall down to the material world again.

Here is why it is NOT just up to Krishna -

Yes we all know in Sastra Krishna DOES promise one will NEVER fall from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana and he keeps His promise!

However, that promise is from Krishna's side, we must not forget the jivama must ALSO have THEIR choice too, and agree from their side also.

Ultimately in the end, it is the jiva's choice and NOT just Krishna's because he ONLY want servants who choose to serve Him.

Each individual jivatma (jiva tattva or soul) never looses their individuality of being a unique person made up by the following characteristics-

1 - "Personal abilities and talents" unique to each individual soul that gives one "a strong sense of self" that enables one to contribute independently "as a unique person" free from a nonsense "all one" mindless collective (impersonalism borge*) consciousness .

2 - Unique personal ability to express one's personality and character as a free thinker with the strong sense of "I am a complete individual independent person within  myself"

This IS the jiva tattva's full description and potential as an individual person who is simultaneously an eternal surrendered servant (by choice) of Lord Krishna the Supreme Personality of Godhead and cause of ALL causes being His parts and parcels.

3 - One's own special unique ability to like or dislike, or choose this side or that side (to be with Krishna or not be with Krishna) thus expressing oneself as an independent individual person.

Without this quality of reciprocation, love and real service can never genuinely exist.

4 - The individual's right as a "person" to accept or reject, to provide ideas with personal imputs make us the unique individuals we all are, because we do not only accept love, but can each give so much love and service too in OUR unique personal wonderful way!

This is what "personalism" is all about!!

Being a person and having a strong sense of self.

This is why no past Acharays or great devotees would EVER say "once one is in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana they will never fall down".

This is because all jiva souls are individual independent beings, therefore Krishna CANNOT fully make that decision for them, which is they will NEVER fall from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana once there, because ONLY the jiva can make that decision.

This is because the jiva is NOT part of some mindless smiling impersonal blissful collective, or part of an "all one sharing consciousness group of drones that all think the sameway with their glazed impersonal eyes.

This version of Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana I reject and is really worse than hell for the jiva.

Losing one's independent individuality IS hell.

All individual jivas are NEVER forced to be Krishna's servant because the jivas also have a choice.

This also includes the "choice" to stay or leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana at anytime if the jiva chooses!

Krishna does promise one will NEVER fall from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana however, that promise is from Krishna's side and He keeps His promise!

However the jiva must ALSO agree on their side too because Love is reciprocal.

5 - Therefore, in simple language, those who claim one can NEVER fall down or leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana, are NOT understanding it is only less than 10% who choose to fall down or leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana anyway.

6 - The fact is, 90% of jivas choose to NEVER leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.

But if one really thinks about even that comment, yes, it is a fact that the other 90% of jivas will never fall "as long as they continue desire to serve Krishna and NEVER forget Him"

Which means ALL 100% of jivas ALWAYS have the choice to stay in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana or leave and enter the material creation if they want "perpetually!"

Again this free will is nessessary if there is genuine reciprocal love between Krishna and the jiva.

Many inexperienced devotees feel insecure hearing this and that THEY are ultimately responsible.

They therefore find it easier to follow the Gaudiya Math teachings or some other Sanga that also teaches them that once they reach Goloka Vrindavana or Vaikuntha, then they will NEVER again fall down to the material world.

Believing in this so called surrender to Krishna, takes away the fear of failure and all responsibility from the jiva because they believe Krishna completely takes over the jiva's individuality and destiny with Krishna in complete control over the individual jiva's choices and service.

This is THEIR version of surrender, to speculate how Krishna's "will" flows through them getting the jiva to do everything He wants them to do in a oneway  relationship of so called surrender.

Their "so called surrender" believes Krishna completely takes over ALL responsibility of the jiva which is really obliterating one's individual unique personality and identity.

The fact is, this type of surrender where one renounces all responsibility for their identity, actions and personality in the name of "surrender prabhu" is actually impersonalism.

Real love is reciprocation, it is NEVER an impersonal one way street where surrender to Krishna takes away one's sense of self, individuality and RESPONSIBILITY.

"God helps those who helps themselves".

You always have a choice otherwise if Krishna does everything for you, how can there be genuine love?

The freedom to leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana MUST always be on the table (as a choice) because without it, there can NEVER be real love and service based on freewill.

Srila Prabhupada has said you can never force someone to love you, there must be LOVE based on reciprocation.

Srila Prabhupada - ”So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking”.

Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?

Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.

Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”

Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? ”So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” (July 8, 1976 in Washington D.C.) End Quote.

BORG* (From Star Trek The Next Generation TV fame 1987) A race of beings acting as individuals but with no sense of independent self or individuality, who act as an "all one" collective (also called Mayavadi philosophy.)

Even the leaves CAN fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana.

Even the leaves CAN fall from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana.

No past Acharays or great devotees would EVER maturely believe, when based on FULL knowledge -

"Once the jivatma is in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana the jiva soul will NEVER fall down to the material creation".

This promise above has been said in Shastra by Krishna and past Acharays but ONLY as a form of encouragement for neophytes to help them NOT fall down to the material world again.

Here is why it is NOT just up to Krishna -

Yes we all know in Sastra Krishna DOES promise one will NEVER fall from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana and he keeps His promise!

However, that promise is from Krishna's side, we must not forget the jivama must ALSO have THEIR choice too, and agree from their side also.

Ultimately in the end, it is the jiva's choice and NOT just Krishna's because he ONLY want servants who choose to serve Him.

Each individual jivatma (jiva tattva or soul) never looses their individuality of being a unique person made up by the following characteristics-

1 - "Personal abilities and talents" unique to each individual soul that gives one "a strong sense of self" that enables one to contribute independently "as a unique person" free from a nonsense "all one" mindless collective (impersonalism borge*) consciousness .

2 - Unique personal ability to express one's personality and character as a free thinker with the strong sense of "I am a complete individual independent person within  myself"

This IS the jiva tattva's full description and potential as an individual person who is simultaneously an eternal surrendered servant (by choice) of Lord Krishna the Supreme Personality of Godhead and cause of ALL causes being His parts and parcels.

3 - One's own special unique ability to like or dislike, or choose this side or that side (to be with Krishna or not be with Krishna) thus expressing oneself as an independent individual person.

Without this quality, loving exchanges of reciprocation  can never genuinely exist.

4 - The individual's right as a "person" to accept or reject, to provide ideas with personal imputs make us the unique individuals we all are, because we do not only accept love, but can each give so much love and service too in OUR unique personal wonderful way!

This is what "personalism" in the Spiritual World is all about while trying to please Krishna and His devotees with selfless service and unique personal expressions.

Each jiva has their own humble unique ability to make an offering of THEIR choice and THEIR standard, making the offering "personal and unique to each individual person".

There is no "collectivce consciousness of oneness" (where everyone thinks and does the same thing) in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana.

In Vaikuntha the living entities have a similar looking spiritual body to Lord Vishnu but always remain a unique individual eternal personal servant of Lord Narayana.

Being an individual person is having a strong sense of self.

No past Acharays or great devotees would EVER say, in full knowledge, "the jiva in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana can NEVER fall down".

This is because all jiva souls are individual independent beings, therefore Krishna DOES NOT make that decision for them, even though He can if He wanted too because He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and cause of all causes and can do what ever He wants.

Generally the jivatma will never fall from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana once there, however, the jiva has free will and the ability ro choose for themselves and if they want to go or stay, that choice is eternally theirs.

Such a decision must be with the jivas because Krishna gave them the independent ability to think for themselves.

So even with Krishna, the relationship is reciprocal and never forced, therefore the jiva can leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana anytime they desire.

We must understand the jiva does NOT enter some mindless smiling impersonal blissful collective by entering Vaikuntha.

Or become part of an "all one" sharing conscious group of "drones" who all think the same way as seen in their glazed impersonal eyes.

This impersonal version of Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana I reject and is really worse than hell for a devotee of Krishna.

Loosing one's independent individuality and sense of self IS hell because one is no better than dead stone.

All individual jivas are NEVER forced to be Krishna's servant because the jivas also have a choice.

This also includes the "choice" to stay or leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana at anytime if the jiva chooses!

Krishna however, does promise one will NEVER fall from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana once there however, that promise is from Krishna's side and He keeps His promise!

But the jiva must ALSO agree on their side too because Love is reciprocal.

5 - Therefore, in simple language, those who claim one can NEVER fall down or leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana, are NOT understanding it is only less than 10% who choose to fall down or leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana anyway.

6 - The fact is, 90% of jivas choose to NEVER leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.

But if one really thinks about even that comment, yes, it is a fact that the other 90% of jivas will never fall "as long as they continue desire to serve Krishna and NEVER forget Him"

Which means ALL 100% of jivas ALWAYS have the choice to stay in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana or leave and enter the material creation if they want "perpetually!"

Again this free will is nessessary if there is genuine reciprocal love between Krishna and the jiva.

Many inexperienced devotees feel insecure hearing this and that THEY are ultimately responsible.

They therefore find it easier to follow the Gaudiya Math teachings or some other Sanga that also teaches them that once they reach Goloka Vrindavana or Vaikuntha, then they will NEVER again fall down to the material world.

Believing in this so called surrender to Krishna, takes away the fear of failure and all responsibility from the jiva because they believe Krishna completely takes over the jiva's individuality and destiny with Krishna in complete control over the individual jiva's choices and service.

This is THEIR version of surrender, to speculate how Krishna's "will" flows through them getting the jiva to do everything He wants them to do in a oneway  relationship of so called surrender.

Their "so called surrender" believes Krishna completely takes over ALL responsibility of the jiva which is really obliterating one's individual unique personality and identity.

The fact is, this type of surrender where one renounces all responsibility for their identity, actions and personality in the name of "surrender prabhu" is actually impersonalism.

Real love is reciprocation, it is NEVER an impersonal one way street where surrender to Krishna takes away one's sense of self, individuality and RESPONSIBILITY.

"God helps those who helps themselves".

You always have a choice otherwise if Krishna does everything for you, how can there be genuine love?

The freedom to leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana MUST always be on the table (as a choice) because without it, there can NEVER be real love and service based on freewill.

Srila Prabhupada has said you can never force someone to love you, there must be LOVE based on reciprocation.

Srila Prabhupada - ”So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking”.

Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?

Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.

Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”

Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? ”So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” (July 8, 1976 in Washington D.C.) End Quote.

BORG* (From Star Trek The Next Generation TV fame 1987) A race of beings acting as individuals but with no sense of independent self or individuality, who act as an "all one" collective (also called Mayavadi philosophy.)