Back to Godhead and its "real" meaning.
"Going Back to Godhead is voluntary"
Everyone can choose to be with Krishna or choose not to be with Krishna if they want.
EVEN if one is in Goloka Vrindavana or Vaikuntha they CAN leave if they choose.
To deny the individual jiva this right and choice by foolishly saying "Not even the leaves fall from Vaikuntha" means denying the jiva's individuality as a independent person who eternally has free will and the ability to choose for themselves what they want.
Srila Prabhupada - "Back to Godhead means God is a person, a person like you and me".
Srila Prabhupada - "Back to Godhead means God is a person, a person like you and me. Just like your father is a person. That is a practical knowledge. Your father's father is also a person. His father is also a person. His father is also a person".
Srila Prabhupada - "The purpose of this life is to return home, back to Godhead, for this is the highest perfection of life. To go back to Godhead means to reject this material world".
Srila Prabhupada - "Real auspicity is go back to home, back to Godhead".
Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 1.5.35, Purport:
The Lord desires that all of them come to Him and live with Him, but going back to Godhead means that one must purify himself from material infections.
Purport:
The general and popular notion is that by discharging fruitive work in terms of the direction of the scriptures one becomes perfectly able to acquire transcendental knowledge for spiritual realization.
Bhakti-yoga is considered by some to be another form of karma. But factually bhakti-yoga is above both karma and jñāna. Bhakti-yoga is independent of jñāna or karma; on the other hand, jñāna and karma are dependent on bhakti-yoga.
This kriyā-yoga or karma-yoga, as recommended by Śrī Nārada to Vyāsa, is specifically recommended because the principle is to satisfy the Lord.
The Lord does not want His sons, the living beings, to suffer the threefold miseries of life. He desires that all of them come to Him and live with Him, but going back to Godhead means that one must purify himself from material infections.
When work is performed, therefore, to satisfy the Lord, the performer becomes gradually purified from the material affection. This purification means attainment of spiritual knowledge.
Therefore knowledge is dependent on karma, or work, done on behalf of the Lord. Other knowledge, being devoid of bhakti-yoga or satisfaction of the Lord, cannot lead one back to the kingdom of God, which means that it cannot even offer salvation, as already explained in connection with the stanza naiṣkarmyam apy acyuta-bhāva-varjitam (Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 1.5.12).
The conclusion is that a devotee engaged in the unalloyed service of the Lord, specifically in hearing and chanting of His transcendental glories, becomes simultaneously spiritually enlightened by the divine grace, as confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 4.31.28.
"Back to Godhead, means surrendering to the bona fide spiritual master and taking the dust of his lotus feet on one's head"
The process of self-realization and the path home, back to Godhead, means surrendering to the bona fide spiritual master and taking the dust of his lotus feet on one's head.
Purport:
One cannot become a perfect devotee of the Lord without having touched the lotus feet of a great devotee. One who has nothing to do with this material world is called niṣkiñcana.
The process of self-realization and the path home, back to Godhead, means surrendering to the bona fide spiritual master and taking the dust of his lotus feet on one's head.
Thus one advances on the path of transcendental realization. Vidura had this relationship with Maitreya, and he attained the results.
Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 8.5.43
"To go back to Godhead means to reject this material world".
Purport:
All learned men say that the five elements, eternal time, fruitive activity, the three modes of material nature, and the varieties produced by these modes are all creations of yogamāyā.
This material world is therefore extremely difficult to understand, but those who are highly learned have rejected it. May the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is the controller of everything, be pleased with us.
The word durvibhāvyam is very important in this verse. No one can understand how everything is happening in this material world by the arrangement of the Supreme Personality of Godhead through His material energies.
As stated in Bhagavad-gītā (9.10), mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sacarācaram: everything is actually happening under the direction of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
This much we can learn, but how it is happening is extremely difficult to understand. We cannot even understand how the affairs within our body are systematically taking place.
The body is a small universe, and since we cannot understand how things are happening in this small universe, how can we understand the affairs of the bigger universe?
Actually this universe is very difficult to understand, yet learned sages have advised, as Kṛṣṇa has also advised, that this material world is duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam; (BG 8.15) in other words, it is a place of misery and temporality.
"One must give up this world and go back home, back to the Personality of Godhead". However, materialists may argue -
"If this material world and its affairs are impossible to understand, how can we reject it?"
The answer is provided by the word prabudhāpabādham. We have to reject this material world because it is rejected by those who are learned in Vedic wisdom.
Even though we cannot understand what this material world is, we should be ready to reject it in accordance with the advice of learned persons, especially the advice of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says:
mām upetya punar janma
duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam
nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ
saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ
"After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection." (BG 8.15)
"One has to return home, back to Godhead, for this is the highest perfection of life. To go back to Godhead means to reject this material world".
Although we cannot understand the functions of this material world and whether it is good for us or bad for us, in accordance with the advice of the supreme authority we must reject it and go back home, back to Godhead.
Bhagavad-gita As It Is Lectures.
"To go back to Godhead means you don't get this material body".
Śyāmasundara: Do we believe in reincarnation?
Prabhupāda: Where is the question of believing? It is a fact. It is not a question of belief. It is a fact.
Śyāmasundara (for woman): Unless you fully surrender to God, then there's no question of knowing that?
Prabhupāda: Yes. To go back to Godhead means you don't get this material body. So long you get this material body, you have to change. That is the material nature.
Anything which is material, it has got a date of birth and it has got a date of annihilation. And in the via media there is growth, their existence.
So this body, not only this body, even this material world, it has got a date or creation, and it will be annihilated.
This is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). It comes into manifestation once, and again it is destroyed. This is material existence.
When you go back to home, back to Godhead, you haven't got to accept this material body. Your spiritual body is already there within this material body.
And in that spiritual body you shall exist along with God. That is the highest perfection of life.
Lecture Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 1.8.32 Los Angeles, April 24, 1973:
"Back to Godhead means you get the same type of body, as Kṛṣṇa has got".
Srila Prabhupada - "So if we be, come out of this interruption, then we get similar love affairs as Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī. So our business should be how to go back to home, back to Kṛṣṇa.
Because going to Kṛṣṇa means, Kṛṣṇa is eternal, we get eternal body. Just like to become a secretary or even a servant of President Nixon, he's also big man. He's also big man.
Because unless one has got some special quality, he cannot become personal servant of President Nixon or his secretary. It is not possible.
Not ordinary man can become President Nixon's servant or secretary. Similarly to go back to home, back to Godhead means you get the same type of body, as Kṛṣṇa has got.
You become aja. Ajo nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam. This is a disease, that we are changing our body. So Kṛṣṇa is Aja.
"Back to Godhead means God is a person, a person like you and me".
Lecture on SB 6.1.11 -- New York, July 25, 1971:
Srila Prabhupada - "Back to Godhead means God is a person, a person like you and me. Just like your father is a person. That is a practical knowledge. Your father's father is also a person. His father is also a person. His father is also a person.
Immediately you can understand.
Therefore the supreme father must be a person. It is very difficult to understand?
Any one of you can say it is very difficult to understand? God is called supreme father, not only in your Bible, but in the Vedas also. In all literature. And actually He's father, because the Vedānta says the Absolute Truth is the original father, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), from whom everything has taken birth or emanated.
So the supreme father cannot be impersonal. He's a person. And in the Vedas, it is confirmed: nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13).
He is the supreme eternal amongst all eternals. We are all eternal, living entities, and He's the supreme eternal.
"Back to Godhead means one must be completely pure. A slight impurity will not allow. Kingdom of God is so, that no impure person can enter".
Lecture on SB 6.1.34-39 -- Surat, December 19, 1970: I am the lowest of the all creatures. I am simply trying to execute the order of my spiritual master. That's all. That should be the business of everyone. Try best.
Try your best to execute the higher order. That is the safest way of progressing. One may be in the lowest stage, but if he tries to execute the duty entrusted upon him, he is perfect.
He may be in lowest stage, but because he is trying to execute the duty entrusted to him, then he is perfect. That is the consideration. (break) Back to Godhead means one must be completely pure.
A slight impurity will not allow. Kingdom of God is so, that no impure person can enter. Just like in your country. You belong to USA.? There are... In every country, there are so many.
Especially in your country, there are so many immigrants, immigration to check whether contamination... Even they do not allow plants to be carried. Is it not? From one port to another. Why?
Checking the contamination. So if in this material world such strict checkings are there, don't you think that one who enters, one who wants to enter the kingdom of God, there is no checking?
Anyone will be able to enter? It is a commonsense affair.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks.
"So go back to home back to Godhead means you remain in your original spiritual body".
Room Conversation with Graham Hill Former World Champion Race Car Driver -- London, August 26, 1973:
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, this body you have got. Just like this hat and coat, vasamsi, this is covering of your body. So you have got already your spiritual body.
Śyāmasundara: Spiritual body.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is now covered by this material element. So emancipation or salvation means you no more get your material body. But your body is already there. Just like in this body, I have got my body. And because I have got a hand my dress has got a hand.
Because I have got a leg, my pant has got a leg. So this superficial, external body is simply covering of your original body.
The original body is spiritual. So go back to home back to Godhead means you remain in your original spiritual body. You get freedom from this covering of material body. Now that spiritual body you can transfer to so many ways.
All-auspiciousness means go back to home, back to Godhead. So if we stick to pure devotional service, follow the rules and regulations, chant sixteen rounds, be engaged always in the service of the Lord, then ultimate gain is that tyaktva deham...
Srila Prabhupada - "All-auspiciousness means go back to home, back to Godhead".
Srila Prabhupada - "So if we stick to pure devotional service, follow the rules and regulations, chant sixteen rounds, be engaged always in the service of the Lord, then ultimate gain is that tyaktvā dehaṁ"
Nectar of Devotion Lectures -- Vrndavana, November 3, 1972:
Srila Prabhupada - "So pure devotional service is the beginning of all auspiciousness. All-auspiciousness means go back to home, back to Godhead.
So if we stick to pure devotional service, follow the rules and regulations, chant sixteen rounds, be engaged always in the service of the Lord, then ultimate gain is that tyaktvā dehaṁ punar naiti mām eti kaunteya.
We suffer due to our sinful activities. That is the general meaning of suffering. For pious activities we enjoy. But in this material world, either we enjoy or suffer, the common factor is suffering.
Suppose if for my pious activities I get good birth, janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrī (SB 1.8.26). By pious activities, we get birth in good family, janma; aiśvarya, we get sufficient riches, wealthy family, wealthy parents; janmaiśvarya-śruta, good education; and śrī, beauty.
These are the result of pious activities. But to take birth in the family of a king or very rich man, the sufferings of taking birth is the same.
As the poor man suffers within the womb of his mother, similarly the rich man also suffers within the womb of his mother. The sufferings of taking birth is equal to the poor man and rich man.
There is no difference. When there is disease, fever, it is not it is less painful to the rich man and very painful to the poor man. The pain is the same. So actually, so long there is material existence, the so-called suffering and enjoying, they're on the same level.
There is no difference. But if we take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, as Kṛṣṇa assures, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66), "I shall get you relieved, released from all kinds of sinful activities."
That is real auspiciousness. Means when Kṛṣṇa takes charge, He gradually educates the devotee buddhi-yogam, in devotion service, so that he may go back home, back to Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. That is real auspicity.
In the material world, so-called auspicity, to become very rich, to become very educated, to become very beautiful, high parentage, they are also, in material consideration, they are auspicity, undoubtedly.
But they are also adulterated with so many sufferings, threefold miseries: ādhyātmika, ādhibhautika, ādhidaivika. So actually such position is not auspicity.
"Real auspicity is go back to home, back to Godhead".
Srila Prabhupada - "Therefore it is said, pure devotional service... Pure devotional service means without any material motive. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Brs. 1.1.11).
So pure devotional service is the beginning of all auspiciousness. All-auspiciousness means go back to home, back to Godhead. So if we stick to pure devotional service, follow the rules and regulations, chant sixteen rounds, be engaged always in the service of the Lord, then ultimate gain is that tyaktvā dehaṁ punar naiti mām eti kaunteya. (reads:)
"Pure devotional service automatically puts one in transcendental pleasure."
Transcendental pleasure and material pleasure, there is difference.
Material pleasure means sense gratification, and transcendental pleasure means satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa.
A devotee is satisfied seeing Kṛṣṇa is pleased. That is their satisfaction—through Kṛṣṇa. Material pleasure means direct sense perception, and spiritual pleasure means by, through Kṛṣṇa.
If Kṛṣṇa is satisfied, then the devotee is satisfied. Just like a tree, the leaves and twigs become satisfied through the root of the tree. So Kṛṣṇa is the root.
Kṛṣṇa is the origin of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). So transcendental pleasure mean feeling of pleasure through Kṛṣṇa.
Just like the gopīs and Kṛṣṇa. Gopīs, when they saw Kṛṣṇa is pleased, they became happy, and Kṛṣṇa, when He saw that the gopīs are happy, He become happier.
Again the gopīs sees that Kṛṣṇa is happier, they, again they become more happy. In this way, there is competition of happiness.
The gopīs sees Kṛṣṇa happier; they feel happiness, and Kṛṣṇa sees gopīs happier; Kṛṣṇa feels happiness. This word is described in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta: dui lagi hura huri. This is spiritual competition.
Srila Prabhupada - "Pure devotional service automatically puts one in transcendental pleasure."
In the material pleasure, if I see you happy, I am unhappy; If I see you unhappy, I become happy. This is nature. I may say otherwise, but material nature is, if one is put into difficulty, then I become very happy, and if I am happy, others become envious.
This is material pleasure. Whereas spiritual pleasure means that when one sees Kṛṣṇa is happy, a devotee's happy, the other devotee becomes happier.
That is spiritual pleasure. In the spiritual world there is competition, but when one is advanced, the competitor become happy:
"Oh, he's so advanced. I could not do so." There is no enviousness. In the material world, if one is advanced, other, who is not advanced, he's envious.
This is the difference between spiritual pleasure and material pleasure. It is not difficult to understand. Material pleasure means if you are happy, I become unhappy; if you are unhappy, then I become happy.
This is material pleasure.
And spiritual pleasure means by seeing your happiness, I become happy. By seeing... But there is no distress in the spiritual world. Simply by seeing the happiness of other devotee, another devotee becomes happier.
Conversation -- July 17, 1976, New York:
"Godhead means all viṣṇu-tattva. They are not jīva-tattva. So therefore those who are devotee of God, they are called Vaiṣṇava".
Indian man: In my class I run into lot of arguments, especially from our Indian people, and this is one of the biggest arguments people pose. They say, "Why are you calling yourselves Vaiṣṇavas and not Kṛṣṇayas?"
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Indian man: If I call Kṛṣṇa, I accept Kṛṣṇa as Supreme Personality of Godhead. Then the question comes to me, "Why are you calling yourself Vaiṣṇavas? Why not Kṛṣṇayas?"
Prabhupāda: That already is explained, that Kṛṣṇa or Rāma, Viṣṇu, Nārāyaṇa, They are all viṣṇu-tattva. Therefore Viṣṇu is the common word for everyone. Just like candle. Everyone is candle, but still, this is first candle, this is second candle, this is third candle, like that. So Godhead means all viṣṇu-tattva. They are not jīva-tattva. So therefore those who are devotee of God, they are called Vaiṣṇava.
Hari-śauri: This specific Vaiṣṇava, that refers to Viṣṇu? Worshipers of Viṣṇu?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Viṣṇu asyra devataḥ iti vaiṣṇavaḥ.(?)
Indian man: Throughout Vedas also, Viṣṇu is the yajñeśvara.
Prabhupāda: The supreme, yes.
Indian man: Yajño vai viṣṇuḥ.
Prabhupāda: Viṣṇur ārādhyate. Viṣṇur ārādhyate, nānyat tat-toṣa-kāraṇam. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). Viṣṇor ārādhanam. Ārādhanānāṁ sarveṣāṁ viṣṇor ārādhanaṁ param **. These are the śāstric..., that viṣṇor ārādhana. Kṛṣṇa-ārādhana is also viṣṇu-ārādhana.
Even the leaves CAN fall down from Goloka Vrindavana and Vaikuntha if they choose to do so.
What is Srila Prabhupada’s conclusion on the jivas "original position?"
Why only accept these two comments? -
1 - Srila Prabhupada - "The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha, for it is the eternal abode." (SB 3.16.26 purport)
2 - Srila Prabhupada - "The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead." (SB 4.30.5 purport)
When Srila Prabhupada also made these conclusions -
1 - Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
2 - Srila Prabhupada - ‘’These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das,
3 - Srila Prabhupada - "The jiva is originally with Krsna. But even with Krsna “there is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.” (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami June 1972 Australia)
4 - Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna Happening record album New York 1966.
Srila Prabhupada also says it was NOT from the effulgent impersonal aspect of Brahman the jiva originated even though in other places he said this
Srila Prabhupada - "The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead." (SB 4.30.5 purport)
But then this -
Srila Prabhupada - ''Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness''. Letter to: Revatinandana — Los Angeles 13 June, 1970
Others will also not accept these "other conclusions" Prabhupada also gives us.
They, some from ISKCON who went to the Gaudiya Math who Prabhupada warned us to avoid and keep away from in 1974, foolishly claim such comments by Prabhupada are only said for the benefit of the immature neophytes and faithless upstarts born into a Christian based society who are like children in a kindergarten nursery who believe in the tooth fairy and santa claus as a ploy in his preaching which is silly nonsense that is insulting to Srila Prabhupada's intelligence.
And if that does not work they again claim "We only accept what's in Prabhupada's Books and not his letters, lectures and morning walks" not realizing that many Books are made up from his lectures.
The Brochure (small book) "Crow and Tal Fruit Logic" is an interesting read sent to all Temples.
Crow and Tal Fruit Logic
In 1972, a devotee in Australia (Siddharsvarupa Swami) began saying that the living entities in this material world were originally situated in the brahmajyoti. According to Madhudvisa Prabhu and Caru Prabhu, who were both in Australia at the time, this caused some fairly widespread disturbance.
Srila Prabhupada therefore dictated a response, a typed copy of which was retained by Madhudvisa Prabhu. This is the famous crow and tal fruit message. Madhudvisa has said that it was distributed to the Australian temple presidents.
To say we, the marginal living entities, came from an impersonal origin, is not the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.
Letter to: Revatinandana — Los Angeles 13 June, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - 'The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness.
Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.
The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he is fallen down. It does not matter where a living entity stays. In the material world also there are different stages of living conditions, and to remain in the brahman effulgence is also another phase of that fallen condition.
Just like in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated that conditioned souls by their pious activities are elevated to the higher planetary system, but as soon as the stock of pious activities is finished he again comes down on the earthly planet.
Similarly those who are elevated beyond the planetary system to the brahma effulgence, they are also prone to fall down as much as a living entity from the higher planetary system.
As such those who are thinking that they are liberated by being situated in brahman effulgence are described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam as impurely intelligent.
In other words, they are actually not liberated, and because they are not actually liberated they again come down to the material world as much as a living entity elevated to the higher planetary system comes down to this earthly planet.
So we do not accept anyone elevated to the brahman effulgence as actually liberated.”
What Prabhupada is saying is the jivas were previously active ''before'' entering Maha Vishnu's effulgence, he is saying they never originated from that effulgence even though it may ''appear'' they do because of an enormous time span.
They have actually fallen to that effulgence by entering it at the end of the previous material creation or may have entered it as an impersonalist yogi, they have never originated from there or Maha Vishnu either because long, long, long before that they fell from Vaikuntha
This is explained here –
Revatīnandana: You very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the spirit soul then goes into the brahma-jyotir, he is considered still fallen. Still fallen. Does that means the whole brahma-jyotir is composed of fallen souls? You see my question? If I go there, I'm a jīva soul, and I go to the brahma-jyotir I'm still fallen.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: That means all jīva souls there are also fallen souls.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: That follows?
Srila Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vibhinnāṁśa. Separated parts. Separated parts, vibhinnāṁśa. You can call it fallen.
Revatīnandana: But we usually think of fallen as being forgetful.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. This is also forgetfulness. In the brahma-jyotir you are forgetful still. Because you are... That is stated in the śāstra, anādhṛta yuṣmad anghrayaḥ. Anādhṛta. They do not know how to adore the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is forgetfulness.
Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - ‘’These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna Happening record album New York 1966.
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.
Srila Prabhupada - "In the broader sense everyone comes from Krishna Loka. When one forgets Krishna he is conditioned, when one remembers Krishna he is liberated". (Letter to Mukunda, June 10, 1969)
These comments by Srila Prabhupada will never be ignored or written off, many of Srila Prabhupada's disciples and followers will ALWAYS have full faith in these words.
Srila Prabhupada - “Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, BUT because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence". Letter to Jagadisa 02/27/1970
Srila Prabhupada – ''Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall. Your first question, if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down?
The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at anytime. So there is ALWAYS a chance of falling down by misuse of one’s independence'' Letter to Jagadisa Prabhu, 4/25/1970.
Srila Prabhupada – "Regarding your several questions: Where are the spirit souls coming from? These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha,". (Letter to Jagadisa July 1970)
Srila Prabhupada - "Even if one falls down from Vaikuntha, his relationship with Krishna is never lost, simply forgotten by the influence of maya so it maybe regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position". Letter to Jagadisa 02/27/1970
Srila Prabhupada - "There is no “ NEW” souls. “New'’ and “old'’ are due to this material body, the soul is NEVER born and NEVER dies, so if there is no birth how there can be new soul'' Letter to Jagadisa 7/9/1970.
Srila Prabhupada - "The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new'' Letter to Jagadisa 02/27/1970
Srila Prabhupada - "So, unless there is a possibility of misusing our free will, there is no question of freedom.” (Dialectical Spiritualism, Critique of Descartes)
Srila Prabhupada - "In the broader sense everyone comes from Krishna Loka. When one forgets Krishna he is conditioned, when one remembers Krishna he is liberated". (Letter to Mukunda, June 10, 1969)
Srila Prabhupada - "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately Maya covers us. "Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport". But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going". (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami May 1972 Australia)
Srila Prabhupada - "Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport". But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going". (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami May 1972 Australia)
Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving”
Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire.
Devotee – “In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. You forced Krishna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, “My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there.” But he insists, “Oh, I must go. I must go.” “All right, you go at your risk. That’s all. And you suffer. What can be done?” Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, almighty—therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence. If you persist that “I must go and enjoy independently,” so God says, “All right, you can go.” This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy”. (Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974)
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.
The jiva never originated from the impersonal Brahman, the material creation or Maha Vishnu either.
If you go way, way, way back then you will see we all originally came from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana and chose to enter the material creation, each jiva made that choice long, long, long ago.
Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada – “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila” (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami May 1972 Melbourne Australia)
The following Conversation took place in Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974 between Srila Prabhupada and his disciples.
Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krishna, we have a perfect relationship with Krishna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we’re already serving Krishna?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.”
Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…”
Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire.
Devotee – “In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. You forced Krishna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, “My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there.” But he insists, “Oh, I must go. I must go.” “All right, you go at your risk. That’s all. And you suffer. What can be done?” Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, almighty—therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence. If you persist that “I must go and enjoy independently,” so God says, “All right, you can go.” This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy”. End of quote
Srila Prabhupada – “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila” (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami May 1972 Australia)
Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?”
Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are… Majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”.
Dr. John Mize – “So we’re among the 10%.
Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. Or less than that. In the material, whole material world all the living entities they are… Just like in the prison house, there is some population, but they are not majority. The majority of the population, they are outside the prison house. Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the spiritual world. Only a few fall down”.
Dr. John Mize – “Does Krishna know ahead of time that a soul is going to be foolish and fall?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Krishna? Yes, Krishna may know because He is omniscient”.
Dr. John Mize – “Are more souls falling all the time?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Not all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence… Everyone is not liking to misuse the independence. The same example: Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal. So their shelter must be also constructed. It is very easy to understand. Not that cent percent population will be criminal, but government knows that some of them will be. Otherwise why they construct prison house also? One may say, “Where is the criminal? You are constructing…” Government knows, there will be criminal. So if the ordinary government can know, why God cannot know? Because there is tendency”.
Dr. John Mize – “The origin of that tendency (to fall from Goloka) is…?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Yes”.
Dr. John Mize – “From where does that tendency come?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krishna says,yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.” (Bhagavad Gita as it is. lecture, Mayapur, June 20, 1973)
The above Srila Prabhupada explains here -
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HatiYaOljJ8&feature=share
Although as already explained 90% never choose to forget Krishna because that is their desire and expression of free will.
Yes we know that past Sages and Acharyas say the jivatma can never fall down once they are in Vaikuntha and yes, the fact is the jivas are NOT suppose to leave or fall from Vaikuntha and most never do.
But Prabhupada has further explained this subject matter in detail and has said that sadly some jivas DO choose to leave or fall from Vaikuntha however, he adds, it is only a very small minority who foolishly make that choice, less than 10%.
Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?”
Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”. Los Angeles, June 23, 1975.
Let's clear one thing up, falling into the material world has absolutely nothing to do with maya or the material energy!
This is because maya does not and can not exist in Vaikuntha. The jivatma’s do not even know Maya or the material energy exists!
However, they do have "free will and the ability to choose" and are aware that this quality is “eternally” part and parcel of the jivatma’s makeup and exists in eternally Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.
We do not lose our independence and sense of individual identity once we enter Vaikuntha, we are eternally independent living entities but depend of Krishna Personally or His many Vishnu expansions who provide all facilities in the material creation.
In other words, we are always independent living entities but always depend on Krishna just like the Sun rays cannot exist without the Sun.
The fact is because we can "choose to be with Krishna or reject Him", then there can also be increasing and expanding endeavors of amazing loving exchange due to that “choice”.
This is one of the reasons why the material universe was created - to give "reality" to that choice of rejecting and forgetting Krishna, this is an important point to understand, the living entity CAN also choose to leave Vaikuntha if they want and try to enjoy independently without being conscious of Krishna’s existence.
To enter that place where one can forget Krishna (if they choose) is called the material creation.
The marginal living entity or jivatma must have the free will to choose Krishna instead of just being in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana without no choice.
The point made here is the position of the jivatma in Vaikuntha must be voluntary, they must also want to be there voluntarily serving Krishna.
There is always a choice.
The fact is, who you love and who you choose to serve MUST be voluntary and must be your choose and no one elses including God.
Many cannot understand these facts about the importance of free will, individuality, identity and the sense of self worth of being a unique person who can give selfless ever increasing love or service in their own way to Krishna in the mood of reciprocation.
Just like the Sunrays have no existence or meaning without the Sun and the Sun has no meaning without the sunray
Similarly, there is no meaning to Krishna without the living entities as Srila Prabhupada explains in his "Nectar of Devotion"
The qualities of the individual marginal living entity is based on the importance of the individual jiva's ability to make their own "choices" as the individual independent person they eternally are.
This is called "free will" meaning "one has the ability to choose".
Once again, to be truly free there MUST be choice, meaning even choosing to be in Vaikuntha serving the Lord is also the Jivas choice and NOT Krishna's or ever forced by Krishna.
This means, if one chooses, they can forget Krishna and enter the "material creation."
The jiva MUST have the right to "remembering Krishna or forgetting Krishna or choose right or wrong
Such choice to leave Goloka Vrindavana has nothing to do with Maya because Maya and the material energy does not exist in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.
Therefore Maya CANNOT ever tempt the jivatma in one's spiritual body in the perpetual aspect of the Spiritual Sky.
Without the jivatma’s being able to choose to be with Krishna or not be with Him, then there can never be genuine love, service or devotion.
Krishna would never say -
"Once the jiva enters Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana I promise they will NEVER again enter the material creation with selfish desires"
No, that is NOT Krishna's position to make choices for the marginal living entity because He gave the jivatma the right to ALWAYS make their own decisions and choices!!
Only fools, no matter how great a devotee they are SUPPOSE to be, would believe the nonsense that once reaching Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana the jivatma will never ever again fall down.
Actually this IS true if the jivatma makes that choice to not fall down.
This is what past great devotees and Acharays are really saying and mean-
"Once reaching Goloka Vrindavana or Vaikuntha, the jivatma will never again fall down to the material creation "IF THAT IS THEIR"CHOICE"
Srila Prabhupada has said to force love is called rape.
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? End Quote
The jiva also did NOT generate from an inactive clear sheet of consciousness that is expanding and growing with new souls.
This nonsense idea is impersonal because what condition was the individual soul (jivatma) in before it was generated, appeared or created?
Actually, there is NO creation of the living entity because the soul is beginningless!!
When the word ”impersonal origin” is used it means the non existent or inactive state of the jiva as an individual and then from where the soul is generated which really means where the soul originates from.
Some say, ”they generate from a ”clear sheet of consciousness that is growing and producing new souls” however it is this ”impersonal” concept that Prabhupada rejects –
Srila Prabhupada - "There is no “ NEW” souls. “New'’ and “old'’ are due to this material body, the soul is NEVER born and NEVER dies, so if there is no birth how there can be new soul'' Letter to Jagadisa 7/9/1970.
Jivas are NOT generated from a clear sheet of consciousness and there are NO new souls, all souls have always been and NEVER created nor can they be annihilated”
Srila Prabhupada rejects the concept that ”souls are generated from a clear sheet of consciousness”
Also Prabhupada explains their is no origin to the jiva tattva and they fall from Vaikuntha to Maha Vishnu and the He plants them in the material creation, also no jiva tattva ”actually” originates from Balarama or Maha Vishnu rather they go through them.
After some jivas choose to leave Vaikuntha they enter the Body of Maha Vishnu and rests there, it only appears Maha Vishnu created the jivas but actually they only go through Him after leaving Vaikuntha He never creates or generates any jivas.
The jivas were never created or generated by Balarama or Krishna because they have ”always been”, they have always existed only the material world is created.
Sastra says Bhagavad Gita 2.20 – ‘’For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval’’. the word ”unborn” is very clear meaning the jiva was never born.
Also BG 2.12: Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
The jivas were never created.
Krishna is the maintainer of all existence in Goloka and Vaikuntha and His material ”creation”.
Both Krishna and the jivas are eternal and always exist together like the sun and the sunrays, one cannot exist without the other.
The jivas are nothing without Krishna and Krishna has no meaning without the jivas as Srila Prabhupada explains in ”Nectar of Devotion”
Both are equally eternal only in the sense of there is no beginning but Krishna is always the Supreme Lord and maintainer of everything
Krishna has 100% of His own qualities, Vishnu has 93% of Krishna’s qualities, Shiva has 84% of Krishna’s qualities and the jivas like you and me have 78% of Krishna’s qualities.
Both Krishna and the jivas are eternal and always exist together like the sun and the sunrays, they are NOT created by Krishna because they were never ”born” they were never ”created” like Krishna the jivas are unborn as sastra tells us.
Like Krishna the jivas have ALWAYS existed just like the sunrays exist with the sun, this is how the jivas also eternally exist.
Krishna NEVER created the jivas, Why? But He is the Supreme Lord, yes true but the individual jivas were never created because they are eternally part of Him like the sunrays are part of the sun, they exist together and are inseparable.
To say we, the marginal living entities, came from an impersonal origin, is not the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.
Letter to: Revatinandana — Los Angeles 13 June, 1970
Srila Prabhupada – ‘The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness.
Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.
The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he is fallen down.
It does not matter where a living entity stays. In the material world also there are different stages of living conditions, and to remain in the brahman effulgence is also another phase of that fallen condition.
Just like in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated that conditioned souls by their pious activities are elevated to the higher planetary system, but as soon as the stock of pious activities is finished he again comes down on the earthly planet.
Similarly those who are elevated beyond the planetary system to the brahman effulgence, they are also prone to fall down as much as a living entity from the higher planetary system.
As such those who are thinking that they are liberated by being situated in brahman effulgence are described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam as impurely intelligent.
In other words, they are actually not liberated, and because they are not actually liberated they again come down to the material world as much as a living entity elevated to the higher planetary system comes down to this earthly planet.
So we do not accept anyone elevated to the brahman effulgence as actually liberated.”
The Jivatma never originated from the impersonal Brahman, the material creation or Maha Vishnu.
If you go way, way, way back then you will see we all originally came from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana and chose to enter the material creation.
Each jiva made that choice long, long, long ago.
Srila Prabhupada – “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila” (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami May 1972 Melbourne Australia)
In Srimad Bhagavatam the fall of the jiva from Vaikuntha to the material creation is explained.
This is found in the 4th Canto where the Supreme Lord is disguised as a brahmana -
Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 4.28.53,
''The brāhmaṇa continued: My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can't you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world''. End of quote.
