Why only accept these two comments? -
1 - Srila Prabhupada - "The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha, for it is the eternal abode." (SB 3.16.26 purport)
2 - Srila Prabhupada - "The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead." (SB 4.30.5 purport)
When Srila Prabhupada also made these conclusions -
1 - Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
2 - Srila Prabhupada - ‘’These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das,
3 - Srila Prabhupada - "The jiva is originally with Krsna. But even with Krsna “there is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.” (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami June 1972 Australia)
4 - Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna Happening record album New York 1966.
Srila Prabhupada also says it was NOT from the effulgent impersonal aspect of Brahman the jiva originated even though in other places he said this
Srila Prabhupada - "The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead." (SB 4.30.5 purport)
But then this -
Srila Prabhupada - ''Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness''. Letter to: Revatinandana — Los Angeles 13 June, 1970
Others will also not accept these "other conclusions" Prabhupada also gives us.
They, some from ISKCON who went to the Gaudiya Math who Prabhupada warned us to avoid and keep away from in 1974, foolishly claim such comments by Prabhupada are only said for the benefit of the immature neophytes and faithless upstarts born into a Christian based society who are like children in a kindergarten nursery who believe in the tooth fairy and santa claus as a ploy in his preaching which is silly nonsense that is insulting to Srila Prabhupada's intelligence.
And if that does not work they again claim "We only accept what's in Prabhupada's Books and not his letters, lectures and morning walks" not realizing that many Books are made up from his lectures.
The Brochure (small book) "Crow and Tal Fruit Logic" is an interesting read sent to all Temples.
Crow and Tal Fruit Logic
In 1972, a devotee in Australia (Siddharsvarupa Swami) began saying that the living entities in this material world were originally situated in the brahmajyoti. According to Madhudvisa Prabhu and Caru Prabhu, who were both in Australia at the time, this caused some fairly widespread disturbance.
Srila Prabhupada therefore dictated a response, a typed copy of which was retained by Madhudvisa Prabhu. This is the famous crow and tal fruit message. Madhudvisa has said that it was distributed to the Australian temple presidents.
To say we, the marginal living entities, came from an impersonal origin, is not the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.
Letter to: Revatinandana — Los Angeles 13 June, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - 'The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness.
Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.
The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he is fallen down. It does not matter where a living entity stays. In the material world also there are different stages of living conditions, and to remain in the brahman effulgence is also another phase of that fallen condition.
Just like in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated that conditioned souls by their pious activities are elevated to the higher planetary system, but as soon as the stock of pious activities is finished he again comes down on the earthly planet.
Similarly those who are elevated beyond the planetary system to the brahma effulgence, they are also prone to fall down as much as a living entity from the higher planetary system.
As such those who are thinking that they are liberated by being situated in brahman effulgence are described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam as impurely intelligent.
In other words, they are actually not liberated, and because they are not actually liberated they again come down to the material world as much as a living entity elevated to the higher planetary system comes down to this earthly planet.
So we do not accept anyone elevated to the brahman effulgence as actually liberated.”
What Prabhupada is saying is the jivas were previously active ''before'' entering Maha Vishnu's effulgence, he is saying they never originated from that effulgence even though it may ''appear'' they do because of an enormous time span.
They have actually fallen to that effulgence by entering it at the end of the previous material creation or may have entered it as an impersonalist yogi, they have never originated from there or Maha Vishnu either because long, long, long before that they fell from Vaikuntha
This is explained here –
Revatīnandana: You very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the spirit soul then goes into the brahma-jyotir, he is considered still fallen. Still fallen. Does that means the whole brahma-jyotir is composed of fallen souls? You see my question? If I go there, I'm a jīva soul, and I go to the brahma-jyotir I'm still fallen.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: That means all jīva souls there are also fallen souls.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: That follows?
Srila Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vibhinnāṁśa. Separated parts. Separated parts, vibhinnāṁśa. You can call it fallen.
Revatīnandana: But we usually think of fallen as being forgetful.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. This is also forgetfulness. In the brahma-jyotir you are forgetful still. Because you are... That is stated in the śāstra, anādhṛta yuṣmad anghrayaḥ. Anādhṛta. They do not know how to adore the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is forgetfulness.
Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - ‘’These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna Happening record album New York 1966.
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.
Srila Prabhupada - "In the broader sense everyone comes from Krishna Loka. When one forgets Krishna he is conditioned, when one remembers Krishna he is liberated". (Letter to Mukunda, June 10, 1969)
These comments by Srila Prabhupada will never be ignored or written off, many of Srila Prabhupada's disciples and followers will ALWAYS have full faith in these words.
Srila Prabhupada - “Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, BUT because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence". Letter to Jagadisa 02/27/1970
Srila Prabhupada – ''Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall. Your first question, if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down?
The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at anytime. So there is ALWAYS a chance of falling down by misuse of one’s independence'' Letter to Jagadisa Prabhu, 4/25/1970.
Srila Prabhupada – "Regarding your several questions: Where are the spirit souls coming from? These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha,". (Letter to Jagadisa July 1970)
Srila Prabhupada - "Even if one falls down from Vaikuntha, his relationship with Krishna is never lost, simply forgotten by the influence of maya so it maybe regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position". Letter to Jagadisa 02/27/1970
Srila Prabhupada - "There is no “ NEW” souls. “New'’ and “old'’ are due to this material body, the soul is NEVER born and NEVER dies, so if there is no birth how there can be new soul'' Letter to Jagadisa 7/9/1970.
Srila Prabhupada - "The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new'' Letter to Jagadisa 02/27/1970
Srila Prabhupada - "So, unless there is a possibility of misusing our free will, there is no question of freedom.” (Dialectical Spiritualism, Critique of Descartes)
Srila Prabhupada - "In the broader sense everyone comes from Krishna Loka. When one forgets Krishna he is conditioned, when one remembers Krishna he is liberated". (Letter to Mukunda, June 10, 1969)
Srila Prabhupada - "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately Maya covers us. "Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport". But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going". (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami May 1972 Australia)
Srila Prabhupada - "Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport". But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going". (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami May 1972 Australia)
Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving”
Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire.
Devotee – “In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. You forced Krishna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, “My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there.” But he insists, “Oh, I must go. I must go.” “All right, you go at your risk. That’s all. And you suffer. What can be done?” Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, almighty—therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence. If you persist that “I must go and enjoy independently,” so God says, “All right, you can go.” This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy”. (Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974)
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.
The jiva never originated from the impersonal Brahman, the material creation or Maha Vishnu either.
If you go way, way, way back then you will see we all originally came from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana and chose to enter the material creation, each jiva made that choice long, long, long ago.
Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada – “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila” (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami May 1972 Melbourne Australia)
The following Conversation took place in Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974 between Srila Prabhupada and his disciples.
Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krishna, we have a perfect relationship with Krishna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we’re already serving Krishna?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.”
Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…”
Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire.
Devotee – “In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. You forced Krishna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, “My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there.” But he insists, “Oh, I must go. I must go.” “All right, you go at your risk. That’s all. And you suffer. What can be done?” Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, almighty—therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence. If you persist that “I must go and enjoy independently,” so God says, “All right, you can go.” This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy”. End of quote
Srila Prabhupada – “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila” (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami May 1972 Australia)
Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?”
Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are… Majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”.
Dr. John Mize – “So we’re among the 10%.
Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. Or less than that. In the material, whole material world all the living entities they are… Just like in the prison house, there is some population, but they are not majority. The majority of the population, they are outside the prison house. Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the spiritual world. Only a few fall down”.
Dr. John Mize – “Does Krishna know ahead of time that a soul is going to be foolish and fall?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Krishna? Yes, Krishna may know because He is omniscient”.
Dr. John Mize – “Are more souls falling all the time?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Not all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence… Everyone is not liking to misuse the independence. The same example: Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal. So their shelter must be also constructed. It is very easy to understand. Not that cent percent population will be criminal, but government knows that some of them will be. Otherwise why they construct prison house also? One may say, “Where is the criminal? You are constructing…” Government knows, there will be criminal. So if the ordinary government can know, why God cannot know? Because there is tendency”.
Dr. John Mize – “The origin of that tendency (to fall from Goloka) is…?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Yes”.
Dr. John Mize – “From where does that tendency come?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krishna says,yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.” (Bhagavad Gita as it is. lecture, Mayapur, June 20, 1973)
The above Srila Prabhupada explains here -
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HatiYaOljJ8&feature=share
Although as already explained 90% never choose to forget Krishna because that is their desire and expression of free will.
Yes we know that past Sages and Acharyas say the jivatma can never fall down once they are in Vaikuntha and yes, the fact is the jivas are NOT suppose to leave or fall from Vaikuntha and most never do.
But Prabhupada has further explained this subject matter in detail and has said that sadly some jivas DO choose to leave or fall from Vaikuntha however, he adds, it is only a very small minority who foolishly make that choice, less than 10%.
Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?”
Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”. Los Angeles, June 23, 1975.
Let's clear one thing up, falling into the material world has absolutely nothing to do with maya or the material energy!
This is because maya does not and can not exist in Vaikuntha. The jivatma’s do not even know Maya or the material energy exists!
However, they do have "free will and the ability to choose" and are aware that this quality is “eternally” part and parcel of the jivatma’s makeup and exists in eternally Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.
We do not lose our independence and sense of individual identity once we enter Vaikuntha, we are eternally independent living entities but depend of Krishna Personally or His many Vishnu expansions who provide all facilities in the material creation.
In other words, we are always independent living entities but always depend on Krishna just like the Sun rays cannot exist without the Sun.
The fact is because we can "choose to be with Krishna or reject Him", then there can also be increasing and expanding endeavors of amazing loving exchange due to that “choice”.
This is one of the reasons why the material universe was created - to give "reality" to that choice of rejecting and forgetting Krishna, this is an important point to understand, the living entity CAN also choose to leave Vaikuntha if they want and try to enjoy independently without being conscious of Krishna’s existence.
To enter that place where one can forget Krishna (if they choose) is called the material creation.
The marginal living entity or jivatma must have the free will to choose Krishna instead of just being in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana without no choice.
The point made here is the position of the jivatma in Vaikuntha must be voluntary, they must also want to be there voluntarily serving Krishna.
There is always a choice.
The fact is, who you love and who you choose to serve MUST be voluntary and must be your choose and no one elses including God.
Many cannot understand these facts about the importance of free will, individuality, identity and the sense of self worth of being a unique person who can give selfless ever increasing love or service in their own way to Krishna in the mood of reciprocation.
Just like the Sunrays have no existence or meaning without the Sun and the Sun has no meaning without the sunray
Similarly, there is no meaning to Krishna without the living entities as Srila Prabhupada explains in his "Nectar of Devotion"
The qualities of the individual marginal living entity is based on the importance of the individual jiva's ability to make their own "choices" as the individual independent person they eternally are.
This is called "free will" meaning "one has the ability to choose".
Once again, to be truly free there MUST be choice, meaning even choosing to be in Vaikuntha serving the Lord is also the Jivas choice and NOT Krishna's or ever forced by Krishna.
This means, if one chooses, they can forget Krishna and enter the "material creation."
The jiva MUST have the right to "remembering Krishna or forgetting Krishna or choose right or wrong
Such choice to leave Goloka Vrindavana has nothing to do with Maya because Maya and the material energy does not exist in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.
Therefore Maya CANNOT ever tempt the jivatma in one's spiritual body in the perpetual aspect of the Spiritual Sky.
Without the jivatma’s being able to choose to be with Krishna or not be with Him, then there can never be genuine love, service or devotion.
Krishna would never say -
"Once the jiva enters Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana I promise they will NEVER again enter the material creation with selfish desires"
No, that is NOT Krishna's position to make choices for the marginal living entity because He gave the jivatma the right to ALWAYS make their own decisions and choices!!
Only fools, no matter how great a devotee they are SUPPOSE to be, would believe the nonsense that once reaching Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana the jivatma will never ever again fall down.
Actually this IS true if the jivatma makes that choice to not fall down.
This is what past great devotees and Acharays are really saying and mean-
"Once reaching Goloka Vrindavana or Vaikuntha, the jivatma will never again fall down to the material creation "IF THAT IS THEIR"CHOICE"
Srila Prabhupada has said to force love is called rape.
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.
In Srimad Bhagavatam the fall of the jiva from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana to the material creation is explained.
This is found in the 4th Canto where the Supreme Lord is disguised as a brahmana -
Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 4.28.53,
''The brāhmaṇa continued: My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can't you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world''.
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ReplyDeleteWonderful explanation. Thank you
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