Why only accept these two comments by Prabhupada quoted by those who think that once one is in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana they can never leave?
The fact is, yes 90% of the jivatmas NEVER choose to leave and go it alone by entering the decaying material creation of repeated birth and death.
1 - Srila Prabhupada - "The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha, for it is the eternal abode." (SB 3.16.26 purport)
2 - Srila Prabhupada - "The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead." (SB 4.30.5 purport)
When Srila Prabhupada also made these conclusions-
1 - Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
2 - Srila Prabhupada - ‘’These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das,
3 - Srila Prabhupada - "The jiva is originally with Krsna. But even with Krsna “there is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.” (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami June 1972 Australia)
4 - Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna Happening record album New York 1966.
Srila Prabhupada also says it was NOT from the effulgent impersonal aspect of Brahman the jiva originated even though in other places he said this
Srila Prabhupada - "The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead." (SB 4.30.5 purport)
But then this -
Srila Prabhupada - ''Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness''. Letter to: Revatinandana — Los Angeles 13 June, 1970
The jiva did NOT generate from a clear sheet of consciousness that is expanding and growing with new souls.
This nonsense idea is impersonal because what condition was the individual soul (jivatma) in before it was generated, appeared or created?
Actually, there is NO creation of the living entity because the soul is beginningless!!
When the word ”impersonal origin” is used it means the non existent or inactive state of the jiva as an individual and then from where the soul is generated which really means where the soul originates from.
Some say, ”they generate from a ”clear sheet of consciousness that is growing and producing new souls” however it is this ”impersonal” concept that Prabhupada rejects –
Srila Prabhupada - "There is no “ NEW” souls. “New'’ and “old'’ are due to this material body, the soul is NEVER born and NEVER dies, so if there is no birth how there can be new soul'' Letter to Jagadisa 7/9/1970.
Jivas are NOT generated from a clear sheet of consciousness and there are NO new souls, all souls have always been and NEVER created nor can they be annihilated”
Srila Prabhupada rejects the concept that ”souls are generated from a clear sheet of consciousness”
Also Prabhupada explains their is no origin to the jiva tattva and they fall from Vaikuntha to Maha Vishnu and then He plants them in the material creation and provides all the unlimited variety of material bodily vessels or containers.
Maha Vishnu provides all the material facilities. No jiva souls originate from Him, they infact enter His material creation originally coming from Vaikuntha for the jivas to experience all their desires.
He does not like doing this but does not interfere with the choices of all jivas, Maha Vishnu just provides all the material bodily pathways and material fascilities.
Therefore it must be made clear that no jiva tattvas ”actually” originate from Balarama or Maha Vishnu, rather they choose to enter their material creation from Vaikuntha which is 1/4 of the Spiritual Sky.
After some jivas (less than 10%) choose to leave Vaikuntha, they enter the Body of Maha Vishnu and rests there, it only appears Maha Vishnu created the jivas but actually they only go through Him after leaving Vaikuntha, He never creates or generates any jivas.
The jivas were never created or generated by Balarama or Krishna because they have ”always been”, they have always existed only the material world is created.
Sastra says Bhagavad Gita 2.20 – ‘’For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval’’. the word ”unborn” is very clear meaning the jiva was never born.
Also BG 2.12: Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
The jivas were never created.
Krishna is the maintainer of all existence in Goloka and Vaikuntha and His material ”creation”.
Both Krishna and the jivas are eternal and always exist together like the sun and the sunrays, one cannot exist without the other.
The jivas are nothing without Krishna and Krishna has no meaning without the jivas as Srila Prabhupada explains in ”Nectar of Devotion”
Both are equally eternal only in the sense of there is no beginning but Krishna is always the Supreme Lord and maintainer of everything.
Krishna has 100% of His own qualities, Vishnu has 93% of Krishna’s qualities, Shiva has 84% of Krishna’s qualities and the jivas like you and me have 78% of Krishna’s qualities.
Both Krishna and the jivas are eternal and always exist together like the sun and the sunrays, they are NOT created by Krishna because they were never ”born” they were never ”created” like Krishna the jivas are unborn as sastra tells us.
Like Krishna the jivas have ALWAYS existed just like the sunrays exist with the sun, this is how the jivas also eternally exist.
Krishna NEVER created the jivas, Why? But He is the Supreme Lord, yes true but the individual jivas were never created because they are eternally part of Him like the sunrays are part of the sun, they exist together and are inseparable.
To say we, the marginal living entities, came from an impersonal origin, is not the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.
Srila Prabhupada – "Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness". Los Angeles 13 June, 1970
Srila Prabhupada – "So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he is fallen down. It does not matter where a living entity stays. In the material world also there are different stages of living conditions, and to remain in the brahman effulgence is also another phase of that fallen condition". Los Angeles 13 June, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - "Just like in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated that conditioned souls by their pious activities are elevated to the higher planetary system, but as soon as the stock of pious activities is finished he again comes down on the earthly planet. Similarly those who are elevated beyond the planetary system to the brahman effulgence, they are also prone to fall down as much as a living entity from the higher planetary system".Los Angeles 13 June, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - "Those who are think they are liberated by being situated in brahman effulgence are described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam as impurely intelligent. In other words, they are actually not liberated, and because they are not actually liberated they again come down to the material world as much as a living entity elevated to the higher planetary system comes down to this earthly planet.Los Angeles 13 June, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - "So we do not accept anyone elevated to the brahman effulgence as actually liberated.” Los Angeles 13 June, 1970
Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.
Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?
Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.
Several of the most profound answers regarding our fall from Vaikuntha were written to Jagadisa dasa, Temple president of Toronto.
Here are those comments by Prabhupada -
Srila Prabhupada – ''Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall.
Your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down?
The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at anytime.
So there is always a chance of falling down by misuse of one’s independence'' Letter to Jagadisa Prabhu, 4/25/1970. End of quote
Srila Prabhupada – Regarding your several questions:
Where are the spirit souls coming from that are taking microbe bodies? It is not a matter of any particular body. These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities. There is no new soul. New' and old are due to this material body.
But the soul is NEVER born and NEVER dies, so if there is no birth how there can be new soul'' Letter to Jagadisa 7/9/1970 . End of quote
Srila Prabhupada - “Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities.
Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence.
But his relationship with Krishna is never lost, simply forgotten by the influence of maya so it maybe regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position.
The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new'' Letter to Jagadisa 02/27/1970 End of quote
Srila Prabhupada - "So, unless there is a possibility of misusing our free will, there is no question of freedom.” (Dialectical Spiritualism, Critique of Descartes)
Srila Prabhupada - "In the broader sense everyone comes from Krishna Loka. When one forgets Krishna he is conditioned, when one remembers Krishna he is liberated". (Letter to Mukunda, June 10, 1969)
Srila Prabhupada - "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately Maya covers us. "Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport". But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going". (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami May 1972 Australia)
Srila Prabhupada - "Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport". But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going". (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami May 1972 Australia)
Srila Prabhupada – ''Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall. Your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at anytime. So there is always a chance of falling down by misuse of one’s independence'' Letter to Jagadisa Prabhu, 4/25/1970. End of quote
Srila Prabhupada – Regarding your several questions: Where are the spirit souls coming from that are taking microbe bodies? It is not a matter of any particular body. These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities. Letter to Jagadisa 7/9/1970 . End of quote
Srila Prabhupada - "There is no “ NEW” soul. “New'’ and “old'’ are due to this material body. But the soul is NEVER born and NEVER dies, so if there is no birth how there can be new soul'' Letter to Jagadisa 7/9/1970 . End of quote
Srila Prabhupada - “Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence". Letter to Jagadisa 02/27/1970 End of quote
Srila Prabhupada - "Even if one falls down from Vaikuntha, his relationship with Krishna is never lost, simply forgotten by the influence of maya so it maybe regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position". Letter to Jagadisa 02/27/1970 End of quote
Srila Prabhupada - "The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new'' Letter to Jagadisa 02/27/1970 End of quote
Srila Prabhupada - "So, unless there is a possibility of misusing our free will, there is no question of freedom.” (Dialectical Spiritualism, Critique of Descartes)
Srila Prabhupada - "In the broader sense everyone comes from Krishna Loka. When one forgets Krishna he is conditioned, when one remembers Krishna he is liberated". (Letter to Mukunda, June 10, 1969)
Srila Prabhupada - "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately Maya covers us. "Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport". But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going". (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami May 1972 Australia)
Srila Prabhupada - ''When the superior energy is in contact with inferior energy, it becomes an incompatible situation. But when the supreme marginal potency is in contact with the spiritual potency, Harā, it becomes the happy, normal condition of the living entity''. The "Happening Album" 1966 New York USA
The following Conversation took place in Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974 between Srila Prabhupada and his disciples.
Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krishna, we have a perfect relationship with Krishna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we’re already serving Krishna?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.”
Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…”
Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire.
Devotee – “In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. You forced Krishna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, “My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there.” But he insists, “Oh, I must go. I must go.” “All right, you go at your risk. That’s all. And you suffer. What can be done?” Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, almighty—therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence. If you persist that “I must go and enjoy independently,” so God says, “All right, you can go.” This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy”. End of quote
So is there a place in the Spiritual World from where we can never fall down from?
Answer - It is not based on a "place you can never fall down from" that can keep you in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana, it is based on free will and ‘’your choice’’.
If you were forced to stay there then how can there be love? Remaining in Vaikuntha "eternally" is based on the conscious awareness and choice of the jivatma as a unique selfless individual, independent person.
This gives one their own sense of identity and experiencing one's own individuality above "mindless" surrender that has no individual expression and therefore no ability to love.
It is these qualities that makes one an individual ''person'' who realizes their own sense of identity, responsibility and unique character that allows one to experience the ability to make one's own individual choices and contribute as an individual and not as an impersonal collective that denies the individuality and contributions of each jivatma
Mindless impersonal surrender is the real hell because one is simply programmed to be a "yes man or women" in a collective of oneness where everyone thinks the same.
How can one give and accept love under these conditions where individuality and healthy competition to win Krishna's extra affection is extinguished?
Even in selfless emotions of loving devotion to Krishna, the jivatma NEVER looses that unique ability of free will and self expression where one is "personally" always aware of their choice of selflessly serve to Krishna via the servants of the servants of Krishna.
The fact that one does not fall from God's personal Kingdom is the responsibility of the individual jivatma, not Gods.
It is your choice, it is your free will to choose and nobody else including Krishna, although it is a fact 90% of all living entities do NOT fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana because they "choose NOT to".
That "choice" is ALWAYS with the marginal living entities or jivatma, not even Krishna will force surrender and if He did then how can there be love?
You cannot force others to love you with the barrel of a gun Prabhupada has told us.
The jivatma soul or marginal living entity has 78% of Krishna's quantities which puts them in the realm of having "a sense of independence, identity, personality, individuality and the ability to choose.
This means the jivatma has the ability to agree or not agree even with Krishna.
The sense of individuality allows the jivatma the right to choose Krishna or choose to be separate from Krishna.
Remember Maya and the material energy does not exist in Vaikuntha so that is unknown to the jivatma.
However, "free will, individuality, having independence, experiencing a unique sense of individual self worth and the ability to express all these qualities DOES exist in the makeup of the jivatma in Vaikuntha.
And if all those abilities are taken away, then we lose the ability to give and accept love, we become no better than a stone or mindless robot.
Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, almighty—therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence”. Conversation in Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974.
No one can force you to stay in Vaikuntha, that choice must "always" be the jivatmas (our choice). For love to truly exist with the jiva-tattva (jivatma) we MUST have the the right to choose to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana at anytime.
And the fact is a very small minority do choose to leave, regardless of how some have interpreted past Sages and Acharyas.
To say those who enter Vaikuntha will "never ever again fall down" IS true - ‘’that is, for those who choose NOT to fall down".
In other words, if the jiva wants to leave they certainly can.
To make a blanket comment that "not even the leaves fall and leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana" seems to not take into consideration the free will of the jiva tattva.
These comments from past Sages and Acharyas that say the jiva can never fall down once in Vaikuntha may have been said for many reasons, to give faith among aspiring devotees and neophytes to encourage them to understand that their constitutional position IS to NEVER ‘’choose’’ to leave Vaikuntha!
And NEVER ‘’desire’’ to enter the material world once they are in or returned to Vaikuntha.
However to come to the material world is ultimately the jiva tattva's choice and Krishna does not interfere even though Krishna has promised there is no return to the material creation.
The fact is there is if the jiva tattva wants to return, this is Prabhupada's point here -
Acyutananda – “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns. He can return?”
Srila Prabhupada – “If he likes he can return”.
Guru-kripa – “How is it that one can become envious of Krishna?”
Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976) End of quote
Sadly others will not accept these amazing very clear conclusions Prabhupada also gives us.
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