Tatastha-sakti fully explained.

What is Tatastha-sakti and its correct meaning?

The jiva soul first falls from the "permanent state" (Vaikuntha) to the "conditioned state" (the material creation). 

The "conditioned state" also is the inactive dormant state of the jiva soul within the Impersonal Brahmajyoti.

Only the "conditioned state" in the material creation, and the dormant inactive state within the impersonal Brahmajyoti, is where the jiva tattva soul is referred to as "Tatastha-sakti" Srila Prabhupada explains below.

Srila Prabhupada - "So this material world is the taṭastha (conditioned) characteristics, and the spiritual world is the "personal" characteristics. So our effort is to get out of this taṭastha (conditioned) characteristics and to enter the permanent characteristics. That is called spiritual elevation". (Lecture on CC Madhya-lila 20.354-358 — New York, December 28, 1966)

Srila Prabhupada - "Because the individual soul is apt to fall down sometimes under the clutches of māyā, it is called Taṭastha-śakti. Just like in the seaside the shore, the beach, sometimes you see it is covered by water and sometimes it is land; similarly, when we are covered by māyā, that is our jīva-bhūta stage, and when there is no more covering, that is brahma-bhūta stage. When we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, then we are brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20), and when we are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, we are materially conscious, that is māyā".(Lecture on BG 7.4-5 -- Bombay, March 30, 1971)

"Tatastha sakti" is NOT a place in the Cosmos where souls originate from, such an idea is nonsense Prabhupada told us because they have no origin.

The "marginal plane" is NOT a place where souls where generated from or originate from, the "marginal plane" is another name for the eternal individual jiva tattva souls (marginal living entities) that have ALWAYS existed.

Therefore no jiva souls were ever created, or literally were "generated from the marginal plane" because they have ALWAYS existed AS the marginal plane Bhagavad-Gita teaches us.

Tatastha sakti is another name for the "marginal living entity (jiva tattva soul) that also means the jiva soul can choose this side of being with Krishna, or that side of being in the material creation. 

Only in the material creation and impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman are the jiva souls known as tatastha sakti.

The jiva soul's do NOT originate from the marginal plane because they ARE the marginal plane that has ALWAYS existed.

No jiva soul originates from a dormant inactive impersonal condition some call Tatastha-sakti either as some teach, their impersonal understanding is NOT the real meaning of Tatastha-sakti.

Srila Prabhupada – "Those who are in the dormant brahman effulgence are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness". (Los Angeles 13 June, 1970)

Therefore no jiva soul literally originates from Tatastha-sakti (the marginal plane) because it is NOT a place, it is what the jiva tattva souls are known as eternally without beginning or end, "the marginal living entities".

Another meaning of Tatastha-sakti is the jiva soul has the ability to accept or reject Krishna due to free will however, so does all other names of the jiva tattva.

The fact is "free will" is part and parcel of the jiva soul's constitutional make up and included in their individual identity.

According to Prabhupada, the jiva soul is ONLY called Tatastha-sakti when they fall to the material creation and impersonal Brahmajyoti.

So as already explained, there is no such thing as new souls originating from the marginal plane or are generated from Tatastha-sakti as Bhagavad Gita Chapter 2 Text 20 teaches-

''For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain''. (Bhagavad Gita Chapter 2 Text 20)

In other words, the jiva tattva (the marginal living entity), have ALWAYS existed without beginning or end as individual jiva souls, so it is nonsense impersonalism to believe the jiva soul originates from Tatastha-sakti.

For example, those who claim souls are ''generated from a clear sheet of consciousness'' are preaching impersonalism because their bogus philosophy claims there was once a time when the jiva soul did NOT exist as a conscious individual active living entity.

Srila Prabhupada - "There is no “ NEW” soul. “New'’ and “old'’ are due to this material body. But the soul is NEVER born and NEVER dies, so if there is no birth how there can be new soul'' (Letter to Jagadisa 7/9/1970)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘’So Lord Caitanya gives evidences from the Mahā-purāṇam, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that the Supreme Lord, the Absolute Truth, is analysed in two characteristics. What are they? They are the "personal" characteristics and "taṭastha" the conditioned marginal characteristics" (Lecture on CC Madhya-lila 20.354-358 — New York, December 28, 1966)

Srila Prabhupada explains further – "Taṭastha means they are sometimes manifested and they are not sometimes manifested. So this material world is the taṭastha (conditioned) characteristics, and the spiritual world is the "personal" characteristics. So our effort is to get out of this taṭastha (conditioned state of the marginal living entity) characteristics and to enter the permanent characteristics. That is called spiritual elevation. We should NOT remain in the "conditioned state" (material creation or impersonal Brahmajyoti) of tatastha sakti, but we should go to the "permanent state’’ (Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana). (Lecture on CC Madhya-lila 20.354-358 — New York, December 28, 1966)

Srila Prabhupada is saying here that in Goloka Vrindavana the jiva tattva is NOT known as Tatastha sakti (the conditioned state of the marginal living entity) even though technically they are known as Tatastha-sakti also (but ONLY in the material creation as a conditioned jiva soul) 

They are NOT called Tatastha sakti in Goloka Vrindavana or Vaikuntha, this is Prabhupada's point, he call their "original" position ”permanent characteristics”

This subject is very difficult to understand for none devotees or impersonalists.

Therefore Tatastha sakti is a name for the jiva tattva in the material creation and dormant impersonal brahman, and also means the jiva soul has the ability to choose this side, of being with Krishna, or that side, of being in the mahat-tattva material creation.

So it is clear no jiva souls originate from Tatastha because it is NOT a place but a condition of the jiva soul.

In fact the jiva soul falls from the "permanent state" in Vaikuntha, to the "conditioned state" in the material creation or the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

That fallen condition of the jiva soul (marginal living entity) is also known as Tatastha-sakti.

In other words, Tatastha-sakti is simply a condition the jiva tattva soul falls too.

There are 160 names for the jiva-tattva or the marginal energy like baddha–jiva, siddha-jiva, tatastha-jiva, jiva-tattva, jiva-sakti, jiva bhutah etc that each describe the marginal living entity (jiva soul) in a particular positional state.

For example, tatastha sakti or jiva-tatastha refers to the jiva-tattva’s sovereignty as an individual living being while in the material creation or merged in the impersonal brahmajyoti.

So clearly NO jiva-tattva comes from tatastha-sakti because there is no such place, it is only a conditional state of the jiva soul.

The jiva souls are only tatastha-sakti while in the material creation, or while merged as an individual dormant unit in the impersonal Brahman (Brahmajyoti)

The individual jiva soul is eternal and therefore was NEVER created or originated from anywhere.

The jiva soul is also known as the jiva tattva or ,"marginal energy" in the material creation and the impersonal brahmajyoti.

But also has other names describing its position too.

Tatastha sakti is just one of those names that describes the jiva soul's position while in the material creation or while merged dormantly in the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

As explained above, in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana the jiva soul is NOT refered too as tatastha sakti Srila Prabhupada has clearly told us.

Therefore the jiva-tattva in their svarupa original positional bodily form is NOT known in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana as tatastha sakti.

Srila Prabhupada – ”Taṭastha means they are sometimes manifested and they are not sometimes manifested. So this material world is the taṭastha characteristics, and the spiritual world is the personal characteristics. So our effort is to get out of this taṭastha (conditioned) characteristics or material creation’’ (Lecture on CC Madhya-lila 20.354-358 — New York, December 28, 1966)

Then Prabhupada explains that the ‘’permanent feature’’ of the marginal living entity (jiva tattva) is above the ‘’influence of this tatastha sakti conditioned state in the material creation. 

In Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana the great majority of jiva tattvas (over 90%) choose to remain with Vishnu or Krishna and NEVER fall down to the material creation.

However, as we know, that can change at anytime due to free will meaning no jiva soul can claim they will never fall down over eternity. Srila Prabhupada also explains this fact.

Only when the marginal living entity (jiva soul) choose to leave Vaikuntha, only then does that fallen condition of the jiva soul is called tatastha sakti.

However, less that 10% of jiva tattvas in Vaikuntha fall to that condition of Tatastha-sakti by choosing to enter the material creation.

Taṭastha sakti is the "conditioned state" in the material creation, the "permanent characteristics" of jiva souls is their original position in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana.

Therefore the jiva souls in Vaikuntha can reject Krishna and leave anytime they want Prabhupada tells us.

Srila Prabhupada - "So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.” (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.)

Paramahamsa - “But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there is no return?

Srila Prabhupada - “There IS return, but that is voluntary, return is always there”.

Paramahamsa - “If we want”.

Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”.

Paramahamsa - “So we can come to the spiritual world and again return to the material World?”

Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”.

Paramahamsa - “Fall down?”

Srila Prabhupada - “Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go.” Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." It is free will. Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, "Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here." He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that." (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada – “So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, or one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krishna says, yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.” (Bhagavad Gita as it is. lecture, Mayapur, June 20, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada - "In the broader sense everyone comes from Krishna Loka. When one forgets Krishna he is conditioned, when one remembers Krishna he is liberated". (Letter to Mukunda, June 10, 1969)

Srila Prabhupada - "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately Maya covers us. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going". (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami June 1972 Australia)

Acyutananda - ''So what made the soul take birth in the material creation in the first place?''

Srila Prabhupada - ''In the first place?''

Acyutananda - ''What is the first birth? What is the cause of the first birth''.

Srila Prabhupada - ''Yes. That is stated in the Prema-vivarta:

krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare

nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare

We are eternal servants of Krsna but as soon as we want to become master, that is the beginning of our first birth in the material world. We have got independence. Krsna says, mamaivamso jiva bhutah—we are part and parcel of Krsna—so Krsna has got full independence, but we are minute; therefore we have got minute independence. Our business is to serve Krsna, but as soon as we give up this idea, we want to become master. That is the beginning of our material birth''. (Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.2--Hyderabad, April 11, 1975)

Acyutananda - ''But in the Gita it says, "Once coming there", he never returns to the material World."

Srila Prabhupada - ''But if he likes, he can return''.

Acyutananda - ''He can return?''

Srila Prabhupada - ''That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown''. (Morning Walk--February 19, 1976, Mayapur)

Those bogus gurus, sannyasis and mundane scholars who claim the jiva souls are ''generated from a clear sheet of consciousness'' are preaching nonsense impersonalism.

Their nonsense impersonal  philosophy claims there was originally a time when the jiva soul did not exist as a conscious individual active living entity, but was originally "generated from an impersonal imaginary place they have labelled Tatastha-sakti" which is bogus nonsense!

Srila Prabhupada - "There is no “ NEW” soul. “New'’ and “old'’ are due to this material body. But the soul is NEVER born and NEVER dies, so if there is no birth how there can be new soul'' (Letter to Jagadisa 7/9/1970)

There is no such thing as new souls originating from a place called Tatastha-sakti as Bhagavad Gita Chapter 2 Text 20 teaches-

''For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain''. (Bhagavad Gita Chapter 2 Text 20)

In other words, the jiva tattva has ALWAYS existed without beginning or end as individual jiva souls, so it is nonsense impersonalism to believe the jiva soul originates from some place in the Cosmos called Tatastha-sakti as fools preach.

No such place exist, it is simply Impersonalism. 

Although the individual jiva souls CAN fall down further and enter an "inactive dormant collective" state called the "impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman" 

But only after being disillusioned and fed up after suffering within the material creation for many births.

It is the material creation (through Maha Vishnu) that the jiva souls FIRST fall too. 

They first fall from their "original position" in either Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana.

In sastra Prabhupada explains Tatastha sakti is a name that means the "conditioned state" of the jiva soul but ONLY in the material creation or impersonal Brahmajyoti.

And there is "no such a place" called Tatastha sakti as explained above.

Sadly many foolish Gurus and their ignorant disciples who believe Tatastha sakti is a place from where the jiva souls (marginal energy) originates from, cannot understand that ALL jiva souls have originated from the Vaikuntha planets in the Spiritual World, and NOT some nonsense impersonal origin called.

Srila Prabhupada - ''Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness'' (Letter to: Revatinandana, Los Angeles 13 June, 1970)

The fact is, ALL individual jiva souls in the material creation, including those individual jiva souls who have merged inactively (dormant) in the impersonal Brahmajyoti, have ALL originated from the personal active spiritual pastimes going on in Goloka Vrindavana and Vaikuntha, and NOT some nonsense impersonal origin.

All jiva souls CAN therefore choose (because of free will) to leave Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana at anytime because of their freedom.

It has ALWAYS been this way.

In fact the material creation is where jiva souls first go to if they choose to reject Krishna.

And after experiencing the frustration of material existence for millions of births, they can enter a dormant bodiless inactive condition of consciousness called the impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman.

Fall down from Vaikuntha is NOT because of Maya but is because of "free will".

Maya or material energy does not exist in the Spiritual Planets but free will ALWAYS exits there.

Many in other sangas and their gurus cannot understand this fact.

I had big arguments about "the origin of the jiva soul" in the 1970s and have avoided there impersonal beliefs now for nearly 50 years!

They do NOT understand the deep meaning of Sastra that Prabhupada personally taught us, as partly explained in this post.

In simple terms, they cannot get their head around the concept of "free will" that DOES allow the jiva soul to leave Vaikuntha at anytime as Prabhupada taught us.

Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada - ''These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. (Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970)

It is NOT Maya causing one to leave or fall down from Vaikuntha because there is no material nature (Maya) in Vaikuntha that forces the jiva soul to leave Krishna.

Maya's temptation and material energy do NOT exist in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana.

There is no material cause for our fall down from Vaikuntha to the material creation.

However, what DOES exist eternally in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana, and is the ONLY cause of our fall down, is "free will" or the ability to make one's own choices of "this side or that side".

Krishna NEVER interferes with the jiva soul's "free will", even when they choose to reject Him.

To follow Krishna or not follow Krishna is based on "choice" or "free will".

Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krishna, we have a perfect relationship with Krishna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we’re already serving Krishna?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.”

Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…”

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire.

Devotee – “In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. You forced Krishna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, “My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there.” But he insists, “Oh, I must go. I must go.” “All right, you go at your risk and suffer. What can be done? So because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, therefore you have acquired the quality of your father, so God does not interfere with your independence. If you persist that “I must go and enjoy independently,” so God says, “All right, you can go.” This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy”. (Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974)

It is foolish to sentimentally believe once the jiva souls are in Vaikuntha, they can again never fall down.

The belief that "Not even the leaves fall down from Vaikuntha" is silly sentimental bogus nonsense.

Krishna NEVER interferes with the "free will" of the jiva souls because if He did, then genuine loving exchanges of voluntary giving and accepting love could never exist.

In fact, we are all here because long, long ago we also chose to leave Vaikuntha to enter the material creation Prabhupada has explained.

Returning back home  back to Godhead to Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana is not necessarily permanent Prabhupada explains . 

That choice to stay or go is also the jiva souls choice too, although it is a fact the majority, over 90% of jiva souls do choose to say in either Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana and not choose to enter the temporary material creation.

The point is, remaining in Vaikuntha is not just a "one way" decision that Krishna makes on His own for the jiva souls.

No, a real loving relationships can only work when there is a "two way" exchange based on voluntary contributions  mutual reciprocation and repect.

This also means loving service to Krishna can NEVER exist without free will.

For loving devotion to truly exist between Krishna and the marginal living entity (jiva-soul), the jiva souls MUST also have their freedom (free will) to choose that includes choosing  to"stay or leave" Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana at anytime.

Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will. But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone either. That is not life". (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)

Srila Prabhupada - ''As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice," "Yes," Kṛṣṇa says, "yes, you can go." Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Kṛṣṇa is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." It is free will''. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course, May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada - “So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly or one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot fall down, that is not independence, that is force. Therefore Krishna says, yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.” (Los Angeles, June 23, 1975)

Therefore returning to Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana is NOT necessarily a permanent position the jiva soul has eternally achieved Prabhupada explains. This is because at anytime the jiva soul can AGAIN  fall down if they choose.

The jiva soul can leave anytime they want however, most CHOOSE (over 90%) to stay in Vaikuntha Prabhupada has explained.

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence therefore you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God you have got independence, proportionately, therefore if he likes he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We CAN misuse that. (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976)

Syamasundara - "But can we predict returning back home back to Godhead will be permanent? Can we predict that? Just like many prisoners leave the prison, however some do come back?''

Srila Prabhupada - "No, there is no permanent effect because we have got little independence. There is nothing permanent because you can misuse your independence at any time".

Syamasundara - "And some come back?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes. Otherwise there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do this, you can do that. "All right. Whatever you like."

Devotee - "Then he is so many times falling down, again and again, so will he eventually permanently come back?"

Srila Prabhupada - "He has got independence, therefore there is always the possibility he can misuse his independence, he CAN fall down. That's why when a man is released from the prison house, that does not mean permanently because he can come back again, the general law is NOT to come back, but if he likes, he can come back, otherwise what is the meaning of independence? Just like one becomes free from the prison house, naturally he should not go there again". (Discussions with Syamasundara > Henri Bergson)

For those who believe no one can ever fall down from Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana have NOT understood these clear points explained here by Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada gives the best answer by saying ORIGINALLY we are all nitya-siddha because we were with Krishna in His pastimes.

Srila Prabhupada - "Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be a very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going". (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972 Australia)

Srila Prabhupada - "There are two kinds of marginal living entities: nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. The actual constitutional position of every marginal living entity is nitya-siddha. By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can become again nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas AGAIN nitya-siddha" (New York Lecture on Caitanya-Caritamrta, July 13, 1976)

Srila Prabhupada - "By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can also become siddha. He can become again nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas again nitya-siddha, to bring them. It is a difficult task." (London lecture on Bhagavad-Gita 13-14, July 14, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada - "Nitya-baddhas are within this material world. Beginning from Brahma down to a small ant, insignificant ant, they are all nitya-baddha. Anyone who is in this material world they are nitya-baddha". (Lecture on Bhagavad-Gita 13-14, July 14, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada - "In the broader sense everyone comes from Krishna Loka. When one forgets Krishna he is conditioned (nitya-baddha), when one remembers Krishna he is liberated (nitya-siddha)". (Letter to Mukunda, June 10, 1969)

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually, every living entity is eternally uncontaminated, although he may be in the material touch. This is the version of the Vedas. Asanga ayam purusha-the living entity is uncontaminated. Just like when there is a drop of oil in water you can immediately distinguish the oil from the water, and the water never mixes with the oil. Similarly, a living entity, although in material contact, is always distinct from the matter". (Letter to Mukunda, June 10, 1969)

Nitya-siddha is when we are in our natural pure bodily state of reality, eternally liberated in Goloka, serving God or Krishna.

Nitya-baddha state is when we are in our unnatural impure state of transitory reality eternally conditioned in the material creation serving one's selfish interests, unaware of their permanently real nitya-siddha authentic self in Goloka.

One is originally nitya-siddha or fully Krishna conscious in their original position.

Srila Prabhupada - ''Kṛṣṇa says, "yes, you can leave if you want otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will and Kṛṣṇa is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." It is free will''. (Morning Walk, May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will. But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone either. That is not life". (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)

Loving reciprocation, voluntary exchanges, and freedom of expression can only exist when "free will" is initiated and acted upon (the ability to make your own choices) in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.

Only when the individual jiva souls (marginal living entities) have that "free will" that allows them to voluntarily choose to make their own decisions, "one way or the other", without being forced by Krishna, can genuine loving service in a "two way" exchange, can begin to exist..*...