Thursday, June 29, 2023

Let's properly understand Krsna's promise that the jiva-souls will never again fall down from the spiritual world, is that really true?

In Bhagavad Gita As It Is Krsna makes the promise that once returning to Vaikuntha, the jiva-souls will never again fall down to the material creation. 

However, the jiva-souls also have their choice too, and therefore can accept or reject Krsna's promise if they choose, otherwise there is no meaning to having free will Prabhupada has explained.

Although 90% of jiva-souls do not choose to fall down, they can leave at anytime if they choose, otherwise there is no meaning to having free will.

Srila Prabhupada explains above, only less than 10% of jiva-souls in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana choose to leave and enter the material creation.

Krsna's love for the jiva-souls is more powerful than the jiva-soul's love for Kṛṣṇa. In fact, it is Krsna's love that overwhelmes the jiva-souls and greatly influence their free-will that keeps most of them (over 90%) in the spiritual world. 

Dr. John Mize – "Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?"

Srila Prabhupada – "No, there are… Majority, 90%, they are always good, they never fall down."

Dr. John Mize – "So we’re among the 10%"

Srila Prabhupada – "Yes, or less than that. In the material, whole material world all the living entities they are… Just like in the prison house, there is some population, but they are not majority. The majority of the population, they are outside the prison house. Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the spiritual world. Only a few fall down."

Dr. John Mize – "Are more souls falling all the time?"

Srila Prabhupada – "Not all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence… Everyone is not liking to misuse the independence. The same example: Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal. So their shelter must be also constructed. It is very easy to understand. Not that cent percent population will be criminal, but government knows that some of them will be. Otherwise why they construct prison house also? One may say, “Where is the criminal? You are constructing…” Government knows, there will be criminal. So if the ordinary government can know, why God cannot know? Because there is tendency."

Dr. John Mize – "From where does that tendency come?"

Srila Prabhupada – "Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krsna says,yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like." (BG As It Is. Lecture, Mayapur, June 20, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada has made it clear that if we do not have free will in both Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana to leave at anytime we choose, then we are no better than dead lifeless stone.

If Krsna denies the jiva-souls to again fall down from the Vaikuntha planets or Goloka-Vrindavana, then He is denying them their free will, making the jiva-souls no more than mindless puppets on a string controlled by the puppet master.

In other words, there must also be the free will to reject Krsna too otherwise loving voluntary exchanges with Krsna can never freely exist.

So Kṛṣṇa’s promise that the jiva-souls will never again fall down, is a two-way street meaning the jiva-souls are NOT obliged to accept Krsna's promise nor would Krsna force it.

Srila Prabhupada  - "Free will means that you can act wrongly. That is free will. Unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then? If I act only one sided, that means I have no free will. Because we act sometimes wrongly, that means free will."

Hayagriva - "A man may know better but still act wrongly."

Srila Prabhupada -"Yes, but that is free will, he can misuse it. Just like a thief, he knows that his stealing is bad, but still he does it. That is free will. He cannot check his greediness, so in spite of knowing he is doing the wrong thing, he will be punished, he knows; he has seen another thief, he was punished, he was put into prison— everything he knows, but still he steals. Why? Misuse of free will. Unless there is misuse of free will, there is no question of free will." (Philosophy Discussions with Srila Prabhupada and Rene Descartes 1976)

Srila Prabhupada – "So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, or one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one-way only, that is not independence that is force." (LA, California June 23, 1975)

Denying the jiva-souls their natural eternal constitutional right of self-expression and free will (freedom) is impersonalism.

If Krsna did force His will and forced the jiva-souls to love Him, then how can that be real genuine love as Prabhupada explains?

Srila Prabhupada - "Love is a reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force, no, Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!" (Washington DC July 8, 1976)

Krsna does promise in Bhagavad Gita that the jiva-souls will never again fall down to the material creation once returning to Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana however,  Krsna always allows the jiva-souls their right to accept or reject that promise too.

Even with Krsna's promise there MUST be a choice otherwise by forcing the jiva-souls to remain in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana, can be seen as interfering with the free will, independence and individual choices of the jiva-souls.

This is because the jiva-souls are entitled to making their own decisions too without being dictated too even by Krsna, otherwise what is the point of having free will?

The fact is Krsna will never make that decision for the jiva-souls; they must voluntarily choose for themselves; otherwise their free will is violated. 

There can be no question of love if the jiva-souls have no right to choose for themselves.

Acyutananda - "But in the Bhagavad Gita it says, once in the spiritual world, one never again returns to the material world?"

Srila Prabhupada - "But if he likes he can return."

Acyutananda - "He can return?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, that is voluntary, that independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown." (Morning Walk Feb 19, 1976, Mayapur)

Devotee – "In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it says that Krsna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krsna did not want us to come, then why are we here?"

Srila Prabhupada – "Yes, you forced Krsna to allow you to come, just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, "My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there, but he insists, "Oh, I must go. I must go. All right, you go at your risk and suffer. What can be done?" So because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, therefore you have acquired the quality of your father, so God does not interfere with your independence, your free will. If you persist that "I must go and enjoy independently," God says, "All right, you can go." This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy." (Melb, Australia June 25, 1974)

Paramahamsa - "But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return?"

Srila Prabhupada - "There is return, that is voluntary, return is there."

Paramahamsa - "If we want."

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes."

Paramahamsa - "So we can come to the spiritual world and return?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes."

Paramahamsa - "Fall down?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, as soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice, yes, Krsna says, yes, you go and enjoy the material world, otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." Just like some of our students sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will. Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, "Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here." He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that."

Paramahamsa - "So our desire to enjoy, we achieve these material bodies; and our desire to achieve Krsna brings us to our natural position."

Srila Prabhupada - ''Yes." (Morning Walk Cheviot Golf Course, May 13, 1973, LA)

Returning home back to Godhead is not necessarily permanent Prabhupada explains, that choice to stay or go is also up to the jiva-souls too. 

Syamasundara - "But can we predict that returning back home back to Godhead will be permanent? Can we predict that? Just like many prisoners leave the prison some end up back there?''

Srila Prabhupada - "No, there is no such thing as permanent because we have got little independence. There is nothing permanent because you can misuse your independence at any time."

Syamasundara - "And some come back?"

Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, otherwise there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do this; you can do that. All right. Whatever you like."

Devotee - "Then he is so many times falling down, again and again, so will he eventually permanently come back?"

Srila Prabhupada - "He has got independence; therefore, there is always the possibility he can misuse his independence, he can fall again if he wants; that choice is always there. That's why when a man is released from the prison house, that does not mean it is permanent because he can again come back however, the general law is not to come back, but if he likes, he can come back, otherwise what is the meaning of having independence and free will? Just like one becomes free from the prison house, naturally, he should not go there again." (Discussions with Syamasundara and Henri Bergson 1976)

Srila Prabhupada - "So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?’ I immediately fall down, that is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, "If I could become the master." They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking he can."

Vipina Purandara - "Why doesn’t Krsna protect us from that desire?"

Srila Prabhupada - "He is protecting you. He says, "You rascal, don’t desire an independent existence without Me, surrender unto Me." But you are rascal; you do not do this."

Vipina Purandara - "Why doesn’t Krsna save me from thinking like that?"

Srila Prabhupada - "That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me." Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?" (July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C. USA)

Srila Prabhupada told us in his room in 1972 that over 90% of jiva-souls never CHOOSE to fall down but less than 10% do choose to leave a Vaikuntha planet or Goloka-Vrindavana.

Only the marginal living entities (jiva-souls) can fall down and that is why they are called marginal - sometimes in the spiritual world and sometimes covered in the material world. 

Free will is what causes fall down and NOT maya and material energy because there is no maya or material energy on the Vaikuntha planets and Goloka Vrindavana but there is free will which eternal exists there.^*^




















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